Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Alun · 21-03-2017 10:17AM

Parapara2017 wrote: »

From what I hear from talking to those in the emergency services, and listening to interviews, they would rather be called and not needed than needed and not called. I like to think that's how the crew felt as well, and from watching the various interviews with Cpt Fitzpatrick, it certainly seems that way.

This is very true. I know a number of people involved in volunteer emergency services, MRT and SARDA, and a more dedicated and selfless group of people you'll never meet. I've often mentioned to them when I've read online of a callout that turned out to be about nothing at all in the end that if it was me I'd be annoyed at whoever had called them out, but to a man they all say exactly what you say, that they'd rather be called out and not needed than for someone to needlessly suffer.

irishgeo · 21-03-2017 10:32AM

so we know the aircraft hit the rocks. What we still dont know is why?

edit to clarify: we know the tail section appears to have hit the rocks.

skallywag · 21-03-2017 10:39AM

irishgeo wrote: »

so we know the aircraft hit the rocks. What we still dont know is why?

At the risk of stating the obvious it is not possible to definitively know why this happened until the investigation has been completed. At the bare minimum the flight recorders will first of all need to be analyzed.

Gadgetman496 · 21-03-2017 10:53AM

irishgeo wrote: »

so we know the aircraft hit the rocks. What we still dont know is why?

Do we though?

We know that parts of the craft may have come into contact with the rocks but has it been confirmed that those parts were still attached to the craft at time of impact?

smurfjed · 21-03-2017 10:58AM

We know that parts of the craft may have come into contact with the rocks but has it been confirmed that those parts were still attached to the craft at time of impact?

Thats pretty wild speculation, but if you are going to follow that train of thought, how else do you think that the parts ended up on the Island?

skallywag · 21-03-2017 11:01AM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Do we though?

We know that parts of the craft may have come into contact with the rocks but has it been confirmed that those parts were still attached to the craft at time of impact?

Components from the tail, in particular the tail rotor blades, will show a distinctly different deformation in the case where they made contact with a hard surface while under torque (i.e. being actively driven) than in a scenario where there was an impact under no torque.

I have no idea if the tail blades have been recovered or not, but if so then they would quickly be able to tell investigators whether the were under torque or not at the time of impact.

irishgeo · 21-03-2017 11:07AM

skallywag wrote: »

At the risk of stating the obvious it is not possible to definitively know why this happened until the investigation has been completed. At the bare minimum the flight recorders will first of all need to be analyzed.

the air investigation unit has confirmed the tail section has the appearance of hitting rocks.

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Do we though?

We know that parts of the craft may have come into contact with the rocks but has it been confirmed that those parts were still attached to the craft at time of impact?

Thats a possibility also.

skallywag · 21-03-2017 11:11AM

irishgeo wrote: »

the air investigation unit has confirmed the tail section has the appearance of hitting rocks.

Correct. But what does that tell us about the reason for this happening?

Take a simple analogy of a car crashing into a wall. It will quickly become apparent that the car crashed into a wall, but this fact alone tells us nothing as to why the accident happened ...

homerjay2005 · 21-03-2017 11:14AM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Do we though?

yes we do. its confirmed as a collision -

http://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0321/861280-mayo-helicopter-crash/

The Air Accident Investigation Unit has said it believes Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue 116 crashed into Blackrock, off the Mayo coast, in the early hours of last Tuesday morning.

In a statement, the AAIU said some wreckage recovered in recent days had marks consistent with the tail of the aircraft hitting rocky surfaces on the western end of the island.

Since the investigation began a week ago, Blackrock island, ten miles off the Mayo coast, has been at the centre of the search operation.

It was there that the last position of the helicopter was recorded and the location where part of its tail section was found, and it is close to where search crews hope to locate the wreckage.

irishgeo · 21-03-2017 11:18AM

skallywag wrote: »

Correct. But what does that tell us about the reason for this happening?

Take a simple analogy of a car crashing into a wall. It will quickly become apparent that the car crashed into a wall, but this fact alone tells us nothing as to why the accident happened ...

your correct. Why did AAIU tell us so, if its not important.

skallywag · 21-03-2017 11:18AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

yes we do. its confirmed as a collision -

http://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0321/861280-mayo-helicopter-crash/

Is it in no way currently clear whether a collision with the island was the cause of the accident or whether this was the effect of a prior failure.

Deep Thought · 21-03-2017 11:20AM

This piece was omitted from the Quote

"The unit says that the initial point of impact has not yet been definitively identified and the circumstances of the accident are still not clear."

It helps to scroll beyond the header

skallywag · 21-03-2017 11:20AM

irishgeo wrote: »

Why did AAIU tell us so, if its not important.

They did so because they are now confident that this fact is true. Of course this fact is extremely important. But it is also the case that we still do not know why this happened.

Gadgetman496 · 21-03-2017 11:35AM

When it was reported that some wreckage was found on Blackrock island, was it confirmed anywhere that the said wreckage was on top of the rock?

Could it have fallen onto the rock?

Means Of Escape · 21-03-2017 11:39AM

Treadhead wrote: »

Accurate how? Reports of wreckage on the rock came out on day one. All we know is that the aircraft came into contact with the rock.

The wild speculation about why that happened is no more "accurate" today than it was yesterday.

Untrue. No reporting of wreckage coming out from day one

Some posters here refused to believe in pilot error and gagged and ridiculed others as armchair investigators who did believe that it was not mechanical failure

We will await the report that will probably include the words spatial disorientation .

Cianmcliam · 21-03-2017 11:49AM

skallywag wrote: »

They did so because they are now confident that this fact is true. Of course this fact is extremely important. But it is also the case that we still do not know why this happened.

I wonder did Enda Kenny saying to the papers yesterday that the families 'deserve answers' contribute to the release of the statement before the main wreckage has even been visited?

skallywag · 21-03-2017 11:59AM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

I wonder did Enda Kenny saying to the papers yesterday that the families 'deserve answers' contribute to the release of the statement before the main wreckage has even been visited?

The hunger for answers here is clearly understandable, and I think that the release and wording of the official statement was well done. Once it became apparent to the investigation team that the helicopter had struck the island then this information may as well have been put into the public domain.

Means Of Escape · 21-03-2017 12:00PM

Tenger wrote: »

Just to clarify a couple of points;
As pointed out above, there is a lot of emotion evident in this thread. Moreso that in any incident that has taken place outside our personal experience. Hence the mods understand that people have close interest. The reported posts have indicated a level of unhappiness with the run of this thread. But please keep in mind that the mods are not here 24/7. Thus we cannot immediately edit/delete/warn/response to reports.

Then when Irish Steve did delete quite a large number of posts which were getting personal there was an accusation of over modding. Tricky D locked the thread for a similar reasons, as there was bickering in the absence of any new info. Hopefully we get some new information on the status of 116 and the still missing crew members today. Then we can continue to discuss the tragic incident calmly and sensitively, while understanding that we are not accident investigators.

The post by Irish Steve that has been challenged was an in the interest of steering the thread away from 'wild speculation' As with any aviation incident no possibility can be fully discounted. However this incident cannot be speculated along the same way as some posters initially did with "it was a bit dark. maybe they thought they were at Blacksod not Blackrock?" The statistically largest contributing factor in aviation incidents can never be discounted, and Im fully convinced the AAIU are looking at everything.

In addition some posters have channels of information that allow them info that may not yet be publicly available. There has also been quite a lot of posts with "I heard this from a mate...." type info. This throws rumours into a very sensitive situation.
Someone else asks the question about what impact our thread could have on the families of Rescue 116, the fact is that a quick search online can throw up many results and its easy for someone to click here and start reading. We quite recently saw schoolchildren posting on journal after a tradgey affected them and being discussed by ghouls on the Journal,ie. before the comments were closed.

Hopefully that clarifies things a little and most importantly hopefully the AAIU gives some more info later today

Care to list the posters that "have channels of information "?

Reati · 21-03-2017 12:16PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so far, the "speculation" of alot of posters here, has proven to actually be factual.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

And some "speculation" from "armchair" investigators has been very accurate from early on despite having zero inside knowledge.

A broken clock is right twice a day. Doesn't prove anything and doesn't mean it's of any use to anyone.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Some posters here refused to believe in pilot error and gagged and ridiculed others as armchair investigators who did believe that it was not mechanical failure

There is no proof either way. It's still speculation to say it was pilot error vs mechanical fault. All that they have said is some wreckage has consistency with making contact with rocks.

I'm one of the posters who didn't (and atm still don't) believe it was CFIT but admitted in posts that they likely hit / clipped the island for one reason or another.

My views will change as more evidence comes out. That's the thing that seems to be lacking here. People are more worried about how they were right with speculation than wanting to understand what went wrong and learning from it.

If it was CFIT due it disorientation I won't be making excuses for what I believed at the time. I'll be happy they found the cause and can work to make the system safer for other SAR teams and pilots in general.

Ireland has lost a very experienced and dedicated SAR crew. Who have saved countless lives. There is no win to be had in being "right" on this. All that matters is they figure it out and hopefully prevent it happening again.

Deep Thought wrote: »

This piece was omitted from the Quote

"The unit says that the initial point of impact has not yet been definitively identified and the circumstances of the accident are still not clear."

It helps to scroll beyond the header

Exactly. The AAIU piece is as vague as it is detailed but the AAIU have not said "they crashed into Blackrock".

irishgeo wrote: »

your correct. Why did AAIU tell us so, if its not important.

Because the aviation industry is built on learning and transparency. They didn't tell "us" anything. They are detailing out some early observations about some of the wreckage found.

Danbo! · 21-03-2017 12:23PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Care to list the posters that "have channels of information "?

As with most forums, there are posters who work in the industry and people who are just generally interested in the topic. I presume "channels of info" could mean anyone in the Gardai, the AAIU, coast guard, etc or any friends or family members who may have heard info not in the public domain. I doubt the mods have a definitive list and even if they did, what would be the point of sharing it? To have those users' inbox fill up with requests from journalists or people asking for info?

Irish Steve · 21-03-2017 12:57PM

The AAIU have now stated that there was debis found on Blackrock Island. While not officially in the public domain, that information was circulating in some areas last Wednesday, and was a factor in some of the way that this thread was managed at that time.

I have stated before in this thread, and will say it again now, to suggest that this was CFIT disrespects the memory and professionalism of a crew that were operating at the peak of skill levels and experience, in that they would have known exactly where they were, and of the presence of Blackrock. Yes, CFIT is an outside possibility, but there are other possibilities that for me, rank as being higher on the probability scale, but now is not the time to discuss them

A comment was made that even Formula 1 drivers crash, which is true, but when was the last time anyone can remember a driver crashing on the in lap having just completed their qualifying lap. At the time of the loss, they were flying a standard approach profile that they would have used on previous occasions, and while I don't have the exact profile, I would anticipate that they would have been passing over Blackrock at about 3000 Ft and starting an automatic let down on the return leg that would have taken them towards Blacksod, which would have been over water with no obstructions.

What is clear is that something happened that resulted in the loss, and for reasons that are at present very much unexplained, contact was made with Blackrock Island. We can only hope that the AAIU will be able to get the information they need from the aircraft recorders

irishgeo · 21-03-2017 01:02PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The AAIU have now stated that there was debis found on Blackrock Island. While not officially in the public domain, that information was circulating in some areas last Wednesday, and was a factor in some of the way that this thread was managed at that time.

I have stated before in this thread, and will say it again now, to suggest that this was CFIT disrespects the memory and professionalism of a crew that were operating at the peak of skill levels and experience, in that they would have known exactly where they were, and of the presence of Blackrock. Yes, CFIT is an outside possibility, but there are other possibilities that for me, rank as being higher on the probability scale, but now is not the time to discuss them

A comment was made that even Formula 1 drivers crash, which is true, but when was the last time anyone can remember a driver crashing on the in lap having just completed their qualifying lap. At the time of the loss, they were flying a standard approach profile that they would have used on previous occasions, and while I don't have the exact profile, I would anticipate that they would have been passing over Blackrock at about 3000 Ft and starting an automatic let down on the return leg that would have taken them towards Blacksod, which would have been over water with no obstructions.

What is clear is that something happened that resulted in the loss, and for reasons that are at present very much unexplained, contact was made with Blackrock Island. We can only hope that the AAIU will be able to get the information they need from the aircraft recorders

Yep i agree with the above.

jmayo · 21-03-2017 01:17PM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

I wonder did Enda Kenny saying to the papers yesterday that the families 'deserve answers' contribute to the release of the statement before the main wreckage has even been visited?

Don't try and drag him into this.

There are over 200 S92 flying around the world and their pilots and operators are watching the events unfold with huge interest.
They all want to know if there are big mechanical issues with the type whilst on the other hand the manufacturers want to rule out mechanical issues.

There is always pressure on accident investigators to try and find some answers quickly.

Also it was an open secret what was discovered on the island so they probably had to release some information to try dispel some of the theories.

Irish Steve wrote: »

A comment was made that even Formula 1 drivers crash, which is true, but when was the last time anyone can remember a driver crashing on the in lap having just completed their qualifying lap. At the time of the loss, they were flying a standard approach profile that they would have used on previous occasions, and while I don't have the exact profile, I would anticipate that they would have been passing over Blackrock at about 3000 Ft and starting an automatic let down on the return leg that would have taken them towards Blacksod, which would have been over water with no obstructions.

I don't think one can equate an in lap in F1 with flying an approach in the dark with inclement weather and low visibility to a non controlled landing site.

BTW a fair few non Irish pilots are wondering why it appears to be SOP to go out 10 odd miles into the vicinity of a 300 ft rock to approach Blacksod ?

Irish Steve wrote: »

What is clear is that something happened that resulted in the loss, and for reasons that are at present very much unexplained, contact was made with Blackrock Island. We can only hope that the AAIU will be able to get the information they need from the aircraft recorders

Amen to that.

Means Of Escape · 21-03-2017 01:21PM

Danbo! wrote: »

As with most forums, there are posters who work in the industry and people who are just generally interested in the topic. I presume "channels of info" could mean anyone in the Gardai, the AAIU, coast guard, etc or any friends or family members who may have heard info not in the public domain. I doubt the mods have a definitive list and even if they did, what would be the point of sharing it? To have those users' inbox fill up with requests from journalists or people asking for info?

Then there are a larger group of posters who don't have this "channel of information " who can propose intelligent "speculation" as "armchair investigators" and who have debated this issue effectively and without emotion than others who have gagged and attempted to suffocate debate by closing threads and dismissing many posters on this thread that gave alternative views .

ProfessorPlum · 21-03-2017 01:28PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The AAIU have now stated that there was debis found on Blackrock Island. While not officially in the public domain, that information was circulating in some areas last Wednesday, and was a factor in some of the way that this thread was managed at that time.

I have stated before in this thread, and will say it again now, to suggest that this was CFIT disrespects the memory and professionalism of a crew that were operating at the peak of skill levels and experience, in that they would have known exactly where they were, and of the presence of Blackrock. Yes, CFIT is an outside possibility, but there are other possibilities that for me, rank as being higher on the probability scale, but now is not the time to discuss them

I haven posted here for a while, but I have to reply to the above.

This is utter nonsense. Your implication is that if this was CFIT, the professionalism of this crew is called into question. And by extension that every accident where CFIT is the cause, calls the professionalism of crew into question. Regardless of the cause of this accident nothing changes the fact that this crew was professional and competent. We all make mistakes. Even highly trained and experienced crews. Daily. Pretending we don't achieves nothing except exposing us to danger.

Reati · 21-03-2017 01:44PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

I haven posted here for a while, but I have to reply to the above.

This is utter nonsense. Your implication is that if this was CFIT, the professionalism of this crew is called into question. And by extension that every accident where CFIT is the cause, calls the professionalism of crew into question. Regardless of the cause of this accident nothing changes the fact that this crew was professional and competent. We all make mistakes. Even highly trained and experienced crews. Daily. Pretending we don't achieves nothing except exposing us to danger.

Indeed if it's CFIT found as the cause, even then when questions raised about why they were down at or below the height of Blackrock doesn't make the R116 crew any less professional and competent. We simply need to close the loop and ensure whatever happened (whatever the reason) can't happen again.

That's what I love about aviation. The transparency of why it went wrong. The willingness to say "the crew made a mistake" or "the heli failed". Nothing should be hidden away. That's what makes us better and safer.

skallywag · 21-03-2017 01:44PM

Strongly agree with Plum's post above.

greenspurs · 21-03-2017 01:46PM

In my opinion, The "i told you so" posts are a result of the sniping and deleting of peoples posts. I feel people were fairly well pi$$ed off over their, mainly, genuine concerned questions/theories about what happened in this tragedy being dispelled and labelled 'disrepectful' . Im sure its tough to keep threads in order.

Anyway, hopefully the Services involved can get what they need soon, and the authorities can start to piece together what did happen.
What is the weather like there today ?

billie1b · 21-03-2017 01:49PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

I haven posted here for a while, but I have to reply to the above.

This is utter nonsense. Your implication is that if this was CFIT, the professionalism of this crew is called into question. And by extension that every accident where CFIT is the cause, calls the professionalism of crew into question. Regardless of the cause of this accident nothing changes the fact that this crew was professional and competent. We all make mistakes. Even highly trained and experienced crews. Daily. Pretending we don't achieves nothing except exposing us to danger.

You see Prof, you're not understanding here, it's cause they were Irish and we're not allowed to say anything 'bad' about them for that reason and because boards.ie and it's moderators think the family of the missing and deceased are gonna be sitting home all day reading this very site instead if grieving with family and friends. Anyone who thinks that they aren't doing that or who asks not on the agenda questions the mods are taking it personally and you're being classed as an 'armchair detective' or a 'drunk' who is trying to stir things up and get personal or troll.
I myself already admitted what I first thought when I heard of the crash, and thats from someone who visits the SAR hangar quite often and met most of the crews, doesn't mean i'm saying the crew weren't professional or skilled, just means i'm human and thats the way the majority of us think, humans make mistakes, all the time, regardless of our professionalism, it happens. Again RIP to these brave people

Gremlinertia · 21-03-2017 01:50PM

Speculation is just that - facts will not arise until relevant authorities have investigated, right now it's a terrible time of recovery, i am heartbroken over this, just remember that family and friends can see this thread too.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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