Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

robinph · 23-03-2017 07:34PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Crashing into human beings (an achievement to his mind) and stabbing a policeman who was an obstacle on his path to his target, or his next target, all of that does not really seem like he would have considered it a failure, or that he wasn't that intent or committed or murderous or dangerous,whether or not you can see a more..efficient way he could have done it, doesn't really make a difference.

What it does show though is that there isn't any great organisation, strategy or planning behind this attack and the lack of other attacks on other much softer targets shows that there isn't a great number of people out there actually wanting to attack either.

Widdershins · 23-03-2017 07:38PM

robinph wrote: »

What it does show though is that there isn't any great organisation, strategy or planning behind this attack and the lack of other attacks on other much softer targets shows that there isn't a great number of people out there actually wanting to attack either.

Another aspect is the committed ones having gone to Syria.

Grayson · 23-03-2017 07:46PM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I couldn't care less what his state of mind was at the time or why he set out to hurt people. He's a murderous scumbag who intentionally killed innocent people. This topic, I see from the left everytime something like this happens, just meanders away from the main discussion of problems associated with Islam, and the negative impact it's having on Europe in recent years. The only reason to bring up mental health is to find how out how they are recruiting people, not using it an excuse for what these scumbags do.

If, and note I said IF, mental health is an issue then it's important. When some crazed loon on the right does something it's excused by mental health. It's obviously got nothing to do with right wing beliefs. He couldn't have been inspired by right wing beliefs. It couldn't be someone like Trump is responsible.

And it's very important to learn why these happen.

Firstly it helps us stop this happening again. It helps in profiling.

Secondly, if you don't care why and you're unwilling to investigate why then it's because you have predetermined why it happened. Evidence doesn't matter to you. That's wrong. It means that you're acting on an irrational belief and dismissing other possibilities before evidence is even available.

CoolHandBandit · 23-03-2017 07:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you not reading his mind now?
Maybe he inadvertently crashed the car and was trying to escape?

Not sure if serious?

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 07:53PM

Grayson wrote: »

If, and note I said IF, mental health is an issue then it's important. When some crazed loon on the right does something it's excused by mental health. It's obviously got nothing to do with right wing beliefs. He couldn't have been inspired by right wing beliefs. It couldn't be someone like Trump is responsible.

And it's very important to learn why these happen.

Firstly it helps us stop this happening again. It helps in profiling.

Secondly, if you don't care why and you're unwilling to investigate why then it's because you have predetermined why it happened. Evidence doesn't matter to you. That's wrong. It means that you're acting on an irrational belief and dismissing other possibilities before evidence is even available.

I deleted my reply before you replied again because it wasn't a fair one. What annoys me is the tone of some of the replies in this thread saying buzzwords like ineffective, forgotten in a few days, cars do damage too, lone wolf and so on ( 7 others were arrested in connection with this attack afaik? ). It's incredibly insulting to the victims and the victims families who died. So when I posted harshly some of those posts were swaying on my emotions. I was reading the stories on the victims earlier, one was a wife, one was an American tourist. When you see the photos of the victims it sinks in more so, rather than just seeing a figure of 5 dead in a newspaper.

I agree with you that it's important to find out why people are becoming radicalised, but to be fair, the security and Intelligence agencies have probably figured that out years ago, that's not to say individual cases shouldn't be investigated. My problem with the mental health argument is not that it isn't a factor in why someone would do this, it's that people use it, and many have in the last few pages in this thread, to differentiate from previous Islamic attacks and make the attack into a lone wolf type of thing, and do it intentionally without wanting to realise or admit there's a bigger problem at play here. I've seen headlines from liberal media outlets saying the same thing. My view is that it's purely deflection, all these attacks have one thing in common, Islam.

jmayo · 23-03-2017 08:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The IRA are likely accountable for more deaths in Britain & Ireland than Muslim Extremist attacks in Europe & America. Should all Irish people not be banned from travelling, locked up, or murdered because of the actions of a few?

Nope, because that would be silly.

Nope they are not.
1,935 civilians (including ex combatants) were killed during troubles in Northern Ireland and some of thsoe were killed by security forces as in Bloody Sunday or by loyalist paramilitaries as in Shankill Butchers or the likes of Billy Wright.

1060 security forces were killed UK and Ireland.
368 Republicans paramilitaries were killed and 162 loyalist paramilitaries were killed.

In 911 alone the islamists accounted for 2,850 civilians.
I include 343 firemen as non combatans, but not the 55 military personnel or 72 police.

And that doesn't even count ...
London attacks 2005 - 52 victims
Madrid attacks 2004 - 192 victims
Paris attacks Bataclan - 130 victims
Paris attacks Charlie Hebdo - 12 victims
Berlin attack - 12 dead
Brussels attack - 32 victims
Nice attack - 86 victims
Moscow theater - 133 victims
Moscow metro - 38 victims

Moscow is part of Europe and I am not even counting Beslan school massacre or lots of other attacks in Russia.
Nor am I counting all the isolated atatcks like the beheading of Lee Rigby, the beheading of a Fr Jacques Hamel.

Care to remind us how many beheading the Irish terrorists carried out ?

Your type of whataboutery shytology needs to be confronted.

Oh afaik PIRA and the like aren't still operating.
Perhaps one of the sinn fein supporters who post here and share your mindset on muslim immigration and the like might set you straight on that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Since you mention the Quran, how many verses in the Bible call for Catholics to kill people? I mean, should you not raise eyebrows at Catholics..?

Ehh care to point out those verses in the New Testament ?

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Yes but we're white and speak english so it's different... :pac::pac:

Khalid Kelly was white and spoke English.
And Samantha Louise Lewthwaite also fits that description.

humanji wrote: »

Not a single person on this thread has done that, as far as I can see.

Actually by dragging pictures of PIRA bombing of Baltic Exchange bombing, Canary Wharf bombing, Bishopsgate bombing to claim the PIRA did more damage to London is actually trying to lessen and downplay what happened.

wes wrote: »

Did Robinson condemn the terror attack in Canada against Muslims, by a far right nutter? The far right are hardly in a position to claim any morale superitority considering there own terror attacks.

All we keep hearing is about the Far Rights terror attacks.

So come on then list them.

I will start you off and give you
Anders Behring Breivik - Norway - 77 victims
Alexandre Bissonnette - Quebec - 6 victims
Thomas Mair - Jo cox - 1 victim
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols - Oklahoma - 168 victims

Yes there are others from round the world spread over the last 20/30 years, but the numbers still only add up to some single attacks by islamists.
And no that doesn't make them any less evil, bad or reprehensible.

And I am not even going to start trying to list the daily islamist attacks within the muslim world itself.

I just want the shyteology where they are used as excuse and the whataboutery to stop.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Britain left the region known as 'Sudan" in terrible sh1t after colonisation. Saudi Arabia gets a free pass because of oil. Nigeria??? Bangladesh????

If you bomb the sh1t out of countries you will get a response. Tragically and wrongly but there it is.

Did they bomb the shyte out of Birmingham because that is where Khalid Masood lives or Kent where he was born ?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How the courts view his behaviour is a different matter. The fact remains that his behaviour was not that of a sane person. He was most obviously insane at the time of the attack. 'Insane' definition: exhibiting a severely disordered state of mind, unable to think in a clear or sensible way.

Were all the PIRA terrorists insane ?
Were ETA insane ?
Were Red Brigade insane ?

Why do we now suddenly start excusing terrorists as insane and suffering mental illness ?
If anything it is a gross insult to people really suffering from mental illness.

Irish Praetorian · 23-03-2017 08:11PM

If we continue along this line of differential analysis and explanation of terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years, one cannot ignore the spectre of Islam in cutting across many of the conventional explanations proffered. Appeals to economic disadvantage don't really fit considering groups from greater and lesser states of economic disadvantage tend not to engage in such terrorist acts. Mental illness also doesn't really fit the bill unless one is prepared to make the argument that people of the Islamic faith or from those ethnicities which tend to contribute the most Muslims are predisposed towards mental illness. It also appear to be rather difficult to assemble a coherent model of Islamist terrorists as hailing from a single social class or level of educational attainment (though the presence of successful third level graduates amongst this group is usually understated).

If anyone can suggest a common thread linking these bombers apart from their apparently fundamentalist Islamist beliefs (notwithstanding how theologically nuanced or developed they were) I would be fascinated to here it, because apart from one purported unifying theme of drug use which I have heard put forth (by Peter Hitchens I think but I can't be sure), it strikes me that there is none other. Failing that, we are left potentially with the rather unappetising conclusion that it is simply belief in the Islamic faith alone that predisposes individuals towards acts of violent extremism, and that is a conclusion I would severely prefer was not true.

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2017 08:11PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Look at the image with the sequence of eventshttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/22/attack-houses-parliament-london-what-we-know-so-far
. I am not aware of any doubt about his intent to hit those people, so why you are now implying it was accidental is a mystery.

I'll leave it at that.

You read his mind not me. How do we know his intention wasn't to hit people on the Bridge and keep going to hit others. That may have been his intention and crashing the car changed it.

ceadaoin. · 23-03-2017 08:13PM

Grayson wrote: »

If, and note I said IF, mental health is an issue then it's important. When some crazed loon on the right does something it's excused by mental health. It's obviously got nothing to do with right wing beliefs. He couldn't have been inspired by right wing beliefs. It couldn't be someone like Trump is responsible.

And it's very important to learn why these happen.

Firstly it helps us stop this happening again. It helps in profiling.

Surely Islamic fundamentalism is about as far right as you can go on the spectrum? Can you not see that?

What trump inspired attacks are you referring to that have been excused by mental health? As far as I can recall its only these type of terrorists who are instantly labelled "mentally ill"

Irish Praetorian · 23-03-2017 08:13PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You read his mind not me. How do we know his intention wasn't to hit people on the Bridge and keep going to hit others. That may have been his intention and crashing the car changed it.

We are in the realm of speculation here but surely the possession of a 6 inch knife and his subsequent stabbing of a police officer is indicative of both planning and malicious intent?

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2017 08:24PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

We are in the realm of speculation here but surely the possession of a 6 inch knife and his subsequent stabbing of a police officer is indicative of both planning and malicious intent?

This is speculation too, but would raising hell in the adjacent street and raising the alarm not indicate a lack of a thought through plan if your target was the HOP?

A bit like the 9-11 bombers speaking loudly about what they were about to do in duty free or the ticket desk.

I'll stick with my theory that this was a badly thought out, rather desperate attack rather than a sign of an escalation or a ' major' threat to western civilisation. Tragic and all as it was.

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 08:25PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Surely Islamic fundamentalism is about as far right as you can go on the spectrum? Can you not see that?

What trump inspired attacks are you referring to that have been excused by mental health? As far as I can recall its only these type of terrorists who are instantly labelled "mentally ill"

And are excused by saying other terrorist groups killed people so it's nothing out of the ordinary, basically saying anything without bringing Islam or immigration from different cultures into it. It's deflection, and this problem is going to eat the left away unless they remove their proverbial heads from the sand and admit there's a problem.

jmayo · 23-03-2017 08:27PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If we continue along this line of differential analysis and explanation of terrorist attacks in Europe in recent years, one cannot ignore the spectre of Islam in cutting across many of the conventional explanations proffered. Appeals to economic disadvantage don't really fit considering groups from greater and lesser states of economic disadvantage tend not to engage in such terrorist acts. Mental illness also doesn't really fit the bill unless one is prepared to make the argument that people of the Islamic faith or from those ethnicities which tend to contribute the most Muslims are predisposed towards mental illness. It also appear to be rather difficult to assemble a coherent model of Islamist terrorists as hailing from a single social class or level of educational attainment (though the presence of successful third level graduates amongst this group is usually understated).

If anyone can suggest a common thread linking these bombers apart from their apparently fundamentalist Islamist beliefs (notwithstanding how theologically nuanced or developed they were) I would be fascinated to here it, because apart from one purported unifying theme of drug use which I have heard put forth (by Peter Hitchens I think but I can't be sure), it strikes me that there is none other. Failing that, we are left potentially with the rather unappetising conclusion that it is simply belief in the Islamic faith alone that predisposes individuals towards acts of violent extremism, and that is a conclusion I would severely prefer was not true.

Well we have in all these attacks around Western World (Europe, US, Asia) the attackers have had ...
different nationalities
different races
different social classes
different levels of education
different education systems
different ages
different genders
different sexual preferences
different religious upbringing

The only common denominator I find is the religion at time of death.

Nah it can't have feck all to do with that. :rolleyes:

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 08:31PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'll stick with my theory that this was a badly thought out, rather desperate attack rather than a sign of an escalation or a ' major' threat to western civilisation. Tragic and all as it was.

What difference does that make, is it some sort of moral ground you're desperately clinging onto for self vindication?

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2017 08:32PM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

And are excused by saying other terrorist groups killed people so it's nothing out of the ordinary, basically saying anything without bringing Islam or immigration from different cultures into it. It's deflection, and this problem is going to eat the left away unless they remove their proverbial heads from the sand and admit there's a problem.

I dont think anyone is denying there is a problem. It's the scale of the problem or from how many people the problem is coming from.

Widdershins · 23-03-2017 08:32PM

Grayson wrote: »

If, and note I said IF, mental health is an issue then it's important. When some crazed loon on the right does something it's excused by mental health. It's obviously got nothing to do with right wing beliefs. He couldn't have been inspired by right wing beliefs. It couldn't be someone like Trump is responsible.

And it's very important to learn why these happen.

Firstly it helps us stop this happening again. It helps in profiling.

Secondly, if you don't care why and you're unwilling to investigate why then it's because you have predetermined why it happened. Evidence doesn't matter to you. That's wrong. It means that you're acting on an irrational belief and dismissing other possibilities before evidence is even available.

Given that it's described as Islamic terrorist attack and also claimed by Isil, and there's been no suggestion of particular mental problems, why would people continue to search for other possible causes? The time for that has now passed by in the case of that attack.

Noddyholder · 23-03-2017 08:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is speculation too, but would raising hell in the adjacent street and raising the alarm not indicate a lack of a thought through plan if your target was the HOP?

A bit like the 9-11 bombers speaking loudly about what they were about to do in duty free or the ticket desk.

I'll stick with my theory that this was a badly thought out, rather desperate attack rather than a sign of an escalation or a ' major' threat to western civilisation. Tragic and all as it was.

I wouldn't think its an escalation, But its certainly a new tactic in letting lone people carry out attacks as they see fit, Lone attackers can plan & do what they do without involving anyone else thus lessing the leaks to the several security services who monitor them & there communications etc ...Just mo.

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2017 08:37PM

Noddyholder wrote: »

I wouldn't think its an escalation, But its certainly a new tactic in letting lone people carry out attacks as they see fit, Lone attackers can plan & do what they do without involving anyone else thus lessing the leaks to the several security services who monitor them & there communications etc ...Just mo.

And if the scale of the problem is as big as some of the scaremongers suggest we should be having these attacks not just everyday but every hour.

Still waiting for a rational reason why that isn't happening. Millions of cars, thousands of packed streets and apparently hordes of Muslims intent on destroying western civilisation.

Nomis21 · 23-03-2017 08:39PM

Most recent figures for death on London's roads:

204 killed by road accidents in one year.
4 people killed by terrorist incidents in one year.

Yes it is terrible what happened yesterday in London but if terrorists killed as many people as road accidents then the city would be in lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/davehillblog/2010/jun/22/transport-for-london-road-safety-statistics-crap-cycling-waltham-forst-blog

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 08:39PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I dont think anyone is denying there is a problem. It's the scale of the problem or from how many people the problem is coming from.

Certain Politicians on the left do deny it's existence, or at the very least downplay it's existent to the point it's insignificant, and so do a large percentage of the general public. Even without extremism, there is a culture clash that impacts society negatively. Merkel has even admitted this, saying multiple times multiculturalism has failed in Germany.
It's clearly evident in this thread there's people who see no link between religion and the increasing number of attacks in Europe over the past couple of years.

CoolHandBandit · 23-03-2017 08:48PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Most recent figures for death on London's roads:

204 killed by road accidents in one year.
4 people killed by terrorist incidents in one year.

Yes it is terrible what happened yesterday in London but if terrorists killed as many people as road accidents then the city would be in lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/davehillblog/2010/jun/22/transport-for-london-road-safety-statistics-crap-cycling-waltham-forst-blog

I know there is a point in there somewhere but I'll be darned it i can figure it out.

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 08:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if the scale of the problem is as big as some of the scaremongers suggest we should be having these attacks not just everyday but every hour.

Still waiting for a rational reason why that isn't happening. Millions of cars, thousands of packed streets and apparently hordes of Muslims intent on destroying western civilisation.

You ignore the foiled attacks, the people arrested we don't hear about it, and the constant monitoring of such activity that puts strain / fear on a Country, their Airports/Borders, to the point large resources have to be dedicated in preventing such attacks.

They're not hard to find, just google foiled terrorist attacks. It's not surprising to see the number quadruple in the last 2 years according to Wikipedia.

ricero · 23-03-2017 08:54PM

Liberals has caused an enviorment for these terroists to thrive. Europe has become a soft touch and easy target

Nomis21 · 23-03-2017 08:57PM

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

I know there is a point in there somewhere but I'll be darned it i can figure it out.

My point is that you are 50 times more likely to be killed in a road accident in London than killed by a terrorist.

America attacked Iraq to rob their oil and terrorism and increased car traffic and accidents is the result. I thought the connection was obvious?

Noddyholder · 23-03-2017 09:02PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Most recent figures for death on London's roads:

204 killed by road accidents in one year.
4 people killed by terrorist incidents in one year.

Yes it is terrible what happened yesterday in London but if terrorists killed as many people as road accidents then the city would be in lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/davehillblog/2010/jun/22/transport-for-london-road-safety-statistics-crap-cycling-waltham-forst-blog

I don't know why this is used,

The point of a terror attack is to create terror, not just kill & maim, London was on lockdown yesterday, airports & elsewhere where on a higher alert, it got news headlines everywhere in the world, There was an uneasy feeling around London & other major European cities today, You don't get that with a car accident. Terrorism, its a physiological type of warfare .

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2017 09:05PM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

You ignore the foiled attacks, the people arrested we don't hear about it, and the constant monitoring of such activity that puts strain / fear on a Country, their Airports/Borders, to the point large resources have to be dedicated in preventing such attacks.

They're not hard to find, just google foiled terrorist attacks. It's not surprising to see the number quadruple in the last 2 years according to Wikipedia.

I agreed already, there is a problem. My problem is with those who say that there are hordes of Muslims waiting to cause problems.
A car attack is a simple act to carry out and more or less unstoppable and radical Muslims have asked that they be carried out.
If there are hordes of Muslims waiting, where are all these attacks.
Still waiting for this to be addressed.

Del.Monte · 23-03-2017 09:07PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

My point is that you are 50 times more likely to be killed in a road accident in London than killed by a terrorist.

America attacked Iraq to rob their oil and terrorism and increased car traffic and accidents is the result. I thought the connection was obvious?

I'm tired of hearing this old mantra - please provide a link showing exactly how America robbed Iraq's oil. Seriously.

prinzeugen · 23-03-2017 09:13PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

My point is that you are 50 times more likely to be killed in a road accident in London than killed by a terrorist.

America attacked Iraq to rob their oil and terrorism and increased car traffic and accidents is the result. I thought the connection was obvious?

So it is just a big US conspiracy to kill off the UK population?

What happens to the people that dont get killed by cars or terrorists?

Ah.. Forgot.. Chemtrails..

Noddyholder · 23-03-2017 09:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I agreed already, there is a problem. My problem is with those who say that there are hordes of Muslims waiting to cause problems.
A car attack is a simple act to carry out and more or less unstoppable and radical Muslims have asked that they be carried out.
If there are hordes of Muslims waiting, where are all these attacks.
Still waiting for this to be addressed.

I cant personally really answer that specific question as why there is not more attacks, This is what Europol said in Dec 16.

Further attacks in the EU, both by lone actors and groups, are likely to be attempted.

Estimates from some intelligence services indicate several dozen people directed by IS may be currently present in Europe with a capability to commit terrorist attacks.

2 In addition to France and Belgium, all other EU Member States that are part of the US-led coalition against IS may be targeted by terrorists led or inspired by IS.

3 The most probable scenario is the use of the same modus operandi, including the same types of weapons, used in earlier attacks.

4 If IS is defeated or severely weakened in Syria/Iraq by the coalition forces, there may be an increased rate in the return of foreign fighters and their families from the region to the EU or to other conflict areas.

5 Counter-terrorism experts expect that IS will start planning and dispatching attacks from Libya.

6 Modi operandi employed in Syria and Iraq, such as the use of car bombs, extortion and kidnappings may be employed as methods of attack in the EU.

7 The apparent preference for soft targets means that attacking critical infrastructure such as power grids and nuclear facilities is currently not a priority for IS.

8 Elements of the Syrian refugee diaspora may be vulnerable to radicalisation once in Europe and may be targeted by extremist recruiters. Given that it is in the interests of IS to inflame the migration crisis to polarise the EU population and turn sections of it against those seeking asylum, some infiltration of refugee camps and other refugee/migrant groups is likely.

9 Contacts between terrorists and career criminals are generally of a very pragmatic and opportunistic character, and for very specific purposes only. However, the relative incidence of such cases in which there are connections appears to have increased. Typically this is because terrorists are known for previous criminal activity and/or because they make use of organised crime networks in the preparation of attacks, e.g. to obtain false identity documents and/or firearms.

10 What should not be overlooked is that IS is not the only terrorist organisation with the intent and capability to carry out attacks against the West, or to inspire individuals and groups residing in EU Member States to do so. Al Qaeda and / or Al-Nusra affiliated or inspired groups and individuals continue to pose a serious threat to Member States of the EU and to Western interests in general.

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwio1vnDt-3SAhVCvBQKHQetBAMQFgghMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.europol.europa.eu%2Fnewsroom%2Fnews%2Fislamic-state-changing-terror-tactics-to-maintain-threat-in-europe&usg=AFQjCNEyKd2EpDEt1RQeUVE09qu33cmaog

Hank Scorpio · 23-03-2017 09:21PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I agreed already, there is a problem. My problem is with those who say that there are hordes of Muslims waiting to cause problems.
A car attack is a simple act to carry out and more or less unstoppable and radical Muslims have asked that they be carried out.
If there are hordes of Muslims waiting, where are all these attacks.
Still waiting for this to be addressed.

I don't think all Muslims are bad, it's a minority, but would you not agree there's a problem with integration taking big numbers of immigrants from terror prone regions who have vastly different cultures? Merkel does.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/14/angela-merkel-multiculturalism-is-a-sham/?utm_term=.93abe64e5217

"Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’ ”

The extremism is the cherry on the cake, but both problems go hand in hand with each other. Mass immigration from these regions gives extremists a platform to thrive and recruit more. Terrorists slip through the cracks or those susceptible to terrorism, and the rest bring societal problems with vastly different cultures which imposes negatively on our way of life.

Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

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