"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Graces7

Zebra3 wrote: »

We've known of the crimes of the Roman church for a long time now yet still ordinary Irish people have colluded with them.

Continued funding them through wedding and christening "donations", the christenings giving them new members, cowards refusing to speak up and get the people we elect to get the vermin out of our every day lives.

A lot of people need to take a good look at themselves.

Ahem. There are in the Church many who are sincere and devout and devoted and blameless Christians. Believe me. I am privileged to know many and to be one myself in my small way.

You cannot realistically blame them for what many did or speak so ill of those who believe in our truth.

Any more that even I can say that all doctors are evil because some badly abused me and others.

Or all Gardai are corrupt etc.

Using words like "colluded " is totally inappropriate and inaccurate.

Living our faith is not evil in any way. It really is not.

The parts of the Church that abused are not Jesus. Or Christian. And who let the bad ones pollute you in this way?

Today I have visited the School Cemetery at Letterfrack. children, boys between 4 and 16 years old who suffered appalling abuse in the Industrial School having been committed there by the Gardai and yes the priest.

After my initial utter grief and outrage, as I trod gently through the rows of plaques, I saw and see the loving and living faith of the Catholics who have made the bare graveyard into a loving tribute to the little ones.

Why should they abandon their faith and the expression of it in their lives, in the most important events in those lives?

That is to let the evil truly win.

What stuck in my craw and had me sweeping out of the church was the costly and mawkish memorial in the church. Three sturdy happy lads on a climbing frame and the words above it; "IF ONLY"

All the small town knew what was being done there.

I know many true Catholics and yes, good priests ,and good nuns. People who have been as Christ to me at times of great need. Because they lived the life that truly is of Jesus.

I honestly think that what I have bolded ? Work it out please.

It is now official here in Galway that no decisions will be made re further excavations and no involvement from the coroner until the report is completed late this year

It is getting near Easter after a bitter Lent and for me this means less time online and more in prayer.

PS I have to been to mass since this broke and today was the first time since then that I have been in a church. This has been a frequent way for me to cope. My deep faith remains intact however as that is safe with Jesus.
That in no way means I will condemn or blame anyone who goes to mass or celebrates their child's confirmation and First Communion. I will share their joy.

Not planning to be around much the next while ; blessings and peace.

Graces7

Boggy Turf wrote: »

+1000

How people validate their membership of that 'criminal' organisation is completely beyond me.

We do not need to validate our faith in Jesus. Or how we live that faith. Period.

Most are as horrified and appalled as you are, but we know the power of prayer .
Membership is not the right word either.

Boggy Turf

Graces7 wrote: »

We do not need to validate our faith in Jesus. Or how we live that faith. Period.

Most are as horrified and appalled as you are, but we know the power of prayer .
Membership is not the right word either.

Membership is exactly the right word.

Membership of an organisation and belief in the supernatural are 2 completely different things.

Boggy Turf

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Membership is exactly the right word.

Membership of an organisation and belief in the supernatural are 2 completely different things.

You know, for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can criticise the Church for telling people how to act - and then go on to tell people how to act.

As Graces7 said, there are many good people in the Church.

Like any other organisation, there have been some very bad ones, too.

Those of us who try to lead good, decent lives are free to do so, thankfully.

The same society that allows you to express your disbelief allows us to express our belief.

And that is how it should be - without being lectured on what we are "allowed" to believe - or anything else that doesn't involve harm to others.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Deleted User wrote: »

You know, for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can criticise the Church for telling people how to act - and then go on to tell people how to act.

As Graces7 said, there are many good people in the Church.

Like any other organisation, there have been some very bad ones, too.

Those of us who try to lead good, decent lives are free to do so, thankfully.

The same society that allows you to express your disbelief allows us to express our belief.

And that is how it should be - without being lectured on what we are "allowed" to believe - or anything else that doesn't involve harm to others.

Of course what you say is correct but Graces7 cannot deny that 'membership' is the correct term. We are members of the church organisation. She would have been more correct to question the asserting that it is a criminal organisation. The organisation is not criminal because some members behaved as criminals. No more than a sports organisation is criminal because some coaches were involved in criminal activity.
If someone wants to look on faith and religion as belief in the supernatural then fine. Indeed they are somewhat correct, as supernatural means 'unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature ' which is in essence what we say of God and faith. If they want to say we believe in hocus pocus, then fine too - their loss.

Boggy Turf

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

The organisation is not criminal because some members behaved as criminals. No more than a sports organisation is criminal because some coaches were involved in criminal activity.

Do you consider the priests and bishops that covered up pedophilia and moved pedophiles on to other parishes to be criminals? Genuine question.
For example, Sean Brady.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Do you consider the priests and bishops that covered up pedophilia and moved pedophiles on to other parishes to be criminals? Genuine question.
For example, Sean Brady.

Of course, I do.

Boggy Turf

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

Of course, I do.

How then did he become leader of the Roman catholic church in Ireland?
How did people allow/accept that? He was allowed to retire gracefully.
After the Brendan Smyth case, Brady should have been imprisoned. He knew about Smyth since 1975!
Did people feel the oath of silence and threat of excommunication to abused children was not a cause for resignation when Smyth was finally caught??
Would the same happen in a sporting organisation?

volchitsa

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

Of course, I do.

So since all the evidence is that the cover up went right up to the top, at what point does the institution itself have collective responsibility?

Remember that Sean Brady was made Cardinal when those in the church knew of his actions, though the rest of us didn't - but it sure looks like a reward for his unquestioning "loyalty". Which may also be why his supposed offer to resign was refused.

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

Of course what you say is correct but Graces7 cannot deny that 'membership' is the correct term. We are members of the church organisation. She would have been more correct to question the asserting that it is a criminal organisation. The organisation is not criminal because some members behaved as criminals. No more than a sports organisation is criminal because some coaches were involved in criminal activity.
If someone wants to look on faith and religion as belief in the supernatural then fine. Indeed they are somewhat correct, as supernatural means 'unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature ' which is in essence what we say of God and faith. If they want to say we believe in hocus pocus, then fine too - their loss.

I tend to agree with what you say.

Having said that, I have a tremendous admiration and respect for Graces7, and her dignity and faith despite her obvious pain.

I'm mostly inclined, at this point, to ignore those who want to play hypocritical, accusatory games.

I've searched for as much of the truth as I can find. I've looked at the history, the political situation, the culture, and the poverty. I've puzzled over why people from all walks of life behaved as they did - all in the interests of finding the whole truth, in the hope that we, as a society, might learn how to prevent anything similar in the future, and also, in the hope of closure for the victims.

Ive read hysterical nonsense in a lot of places, posted by people who try to make people believe that all of the Church is evil, and that people should somehow be denied the right to religious freedom.

Such people fail to see that they themselves have become the oppressor, and would have us believe that they are the sole judge of good and evil.

There are lessons that could, and should, be learned. The irony is that those who shout the loudest usually aren't those who can see real evil in our society now, and, frankly, know nothing about the history then, or how what happened came to be.

I could sit and type for hours about truly awful things that were done to people - but, precisely because it wasn't a priest or nun who did these things, I wouldn't be believed, and I wouldn't waste my time talking to people who have already made their minds up. As far as they are concerned, the victims don't matter, the jury has spoken - all that remains is for the execution, and that can't come fast enough for them.

These pages are not full of people who want justice, or a better future for people for the most part.
Some posters want that - but too many just want a stick to beat the Church with. Nothing else will do. No-one else deserves condemnation, for the most part, according to our new "moral guardians":rolleyes:.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Dr Strange

So, it's almost the end of the month and no news, has this fallen by the wayside? The next step should've been for the coroner making a decision on what should happen next but it seems nothing is happening.

Zebra3

Graces7 wrote: »

Ahem. There are in the Church many who are sincere and devout and devoted and blameless Christians. Believe me. I am privileged to know many and to be one myself in my small way.

You cannot realistically blame them for what many did or speak so ill of those who believe in our truth.

Any more that even I can say that all doctors are evil because some badly abused me and others.

Or all Gardai are corrupt etc.

Using words like "colluded " is totally inappropriate and inaccurate.

Living our faith is not evil in any way. It really is not.

The parts of the Church that abused are not Jesus. Or Christian. And who let the bad ones pollute you in this way?

Today I have visited the School Cemetery at Letterfrack. children, boys between 4 and 16 years old who suffered appalling abuse in the Industrial School having been committed there by the Gardai and yes the priest.

After my initial utter grief and outrage, as I trod gently through the rows of plaques, I saw and see the loving and living faith of the Catholics who have made the bare graveyard into a loving tribute to the little ones.

Why should they abandon their faith and the expression of it in their lives, in the most important events in those lives?

That is to let the evil truly win.

What stuck in my craw and had me sweeping out of the church was the costly and mawkish memorial in the church. Three sturdy happy lads on a climbing frame and the words above it; "IF ONLY"

All the small town knew what was being done there.

I know many true Catholics and yes, good priests ,and good nuns. People who have been as Christ to me at times of great need. Because they lived the life that truly is of Jesus.

I honestly think that what I have bolded ? Work it out please.

It is now official here in Galway that no decisions will be made re further excavations and no involvement from the coroner until the report is completed late this year

It is getting near Easter after a bitter Lent and for me this means less time online and more in prayer.

PS I have to been to mass since this broke and today was the first time since then that I have been in a church. This has been a frequent way for me to cope. My deep faith remains intact however as that is safe with Jesus.
That in no way means I will condemn or blame anyone who goes to mass or celebrates their child's confirmation and First Communion. I will share their joy.

Not planning to be around much the next while ; blessings and peace.

It is a criminal organisation rotten to the core.

The average Catholic has done nothing about the crimes committed. I never recall hearing of anyone standing up in a church and condemning the criminality of their organisation. No, the cowards just sat on their hands and kept stumping up the cash to the mafia.

If you don't see that as collusion, that's your problem.

kylith

I don't think anyone is criticising devout Christians. The criticism of 'validating' the RCC is aimed at those who are members in name only. Who get married in a church because it's the done thing and the pictures are nice, who baptise their kids so granny won't get a puss on her and then aren't seen again until communion so the child 'doesn't feel left out' because all the other kids in their church-controlled school (who also haven't been in a church since baptism) are doing it. These are the people who, by signing their children up for a corrupt organisation that they don't even believe in, falsely bolster the RCC's position in this country.

Seriously: if you don't believe in the teachings of the RCC you shouldn't be signing your children up for it. Tell granny to get over herself, she'll live. All it would take is for one generation to grow a spine and this organisation would be the tiny niche group that it actually is.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

It is a criminal organisation rotten to the core.

The average Catholic has done nothing about the crimes committed. I never recall hearing of anyone standing up in a church and condemning the criminality of their organisation. No, the cowards just sat on their hands and kept stumping up the cash to the mafia.

If you don't see that as collusion, that's your problem.

That would be rather dramatic, would it not?

You are not in a position to know what has passed between every Catholic and the hierarchy.

Nor, frankly, given your attitude, is it any of your business.

Thankfully, people have a right to freedom of religion in this Country, whether you like it, or not!

the_syco

Graces7 wrote: »

but we know the power of prayer

The power (that Rome has) of prayer over the faithful; pray to your god, but don't question your masters.

Dr Strange wrote: »

So, it's almost the end of the month and no news, has this fallen by the wayside? The next step should've been for the coroner making a decision on what should happen next but it seems nothing is happening.

It'll be interesting to see what smokescreen comes out from the church around the same time as the coroners report.

tara73

kylith wrote: »

I don't think anyone is criticising devout Christians. The criticism of 'validating' the RCC is aimed at those who are members in name only. Who get married in a church because it's the done thing and the pictures are nice, who baptise their kids so granny won't get a puss on her and then aren't seen again until communion so the child 'doesn't feel left out' because all the other kids in their church-controlled school (who also haven't been in a church since baptism) are doing it. These are the people who, by signing their children up for a corrupt organisation that they don't even believe in, falsely bolster the RCC's position in this country.

Seriously: if you don't believe in the teachings of the RCC you shouldn't be signing your children up for it. Tell granny to get over herself, she'll live. All it would take is for one generation to grow a spine and this organisation would be the tiny niche group that it actually is.

+1000

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be rather dramatic, would it not?

You are not in a position to know what has passed between every Catholic and the hierarchy.

Nor, frankly, given your attitude, is it any of your business.

Thankfully, people have a right to freedom of religion in this Country, whether you like it, or not!

The people of Ireland also have the right to live their lives free from the interference of criminal organisations.

The right to pray to mythical deities cannot be used as a cover for mafiosi organisations to exist.

volchitsa

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be rather dramatic, would it not?

Really? If they stood up and protested because they were unhappy that they hadn't been consulted over some detail, then yes - but are you really saying it would be an overly dramatic act to make as a protest against deliberate and systematic cover up of child abuse?

I disagree.

You are not in a position to know what has passed between every Catholic and the hierarchy.

Well, we know that if they did protest in private they were clearly ignored. So maybe standing up in public might have been the way to go if anyone wanted to nt more harm being done to children.

Nor, frankly, given your attitude, is it any of your business.

So being critical of an organization that covered up child abuse removes one's right to criticize that organization?

Interesting logic. As is the implication that harm to children shouldn't be the business of society in general. Do you apply that to everything? None of your business if I beat my kids, right?

Thankfully, people have a right to freedom of religion in this Country, whether you like it, or not!

Everyone does indeed, but then the poster didn't suggest otherwise - I think it was more puzzlement that nobody within the church had the guts to stand up to them despite their criminal activities.

juno10353

Have just rewatched the film Evelyn with Pierce Brosnan, about a father fighting for the right to raise his daughter as a single father, through the Irish Supreme Court. Shows Ireland's view of family and church and children at the time.

Boggy Turf

kylith wrote: »

Seriously: if you don't believe in the teachings of the RCC you shouldn't be signing your children up for it. Tell granny to get over herself, she'll live. All it would take is for one generation to grow a spine and this organisation would be the tiny niche group that it actually is.

I do think the current young generation will make this happen. They do not have the same hangups, fears and brainwashing that their parents have.

A Little Pony

Zebra3 wrote: »

We've known of the crimes of the Roman church for a long time now yet still ordinary Irish people have colluded with them.

Continued funding them through wedding and christening "donations", the christenings giving them new members, cowards refusing to speak up and get the people we elect to get the vermin out of our every day lives.

A lot of people need to take a good look at themselves.

Actually not all Irish people did submit to them and haven't since the reformation. Nearly a million of them in Northern Ireland bare no responsibility for this.

Zebra3

A Little Pony wrote: »

Actually not all Irish people did submit to them and haven't since the reformation. Nearly a million of them in Northern Ireland bare no responsibility for this.

Correct, and I never said they did.

Though most of those you refer to would be strong supporters of Britain's war crimes and human rights abuses.

Noddyholder

In todays CSO papers for 2016, it says the percentage of people who define them selfs as catholic has fallen sharply, from 84.2 to 78.3

cant do link.

pilly

Noddyholder wrote: »

In todays CSO papers for 2016, it says the percentage of people who define them selfs as catholic has fallen sharply, from 84.2 to 78.3

cant do link.

Still extremely high. I wouldn't imagine 78.3% of the people I know would pick Catholic on the census. Maybe they do out of laziness or doubt though. (the just in case Catholic my mother used to call them)!

sondagefaux

The numbers of people declaring themselves to be of 'No Religion' are up by 73% since 2011 to 468,400 in 2016, or 9.8% of the total population.

It's the fastest growing group in the state. I think it'll nearly double again by 2021, as more and more people get over the whole 'I'm not religious but I'm declaring myself to be a Catholic as I was raised as one' thing, and as more and more people lose interest in religion.

http://cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/pressreleases/2017/prCensussummarypart1.pdf

Mountainsandh

kylith wrote: »

I don't think anyone is criticising devout Christians. The criticism of 'validating' the RCC is aimed at those who are members in name only. Who get married in a church because it's the done thing and the pictures are nice, who baptise their kids so granny won't get a puss on her and then aren't seen again until communion so the child 'doesn't feel left out' because all the other kids in their church-controlled school (who also haven't been in a church since baptism) are doing it. These are the people who, by signing their children up for a corrupt organisation that they don't even believe in, falsely bolster the RCC's position in this country.

Seriously: if you don't believe in the teachings of the RCC you shouldn't be signing your children up for it. Tell granny to get over herself, she'll live. All it would take is for one generation to grow a spine and this organisation would be the tiny niche group that it actually is.

Kylith, I'm one of the spineless ones, I tick all the boxes in your post. But it's not so much out of fear of the mother in law that we went along with the whole charade, it's more a mix of misinformation (your kids have to be baptised to get into school), and also, as regards getting married in a Church 13 years ago, that there was little else available at the time in terms of ceremonies. Between a registrars office in the old hospital and a church, a church was the most appealing of settings, plus we both more or less thought we were still catholics at the time.
There was the mother in law thing a bit, but at the time it was more the grand mother in law, who was still alive, and others of her generation. These same people were never told when one of the sons came out as gay too, why upset them in their old age ?

Things are changing fast, information is more forthcoming now. The mil's generation have successfully transitioned to accepting gay marriage. I would expect, too, that my children's generation will have no qualms opting for all the other, non-religious options. They'll know about them to start with.

I put us all down as no religion this year on the census. The other years, it just didn't seem important. Now it does.

Dr Strange

Letters between the commission and the Minister on the shocking number of human remains at Tuam released under the Freedom of Information Act: http://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-tuam-3326484-Apr2017/

gucci

kylith wrote: »

I don't think anyone is criticising devout Christians. The criticism of 'validating' the RCC is aimed at those who are members in name only. Who get married in a church because it's the done thing and the pictures are nice, who baptise their kids so granny won't get a puss on her and then aren't seen again until communion so the child 'doesn't feel left out' because all the other kids in their church-controlled school (who also haven't been in a church since baptism) are doing it. These are the people who, by signing their children up for a corrupt organisation that they don't even believe in, falsely bolster the RCC's position in this country.

Seriously: if you don't believe in the teachings of the RCC you shouldn't be signing your children up for it. Tell granny to get over herself, she'll live. All it would take is for one generation to grow a spine and this organisation would be the tiny niche group that it actually is.

tara73 wrote: »

+1000

+100000000 MORE AND MULTIPLIED BY INFINITY

Zebra3

Have the guards started an investigation yet?

nhunter100

Zebra3 wrote:

Have the guards started an investigation yet?

Too busy investigating themselves.