Repeal the 8th Bandwagoning

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 11:00PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Embryos are cells. A ball of cells. That's it. I don't know why everyone is objecting to this? It's not a baby. It's not "alive". There's no brain activity etc.

As for fatal fetal abnormality ... well, it's fatal. The foetus is dead, so not a viable life regardless of whatever else you think it may be. What are you getting at?

Nobody is objecting to a foetus being made up of cells. Adults are made up of cells too. I don't think anyone is objecting to that?

Yes. FFA is fatal. It's a bit like a spot. What's the harm in having a few extra cells?

One eyed Jack · 14-03-2017 11:02PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Embryos are cells. A ball of cells. That's it. I don't know why everyone is objecting to this? It's not a baby. It's not "alive". There's no brain activity etc.

I object to the characterisation of human life as though it's nothing more than merely a 'ball of cells' as you put it. It's an attempt to deligitimise and dehumanise human life, and that might work for you, but it sure as hell doesn't work for me, and I suspect it won't work for many more people than you seem to think it should work for. It's as though you're determined to make people vote to keep the 8th amendment in place for fear of where the likes of your poor line of thinking might lead to for Irish society.

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:05PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ben Shapiro handles one of these 'It's just a bunch of cells' folk quite well in the following clip.

Audio not the best though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyKwybSueDE

Ben Shapiro is a writer and commentator (for Breitbart, no less). He's not a scientist and has no scientific qualification from what I can see. So forgive me if I continue to place my absolute trust in Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins et al.

January · 14-03-2017 11:05PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

Nobody is objecting to a foetus being made up of cells. Adults are made up of cells too. I don't think anyone is objecting to that?

Yes. FFA is fatal. It's a bit like a spot. What's the harm in having a few extra cells?

What's the harm in having a few extra cells? Seriously? Look up edwards syndrome.

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:07PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I object to the characterisation of human life as though it's nothing more than merely a 'ball of cells' as you put it. It's an attempt to deligitimise and dehumanise human life, and that might work for you, but it sure as hell doesn't work for me, and I suspect it won't work for many more people than you seem to think it should work for. It's as though you're determined to make people vote to keep the 8th amendment in place for fear of where the likes of your poor line of thinking might lead to for Irish society.

But, scientifically speaking, that's what it is. An Embryo is not a baby. It's a tiny ball of cells clinging to a uterine wall. You can get all hysterical about it. You can find it repugnant. Fine. That's your call. But you can't make these decisions for other people and all women deserve to have a choice. Because you are not the boss of everyone else.

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 11:08PM

January wrote: »

What's the harm in having a few extra cells? Seriously? Look up edwards syndrome.

It doesn't matter what syndrome if the foetus is just a bunch of cells. It's just cells.

One eyed Jack · 14-03-2017 11:08PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Ben Shapiro is a writer and commentator (for Breitbart, no less). He's not a scientist and has no scientific qualification from what I can see. So forgive me if I continue to place my absolute trust in Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins et al.

Well at least that explains where the poor line in thinking that I referred to earlier, is coming from.

January · 14-03-2017 11:09PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

It doesn't matter what syndrome if the foetus is just a bunch of cells. It's just cells.

Somebody said an embryo is just cells not a foetus

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:10PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well at least that explains where the poor line in thinking that I referred to earlier, is coming from.

You have a problem with world respected, highly qualified scientists? That's the problem with the anti-choice movement. It's the outright rejection of science and the over reliance on emotion and hysteria. It does you no credit.

Will I Am Not · 14-03-2017 11:11PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Ben Shapiro is a writer and commentator (for Breitbart, no less). He's not a scientist and has no scientific qualification from what I can see. So forgive me if I continue to place my absolute trust in Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins et al.

You're not going to be swayed by a scientist on the opposite side either so it's irrelevant what position he holds.

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 11:12PM

January wrote: »

Somebody said an embryo is just cells not a foetus

What's a foetus made of then?

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:16PM

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You're not going to be swayed by a scientist on the opposite side either so it's irrelevant what position he holds.

I'm certainly not going to be swayed by a scientist from the other side before I've even heard one speaking.

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:18PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

I'm certainly not going to be swayed by a scientist from the other side before I've even heard one speaking.

tbh id say you're too heavily invested now to even hear whats said. As if there's only two sides on this. ffs

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:20PM

D0NNELLY wrote: »

tbh id say you're too heavily invested now to even hear whats said.

Is that a face-saving way of saying you have no evidence that doesn't come from either Precious Life or crazy right-wing religious fanatics?

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:24PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Is that a face-saving way of saying you have no evidence that doesn't come from either Precious Life or crazy right-wing religious fanatics?

I dont know what the two options youve given me are, so youll have to settle with moderate irish.. sorry!

One eyed Jack · 14-03-2017 11:25PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

But, scientifically speaking, that's what it is. An Embryo is not a baby. It's a tiny ball of cells clinging to a uterine wall. You can get all hysterical about it. You can find it repugnant. Fine. That's your call. But you can't make these decisions for other people and all women deserve to have a choice. Because you are not the boss of everyone else.

I have a 12 year old at home that tries that argument; it doesn't work for him either :pac:

To address the rest of what you wrote:

We are not solely talking about science here, we are talking about an amendment that has been written into the Irish Constitution, so unless Bill Nye or Richard Dawkins have a background in Constitutional Law, their occupation is of as much use to anyone here as a chocolate teapot.

Secondly - I'm not getting hysterical about anything, I've been hearing the 'ball of cells' bollocks for about 20 odd years now, it wore thin after about the third time, now it's just laughable.

Thirdly - because this is a Constitutional amendment we're discussing, I absolutely can make decisions for other people, and you can get hysterical about that, and find it repugnant, and tell me all women deserve to have a choice, and I can simply say to that - tough titty! Legally speaking, that is me exercising both my right to freedom of expression, and my right to vote in a referendum regarding proposals for any change the Irish Constitution. Those are legal rights conferred upon me as a citizen of this country. They are recognised in law. Scientific opinion isn't particularly relevant as you may have noticed in drafting legislation in this country.

I think that about covers it.

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:29PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I have a 12 year old at home that tries that argument; it doesn't work for him either :pac:

To address the rest of what you wrote:

We are not solely talking about science here, we are talking about an amendment that has been written into the Irish Constitution, so unless Bill Nye or Richard Dawkins have a background in Constitutional Law, their occupation is of as much use to anyone here as a chocolate teapot.

Secondly - I'm not getting hysterical about anything, I've been hearing the 'ball of cells' bollocks for about 20 odd years now, it wore thin after about the third time, now it's just laughable.

Thirdly - because this is a Constitutional amendment we're discussing, I absolutely can make decisions for other people, and you can get hysterical about that, and find it repugnant, and tell me all women deserve to have a choice, and I can simply say to that - tough titty! Legally speaking, that is me exercising both my right to freedom of expression, and my right to vote in a referendum regarding proposals for any change the Irish Constitution. Those are legal rights conferred upon me as a citizen of this country. They are recognised in law. Scientific opinion isn't particularly relevant as you may have noticed in drafting legislation in this country.

I think that about covers it.

We're clearly digressing into the abortion laws here, so my comments are relevant. Also, check your privilege yeah? You really don't get to decide what other people do with their bodies, any more than I decide what you do with yours.

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:30PM

D0NNELLY wrote: »

I dont know what the two options youve given me are, so youll have to settle with moderate irish.. sorry!

Well, in light of that answer, I'll take that as a no. You don't have any scientific evidence.

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:31PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

We're clearly digressing into the abortion laws here, so my comments are relevant. Also, check your privilege yeah? You really don't get to decide what other people do with their bodies, any more than I decide what you do with yours.

or a baby living in a womans body. so thats that. noone can speak for anothers body. Cheers, finally thats cleared up!

marienbad · 14-03-2017 11:32PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Thirdly - because this is a Constitutional amendment we're discussing, I absolutely can make decisions for other people, and you can get hysterical about that, and find it repugnant, and tell me all women deserve to have a choice, and I can simply say to that - tough titty!

I think that about covers it.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king - and thankfully your day my friend is done , so lord it over others while you can because soon it will be in the past .

If not the first referendum then the one after , And I for one will be glad to see the back of ye opposing every bit of progressive legislation for 50 years .

I think that about covers it

retro:electro · 14-03-2017 11:35PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

Using that logic,
A foetus with fatal fetal abnormality is just cells. What difference does it make if it's removed or not?

Because it's cruel to expect a mother to carry around a baby inside of her that is basically all but dead and won't survive outside of the womb. It is the cruelest thing to expect her to carry that with her for 9 months. In some cases she may want to, in no case should she have to.

Lady Spangles · 14-03-2017 11:35PM

D0NNELLY wrote: »

or a baby living in a womans body. so thats that. noone can speak for anothers body. Cheers, finally thats cleared up!

Oh hardly! As I have said a hundred times, it's not a sentient human being.

And while we're on the subject of the constitutional issues here, do the UN get a say in this? They've already stated that Ireland is in breach of a woman's human rights as things stand.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/ireland-abortion-laws-violated-human-rights-says-un

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:35PM

marienbad wrote: »

Iprogressive legislation

you dont get to jump onto that ship, sorry

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:38PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Oh hardly! As I have said a hundred times, it's not a sentient human being.

And while we're on the subject of the constitutional issues here, do the UN get a say in this? They've already stated that Ireland is in breach of a woman's human rights as things stand.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/ireland-abortion-laws-violated-human-rights-says-un

A panel of UN human rights committee experts found that Ireland’s prohibition and criminalisation of abortion services subjected Amanda Mellet to severe emotional and mental pain and suffering in 2011, when she was told she could not have an abortion in Ireland even though doctors had discovered that the foetus had congenital defects that meant it would die in the womb or shortly after birth.

noone disagrees with that.

marienbad · 14-03-2017 11:41PM

D0NNELLY wrote: »

you dont get to jump onto that ship, sorry

you don't get to decide , not sorry .

jameorahiely · 14-03-2017 11:41PM

anna080 wrote: »

Because it's cruel to expect a mother to carry around a baby inside of her that is basically all but dead and won't survive outside of the womb. It is the cruelest thing to expect her to carry that with her for 9 months. In some cases she may want to, in no case should she have to.

So they are not "just cells".They are significant cells. Would that be fair to say? )

me_right_one · 14-03-2017 11:43PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

We're clearly digressing into the abortion laws here, so my comments are relevant. Also, check your privilege yeah? You really don't get to decide what other people do with their bodies, any more than I decide what you do with yours.

Does your mammy know you're using up all her internet?

Pseudorandom · 14-03-2017 11:45PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

You have a problem with world respected, highly qualified scientists? That's the problem with the anti-choice movement. It's the outright rejection of science and the over reliance on emotion and hysteria. It does you no credit.

Sorry, Bill Nye is a mechanical engineer not a "highly qualified scientist".

I'm pro-repeal but the arguments to authority are silly when they aren't even authorities.

I think the main point to make is that repealing the 8th won't suddenly make abortion legal or anything like that. What it will do is make abortion a matter of legislation rather than constitution. Even if you're anti abortion you should be pro repealing the 8th because of the demonstrably poor effect it has had on maternal health in Ireland:
http://parentsforchoice.ie/the-8th-amendment-and-maternity-care/
It removes a lot of the choices that would be available to doctors because life saving interventions for the mother have to be equally weighed against the (possible) harm it might do to the foetus.

Before anyone says that Ireland has one of the best maternal outcomes in Europe, please note that that's based on very misleading figures supplied by Ireland in which (for example) Savita Halpannavar would not have been counted as a pregnancy related death.

One eyed Jack · 14-03-2017 11:45PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

We're clearly digressing into the abortion laws here, so my comments are relevant. Also, check your privilege yeah? You really don't get to decide what other people do with their bodies, any more than I decide what you do with yours.

Check my what? Sorry? I'm already after telling you - I do get to decide what other people can legally do with their own bodies through numerous instruments of the State. It's about time we started talking within a legal framework, because the so-called "scientific" arguments certainly weren't going to get you anywhere.

Lady Spangles wrote: »

You have a problem with world respected, highly qualified scientists? That's the problem with the anti-choice movement. It's the outright rejection of science and the over reliance on emotion and hysteria. It does you no credit.

The problem with them is that they are only well respected as scientists, for their contribution to the popularisation of science. The problem with some people in the "pro-choice" movement, is that their thinking is so black and white, and they have such a persecution complex, that they think anyone who disagrees with their perspective, must be "anti-choice". This is why I choose not to give a shìt for meaningless labels, particularly when someone can label themselves both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" if they accept allowing for abortion to terminate a pregnancy before 12 weeks.

I'm all over the science of this btw, love science I do, just not the shìtty efforts of some people to try and dehumanise human life to promote their own ridiculous politicised agenda, and when challenged on it then they rely on appeals to emotion, fallacious logic, irrational arguments, and hysteria. That does nobody any favours tbh.

D0NNELLY · 14-03-2017 11:46PM

marienbad wrote: »

you don't get to decide , not sorry .

D0NNELLY wrote: »

you dont get to jump onto that ship, sorry

you're not going to deflect what i said,

And I for one will be glad to see the back of ye opposing every bit of progressive legislation for 50 years

im not going to decide anything. But i will absolutely counter random rubbish spouted

Repeal the 8th Bandwagoning

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