"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

volchitsa · 19-03-2017 08:53AM

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

Graces, were you in the country at that time? Did you see this in Ireland for yourself? Or is this all anecdotal? Because it's nothing like how it was around here in the 40s, 50s, 60s or 70s.

It's actually shockingly offensive to ordinary people, the idea that they wouldn't help an old sick neighbour - I remember in 1976 when standpipes had to be brought in for drinking-water, we kids were all expected to keep the elderly neighbours stocked up with water, just as a matter of course.

I loved doing it, but that isn't the point, it's that nobody needed nuns to come round and see that this was being done. I'd say it never crossed any nun's mind to see if any old people were having to carry water to their houses. The neighbours otoh - round our way anyway - did it for them.

Solidarity among neighbours was huge, but it was completely unconnected to the church's and it's bizarre to pretend that it required the church's involvement.
I remember when few people had phones, you could call a neighbour who did have one and they'd get the person or give them the message. What had that to do with the church?

As for the idea of some sort of nursing order of nuns coming round and helping out like Mother Theresa, well, not where I grew up anyway! Other people helped out.

But not nuns, they were "important people coming to visit", you had to be on your best, and quietest, behaviour, while they were being entertained in the front room. Usually you were put out in the street to play for the duration, so as not to disturb the holy ladies.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 12:15PM

My grandparents ran a small business in Dublin in the 1950s (groceries and butchers) and various orders of religious basically operated like a mafia. They nearly put them out of business by not paying bills.

Basically, some member of their order would turn up and make a huge fuss and put in a big order for some big deal occasion. They were put under huge complements to supply the goods as otherwise you'd be basically on the bad side of the church.

Then when the bill would be sent on it would go unpaid for weeks or months and then they would sometime try and make out that it was a charitable donation.

The other one that absolutely sickened my great grandfather, who wasn't a particularly religious man but was involved a lot in singing, so turned up at choirs quite a lot in the 1950s. He always did his humble fish on a Friday thing in those days and one day was invited to dine with the priests at a Friday dinner thing.
They were having lobster Thermidor in 1950s, poverty stricken, inner city Dublin.
He never felt the same way about the church since and dropped most of his involvement.

Also my great grandmother knew full well what went on in the laundries and used to bail women out who were sent "up from the country" by finding them flats, jobs and looking after their babies or helping them get set up in England too.
She had stories of having to hide grown women, pretend various babies were her's while they came up with contingency plans and in one case even intervened where a local neighbour who's wife had left him was looking after his kids extremely well and had the "cruelty man" and the nuns constantly trying to come up with reasons to put them into care. Several families from the same street basically bailed him out and fended off the authorities.

She also hired several guys who had been in industrial schools and basically ended up being like a mammy to them trying to get them back to normality, found routes for them to get into the "Tech" and in one case taught a guy how to read. He left school a total mess unable to read or add and has been absolutely brutalised. He moved to England and she kept in touch with him for decades.

But I don't think that was all that unusual or that she was some kind of unusually altruistic figure. I've heard plenty of similar stories from people in the same area. They had to work around what was basically oppression and poverty with a state that worked against them in a lot of ways..

It was like those communities lived under a state of terror of the church / state. These services were not helping them they were coercion and punishment for anyone who stepped out of line.

Generations of Dublin kids lived with the threat of getting "sent to Artane" right into relatively modern times.

Despite all the hand wringing all the social services that should have been in place to reduce the impacts of poverty in urban and rural Ireland were basically blocked because it would have removed the power of religious "charities" who ran the services, including education on behalf of the state.

Effectively, we not only continued but reinvigorated the Victorian British poor laws and added a huge dose of proselytizing/evangelising Catholicism to it. A society was beaten (quite literally) into compliance.

It was one very downtrodden and screwed up society.

I spoke a lot to people who would have had familiarity with that era from having experienced it in Dublin - relatives now in their 80s and 90s and what's striking is they were extremely powerless, despite Ireland being a democracy, there was an established political consensus for decades and very little seemed to shift that really into relatively recent years.

Goldengirl · 19-03-2017 12:18PM

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BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 12:44PM

You'd a culture of top down, absolute power and don't rock the boat in all of those organisations.

They did not like whistle blowers and had serious control of their members - step out of line and you were going to lose your career, your home, your income and potentially be ostracised from society too. You also would have been basically brought up and educated to have extreme respect for the organisation and its authority figures in a way that meant they usually were beyond question.

That's how almost all of humanities most abusive situations occur.

Often it's in a militaristic command structure or a political command structure but, the church organisations or that time in Ireland have all of the characteristics that tend to facilitate extreme abuse

All the checks and balances were missing!

Whether religious or secular, organisations like that are usually highly dangerous to anyone who is on the wrong side of them. You cannot allow that kind of structure to be anywhere near running state services.

There's a massive lesson about transparency here and I worry that we are not learning it.

tara73 · 19-03-2017 12:58PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

My grandparents ran a small business in Dublin in the 1950s (groceries and butchers) and various orders of religious basically operated like a mafia. They nearly put them out of business by not paying bills.

...

thanks so much for this post sharing your knowledge. It is so shocking to read this, one would think this things happened in the medieval ages but not in the 20th century anymore. we need people like you who share their knowledge to make people aware what a brutal, criminalistic, mafia and sect like organisation the RCC is and was.
It makes my blood boil they still operate in many countries, not only in Ireland.

Everybody should just leave this organisation, don't pay them a penny anymore, no donations or anything, no one going to mass. It would dry them out pretty quickly. Unfortunately they have a lot of property, but how to maintain it with no money?
I wish the sc** in the Vatican would be chased out and send straight to hell and the buildings and all opened for the public serving as a heritge site. Not joking here, meaning it.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 01:16PM

As the old saying goes; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You'll get nice individuals and islands of friendly enlightenment in organisations that are a total disaster from a corruption or transparency point of view.

You see exactly the same repeated in military and police corruption around the world and even in dictatorship regimes. People in the system are often blind to the systemic problems or just focus on their own little patch of control as a survival technique. There would have been plenty of nice religious but they didn't stand to and challenge the status quo because the organisation is a rigid command hierarchy that didn't and still doesn't respond very well to criticism from within or from outside.

I think we need to be careful not to just assume this is something that was unique to this one religion. It's just a particularly extreme example.

It's something that Ireland needs to ensure doesn't happen again in any organisation.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 01:24PM

This is what you were up against in 1950s Ireland:

Response to the Mother and Child Scheme:

John A Costello, Taoiseach speaking in 1951 wrote:

"I have no hesitation in saying that we, as a Government, representing a people, the overwhelming majority of whom are of the one faith, who have a special position in the Constitution, when we are given advice or warnings by the authoritative people in the Catholic Church, on matters strictly confined to faith and morals, so long as I am here—and I am sure I speak for my colleagues—will give to their directions, given within that scope—and I have no doubt that they do not desire in the slightest to go one fraction of an inch outside the sphere of faith and morals—our complete obedience and allegiance." ... "I am an Irishman second, I am a Catholic first, and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong."

Couldn't be more clear as to where the country was at the time - the state was completely handed over to the church.

Really a shocking statement to have been made by the leader of a country that would claim to be a Republic and go on endlessly about independence.

I still think we have a long way to go before we even live up to the ideals of the proclamation.

tara73 · 19-03-2017 01:28PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

As the old saying goes; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You'll get nice individuals and islands of friendly enlightenment in organisations that are a total disaster from a corruption or transparency point of view.

You see exactly the same repeated in military and police corruption around the world and even in dictatorship regimes. People in the system are often blind to the systemic problems or just focus on their own little patch of control as a survival technique. There would have been plenty of nice religious but they didn't stand to and challenge the status quo because the organisation is a rigid command hierarchy that didn't and still doesn't respond very well to criticism from within or from outside.

I think we need to be careful not to just assume this is something that was unique to this one religion. It's just a particularly extreme example.

It's something that Ireland needs to ensure doesn't happen again in any organisation.

yes, when I was typing my post I was thinking at the same time: when being rid of one corrupt organisation, sooner or later another one will try to gain control again, be it directly from a government as a dictatorship or a 'religion' acting like the good ones but just manipulating and oppressing the people with the help of the government.
I think the point is here, people need to see this and stand up to it in the early stages. But also shockingly, many people, sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's the reality, are too stupid to see through things or are to cowardish to do it. We have the 'best' example at this minute in Turkey. What happens there is so frightening and shocking, but no one seems to be able to stop it. A nightmare evolving in front of the world. History repeating itself. In years to come everybody will ask why nobody did anything against it..

Bredabe · 19-03-2017 01:41PM

tara73 wrote: »

yes, when I was typing my post I was thinking at the same time: when being rid of one corrupt organisation, sooner or later another one will try to gain control again, be it directly from a government as a dictatorship or a 'religion' acting like the good ones but just manipulating and oppressing the people with the help of the government.
I think the point is here, people need to see this and stand up to it in the early stages. But also shockingly, many people, sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's the reality, are too stupid to see through things or are to cowardish to do it. We have the 'best' example at this minute in Turkey. What happens there is so frightening and shocking, but no one seems to be able to stop it. A nightmare evolving in front of the world. History repeating itself. In years to come everybody will ask why nobody did anything against it..

I completely agree with you, I think this lack of awareness outside of themselves and the conscious or unconsciousness of young ppl not listening or valuing the experiences or values of their elders will help this process along, from what I see denial is strong in the irish psyche, I well understand why whistle blowers keep abuses to themselves, citizens just dont want to know but are keen to shoot the messenger. Cant see how it will end happily.

Goldengirl · 19-03-2017 01:43PM

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tara73 · 19-03-2017 01:52PM

Bredabe wrote: »

I completely agree with you, I think this lack of awareness outside of themselves and the conscious or unconsciousness of young ppl not listening or valuing the experiences or values of their elders will help this process along, from what I see denial is strong in the irish psyche, I well understand why whistle blowers keep abuses to themselves, citizens just dont want to know but are keen to shoot the messenger. Cant see how it will end happily.

I think it's not only the irish psyche, for me, it seems, shockingly, the majority of people all around the world are so easy to manipulate, are so obedient to authorities because they are raised from a babies age to be like that and are not able to think outside their box/ are afraid of the consequences if they not obey to this so called 'authorities'.

19-03-2017 02:06PM

tara73 wrote: »

I think it's not only the irish psyche, for me, it seems, shockingly, the majority of people all around the world are so easy to manipulate, are so obedient to authorities because they are raised from a babies age to be like that and are not able to think outside their box/ are afraid of the consequences if they not obey to this so called 'authorities'.

This x 1000.

People, in general, have been manipulated for Centuries. From Monarchs, to "Upper Class", various Religions, Government propaganda, media pushing a particular perspective... the list goes on.

Meanwhile, most people are busy trying to keep the bills paid, and looking after their families - and accept at face value a great deal that a little digging would reveal to be patently false.

Think war propaganda, political propaganda, religious extremism, etc.

None of it has gone away. It's just become more sophisticated, and harder to identify...

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 02:23PM

tara73 wrote: »

I think it's not only the irish psyche, for me, it seems, shockingly, the majority of people all around the world are so easy to manipulate, are so obedient to authorities because they are raised from a babies age to be like that and are not able to think outside their box/ are afraid of the consequences if they not obey to this so called 'authorities'.

That was amplified in Ireland precisely because the church organisation ran the school system and in fact, most 3rd level educational establishments other than UCC and NUI Galway.

I know these days things have become a lot more secular, even in religious schools but it you go back to anytime pre 1980s you had extreme indoctrination going on reinforced with brutality too.

It wasn't exactly gentle coaxing. Most of my older relatives have stories like being made kneel in front of statues saying the rosery and beaten really badly on a pretty regular basis.

One relative of mine who is in her 80s now *still* regularly brings up the beatings she got at school - so I can only assume it left her with lifelong trauma.

I know my grandmother got a catechism question wrong in front or the bishop on a visit and the teacher slapped her across the ear so hard her ear drum must have burst as she said her ear bled and she still had tinnitus from it in her 90s!!

She put up with being hit with rulers, being thrown off the nun's "platform" (like a raised up area she taught from), hit with hands, fists, slapped across the face, hit dusters, having things thrown at her, being made scrub floors on her hands and knees.

It seems that kind of thing was fairly common place in Irish schools and when you couple it with extremely strong religious stuff at the time, you can see how people ended up a bit brainwashed and didn't challenge it.

It's very similar to the way abused spouses don't challenge the abuser or how children of violent parents don't report them. You become a bit stuck in a sort of a Stockholm syndrome.

JupiterKid · 19-03-2017 02:31PM

It's actually quite simple. The Church had absolute power in Ireland after the famine and it was copper fastened in the immediate decades after independence. They utterly abused that position of power and the Irish people were treated with pure contempt. Unless you were well to do and/or well connected. These people always got a much gentler treatment by the church. But woe betide if you were poor, as 80% of Irish people were until the 1960s.

Yes, there were good nuns and priests but I don't think for a second they were in the majority. Most treated the poor with contempt. It was a disgusting state of affairs and we as a society won't really heal until the church is effectively purged from society. Starting with education.

Given the absolute power they had is it any wonder that the most heinous abuses - especially against the poor, the women and children, were widespread?

tara73 · 19-03-2017 02:42PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's actually quite simple. The Church had absolute power in Ireland after the famine and it was copper fastened in the immediate decades after independence.

anybody knows how come they could put themselves in this power? somebody mentioned here earlier that it was a concious decision from the Vatican. But I wonder how they were able to do it because the British were still in power after the famine and they were mostly protestant??
Genuine question, I always wondered why or how the Catholic Church became so powerful in Ireland.

volchitsa · 19-03-2017 02:54PM

tara73 wrote: »

anybody knows how come they could put themselves in this power? somebody mentioned here earlier that it was a concious decision from the Vatican. But I wonder how they were able to do it because the British were still in power after the famine and they were mostly protestant??
Genuine question, I always wondered why or how the Catholic Church became so powerful in Ireland.

If you read the history of Maynooth, it's fascinating, it was set up and run as a proxy for British influence. The church authorities were dedicated to ensuring that the Irish people didn't rebel, certainly not in than me of religion anyway, since that would have threatened their own rather comfortable situation, risking a return to something like penal times.

(What's really interesting IMO is the way the church has managed to portray themselves as victims of the British, as the ordinary people were, when in fact they hadn't been victimized in any significant way once Maynooth was in place.)

19-03-2017 02:55PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's actually quite simple. The Church had absolute power in Ireland after the famine and it was copper fastened in the immediate decades after independence. They utterly abused that position of power and the Irish people were treated with pure contempt. Unless you were well to do and/or well connected. These people always got a much gentler treatment by the church. But woe betide if you were poor, as 80% of Irish people were until the 1960s.

Yes, there were good nuns and priests but I don't think for a second they were in the majority. Most treated the poor with contempt. It was a disgusting state of affairs and we as a society won't really heal until the church is effectively purged from society. Starting with education.

Given the absolute power they had is it any wonder that the most heinous abuses - especially against the poor, the women and children, were widespread?

There, I disagree. I think the majority were good, although, pre-vatican 2, I think it's fair to say that many had forgotten they were meant to be the servants of the people, and were a lot more arrogant than they should have been.

Having said that - I started school in the 60s, and, in all honestly, I can say that many (not all) of the secular teachers were guilty of the same arrogance, and, in some cases, cruelty.

I had no contact (apart from the occasional visit by the priest, or missionary nuns) with priests or nuns in primary school.

The principal in secondary school was a priest, and he was very strict with the boys, in particular. There is no question but that we were very much afraid of him.

Having said that, the two chaplains were absolutely lovely, and I genuinely couldn't find a bad word to say about them.

Likewise, there were two nuns who came in to teach, at times, presumably as substitutes.

One was very strict, though not cruel, in any sense of the word. The other was the nicest, most caring woman you could ever ask to meet.

On the other hand, some of the secular teachers were absolute scum.
From the alcoholic who loved to hit people around the head, to the home ec. teacher who forced my sister to take a tray of buns out of a hot oven with her bare hands because they were burning - to the teacher who spent most of civics class making sure our knees were firmly together, and our skirts were "long enough" - I could tell a lot of stories, but, suffice to say, some of those teachers were unfit to be anywhere near children.

There was a definite abuse of power in this Country during those years - but that abuse wasn't confined to the clergy, by any means.
Teachers, Doctors, Nurses - any who perceived themselves as having any "authority":rolleyes: - all were equally guilty, in my experience.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 04:13PM

The problem I find is we are dealing with a horrible, rotten, agenda-driven organisation and a complicit state that allowed it to take over and basically undermine democracy and transparency and even rule of law.

Yes, there are lots of anecdotes of nice members and lovely nuns and aspects of positivity and well meaning individuals.

However, it does not change the fact that the organisation itself is deeply flawed, ignores its own mission statement and has behaved in an utterly abhorrent and totally unaccountable manner and still refuses to fully recognise that.

The church has some good core teachings but it has done a hell of a lot of horrific stuff over the years that absolutely fly in the face of Catholic or any kind of Christian teaching.

You can't love thy neighbour by forcing her to work in a laundry or shunning her children because you don't agree with how they were fathered.

Or any of the countless other things the church and it's representatives have done over the years.

The core message was lost in a medieval mess or puritanical, moralising, social engineering and power hungry abuse.

I feel sorry for the people who thought they were doing good and who in many cases genuinely were doing good and are left with a situation where they now feel they have to show blind loyalty to this monster of an organisation.

It's let a lot of people down, very badly and is really a massive betrayal of the trust of the trust placed in it and the respect granted to it by Irish Catholics, its own clergy, nuns and brothers and anyone who ever expected it to behave in a sensible way.

I'm not religious at all, but I could imagine if you were a good priest or a nun or a very faithful catholic, you would be absolutely distraught at what's happened and probably left with very mixed and conflicted feelings about the Church.

Most of all however, it absolutely betrayed the vulnerable who were abused in its direct 'care' as did the state, by totally and absolutely failing to protect their human rights or to even vaguely uphold the ideals that this state was allegedly founded upon.

Bredabe · 19-03-2017 05:38PM

tara73 wrote: »

anybody knows how come they could put themselves in this power? somebody mentioned here earlier that it was a concious decision from the Vatican. But I wonder how they were able to do it because the British were still in power after the famine and they were mostly protestant??
Genuine question, I always wondered why or how the Catholic Church became so powerful in Ireland.

My parents were hyper religious, they were also living on the breadline most of the time. Looking back I think the reasons they were so taken in were.

1. Parental influences, brought up to it to the point they dare not question
2. Society having similar influence on the population
3. Boredom and sexual unfulfillment, ppl under stimulated in their work a day lives and fixated on the only celebrities they could, priests/nuns/doctors ect.
4. Poverty and hopelessness, things so bad in the present and so little hope for change in the future, that trips to the church/confessions became the only social outlet they could afford, prayer was the only way to effect change(this was backed up by the church), the only way they had to deal with their circumstances was to "hand it over to god" or pray it would change, I think prayer was like meditation for some ppl.

ohnonotgmail · 19-03-2017 05:43PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

That was amplified in precisely because the church organisation ran the school system and in fact, most 3rd level educational establishments other than UCC and NUI Galway.

...

Not forgetting the bastion of the protestant faith that was TCD.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 06:05PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Not forgetting the bastion of the protestant faith that was TCD.

I'm not exempting Irish protestants either. The Betheny Home scandal didn't exactly paint them in a great light.

19-03-2017 06:17PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I'm not exempting Irish protestants either. The Betheny Home scandal didn't exactly paint them in a great light.

Awaits post blaming the nuns for that, too...

Don't get me wrong, some Nuns, and Priests, have an awful lot to answer for.

But any mention that they were not the sole source of abuse in Ireland tends to get a reply from some posters that totally ignores that inconvenient fact...

tara73 · 19-03-2017 07:09PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

The problem I find is we are dealing with a horrible, rotten, agenda-driven organisation and a complicit state that allowed it to take over and basically undermine democracy and transparency and even rule of law.

Yes, there are lots of anecdotes of nice members and lovely nuns and aspects of positivity and well meaning individuals.

However, it does not change the fact that the organisation itself is deeply flawed, ignores its own mission statement and has behaved in an utterly abhorrent and totally unaccountable manner and still refuses to fully recognise that.

The church has some good core teachings but it has done a hell of a lot of horrific stuff over the years that absolutely fly in the face of Catholic or any kind of Christian teaching.

You can't love thy neighbour by forcing her to work in a laundry or shunning her children because you don't agree with how they were fathered.

Or any of the countless other things the church and it's representatives have done over the years.

The core message was lost in a medieval mess or puritanical, moralising, social engineering and power hungry abuse.

I feel sorry for the people who thought they were doing good and who in many cases genuinely were doing good and are left with a situation where they now feel they have to show blind loyalty to this monster of an organisation.

It's let a lot of people down, very badly and is really a massive betrayal of the trust of the trust placed in it and the respect granted to it by Irish Catholics, its own clergy, nuns and brothers and anyone who ever expected it to behave in a sensible way.

I'm not religious at all, but I could imagine if you were a good priest or a nun or a very faithful catholic, you would be absolutely distraught at what's happened and probably left with very mixed and conflicted feelings about the Church.

Most of all however, it absolutely betrayed the vulnerable who were abused in its direct 'care' as did the state, by totally and absolutely failing to protect their human rights or to even vaguely uphold the ideals that this state was allegedly founded upon.

can't thank this post enough, so well said. Not only did this organisation, the RCC, abuse, humiliate and yes, murdered so many innocent poeple and children, they also damaged the trust of many good folks who believed in and lived the values this church preached.
Again, I hope people wake up and turn their back on this organisation for good.

BlinkingLights · 19-03-2017 07:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Awaits post blaming the nuns for that, too...

Don't get me wrong, some Nuns, and Priests, have an awful lot to answer for.

But any mention that they were not the sole source of abuse in Ireland tends to get a reply from some posters that totally ignores that inconvenient fact...

Well the churches all participated in various 20th century crucdades against what they perceived as immorality here.

For example two Church of Ireland clergy sat along side Catholic clergy on the "Committee on Evil Literature" (no. I'm not making that up. We really had one!).
This was the Free State's first serious dive into censorship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Evil_Literature

I'd see if more as a broader puritanical movement that happened here in the 20th century.

The Catholic side was definitely much more extreme and far more dominant just in sheer scale but, certain Irish protestants weren't all that much less conservative by the looks of things.

The main stream of the modern Church of Ireland is definitely pretty progressive but that hasn't always been the case and it's also not the only aspect of Protestant community thinking here - there are far more conservative groups.

I mean just look north and you've an aspect of NI Protestant culture being the major stumbling block against both Same Sex Marriage and abortion.

I think the C of I modernised more dramatically and more rapidly then the Catholic Church but it's looking at it through rainbow tinted glasses to think it's always been very liberal or that it doesn't still have conservative aspects and the C of I is not the whole story of protestantism in Ireland by any means.

Mr.Wemmick · 20-03-2017 08:05AM

The suggestion that all Nuns are bad or all members of the RCC are evil is nonsensical. I don't think anyone believes that generalization, just as you simply can not say all parents/families who sent their daughters into homes were all bad/evil. On an individual level it is all rather unmeasurable and terribly vague (one reason a thorough investigation is needed). The point here is that the organization of the Church in Ireland was an evil set up as it was purely power based: unelected, undemocratic with no rules/regulations in place other than the layered policies of self protection. The state handed over control to the holy, pure Church without a bat of an eye, no accountability, no regulations.. and so the anecdotal evidence from ordinary folk in every corner of the land (BlinkingLights post is an excellent example) from that point onwards was overwhelming, staggering re: the cruelty, the fear, the absolute power sucked up and welded by them over the country.

Priests and Nuns have no individual voice, albeit a very quiet whispering one, in the organization and I for one am not at all surprised. If they were critical of their employer do they have protection, union, rights as to their employment status? Imagine after 20 odd years of being clothed, fed, paid, you began to be critical and share your concerns/opinions, you would end up out on the street, with nothing. Bryan Darcy tried to take them on, didn't he? But then he had a clear individual power base being a journalist and a paid celeb, and if he got bullied by them and had the trouble he had, what chance does the ordinary Joe Soap of the priesthood/nunhood have? To me it no longer represents the good, but is a faceless tightly controlled corporation that gets away with crimes again and again.. and no one has even begun to uncover or understand the abuse of young nuns and priests once they joined the organization over the last 90 years.

Always that never ending silence.

Graces7 · 20-03-2017 08:48AM

tara73 wrote: »

I think it's not only the irish psyche, for me, it seems, shockingly, the majority of people all around the world are so easy to manipulate, are so obedient to authorities because they are raised from a babies age to be like that and are not able to think outside their box/ are afraid of the consequences if they not obey to this so called 'authorities'.

I think we all deep down have a basic need and a right to have rulers over us.

If everyone did "their own thing"? While many would be fine? Look at the way society is now. No rulers.

And we have a right and a need to be able to trust those in authority. Which is where it goes badly wrong.

I learned in a very hard and dangerous "school".fighting a particularly corrupt set up decades ago that it is not safe to trust authority. Had I not stood up to that ? I would be dead or at the least incarcerated.

It was a bitterly hard and dangerous thing to do, believe me. Shudders... to realsie that " I have nowhere to run to and no one cares for my soul."

And those around me said they were scared to support me lest they got treated as I was being treated.

I hear this so often too.

Now I am often branded a troublemaker. By those in authority when I help someone who is being bullied. And these days I honestly do not care. But then I am secure in that I have no one dependent on me, no position to uphold. no job to protect.

Never did I break any law though.

Ireland is "worse" than other nations in this. and worse at coping with it when t goes wrong.

ENgland is not far behind.

Graces7 · 20-03-2017 08:58AM

tara73 wrote: »

anybody knows how come they could put themselves in this power? somebody mentioned here earlier that it was a concious decision from the Vatican. But I wonder how they were able to do it because the British were still in power after the famine and they were mostly protestant??
Genuine question, I always wondered why or how the Catholic Church became so powerful in Ireland.

That was me; working on a history.

Even before the famine Ireland was almost totally Catholic. Saint Patrick led that movement and in his hands it was blessed and good and pure and strong. Celtic and irish. Society was basically tribal not hierarchical.

Look at the monks o Skellig Michael, and another identical community ar Reask. They stayed dirt poor, working with the locals to support them .

From around the 12 century Rome moved in. Look under any county for "monastic sites"on wikipaedia. Vast numbers and they standardised everything. No more Skellig monks. Controlled.

The British did not rule religion ever in the same sense Rome did . As now alongside but subsidiary, religion ofr the rich and rulers not the poor ,

Rome ruled by ruling the poor.

And yes, after the Famine, they sent Paul Cardinal Cullen in and literally colonised Ireland. And they could have stopped the Famine in its tracks. They refused o allow ships carrying food in.

Ireland was to breed nuns and priests and send them out to every country to take over for Rome. Literally.

Sad that they concentrated on quantity not quality.

And as many say, some pure and holy ones caught up in it all and doing so much good.

There is a book, online now, called "Father Ralph" written in the 20s but could have been written today

Zebra3 · 20-03-2017 12:58PM

We've known of the crimes of the Roman church for a long time now yet still ordinary Irish people have colluded with them.

Continued funding them through wedding and christening "donations", the christenings giving them new members, cowards refusing to speak up and get the people we elect to get the vermin out of our every day lives.

A lot of people need to take a good look at themselves.

Boggy Turf · 23-03-2017 04:12PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

We've known of the crimes of the Roman church for a long time now yet still ordinary Irish people have colluded with them.

Continued funding them through wedding and christening "donations", the christenings giving them new members, cowards refusing to speak up and get the people we elect to get the vermin out of our every day lives.

A lot of people need to take a good look at themselves.

+1000

How people validate their membership of that 'criminal' organisation is completely beyond me.

23-03-2017 04:54PM

How people are so determined not to try to find out all the facts is beyond me - but, there you go.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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