Repeal the 8th Bandwagoning

Woodhenge

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am sure that Repealing the 8th will be closer than SSM. It could well be defeated, but there is no real downside to trying and failing - there is no prospect of abortion getting less available, and we can wait 10 years and try again, when the shadow of the Catholic Church has lifted a bit further.

This is another thing the Repeal campaign misjudge and alientate people on. I'm an atheist, I don't refer to any religious arguments or doctrine to scrutinise the weakness in pro-choice arguments.

The Repeal campaign spectacularly misjudge concepts such as dignity as being the preserve of priests, nuns and the like. We don't make immigrants shower naked in public on arrival because that would be a grevious assault on their dignity inherent in being human. We don't need to look to the Catholic Church for guidance on this, banishing Catholicism would not make it more acceptable.

ScumLord

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Lots of rural areas were close enough to going no in the marriage referendum and I could see their being a big swing to keeping the 8th if the were asked to vote. It would really take a turnout in Dublin and commuter counties for it to pass!

I think the marriage referendum could have softened people up for the 8th. I'm still quiet surprised by how it changed some people. People you'd think would hate the gays until the day they died now couldn't care less. Once accepting that some people are gay became the social norm they lost all interest in maintaining that hatred.

I think a lot of mothers will always have a hard time seeing unborn humans as anything other than fully fledged humans. They have a different interaction with the unborn that no man can properly understand and a woman that's never had a child can't really fully understand either. I think that gives them a certain amount of bias, especially from mothers that have had pretty good experiences with their families or have had to fight to have children.

I'm not saying that bias is a bad thing, just that they should bare in mind that not everyone can understand their point of view. The baby inside you was using every trick in the baby book to get you emotionally attached to it before it even showed up. There's a certain amount of instinctive bias pulling the strings.

That's not to say mothers can't make logical decision to allow abortions, just that there probably are mothers that can't even contemplate allowing it because it sickens their very core even thinking about it. It's hard to separate the positive emotions they've experienced having children from the realities of other people's lives.

I think abortions should be allowed up to a point. On medical grounds there shouldn't even be a debate. Overall I think if people are going to be having sex they need to take into account sexs main purpose is to reproduce, if you have a baby, well that's what was supposed to happen now take responsibility and raise that citizen proper.

jameorahiely

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are wrong, and this is not a matter of opinion.

If you take a child out into international waters, shoot them, return and tell everyone, you will be arrested and tried. Our state claims international jurisdiction for murder.

The 8th originally provided the same protection for the unborn, but when the AG tried enforcing that, we passed a referendum to prevent him doing it again.

Essentially, a "just kidding" clause removing the equal right to life of the unborn as long as the abortion does not happen in holy catholic ireland.

Because everyone knows abortion is not murder. It was never classed as murder before, it isn't now. It never will be.

abortions are happening in ireland.
So it is happening in "our backyard"

Fail, what are you on about?

Zubeneschamali

Woodhenge wrote: »

We don't need to look to the Catholic Church for guidance on this, banishing Catholicism would not make it more acceptable.

Never mind atheists, all the Christian Churches in Ireland were opposed to passing the 8th in the first place.

Except the Roman Catholic church.

This whole fetish about zygote souls is an exclusively Catholic thing.

Zubeneschamali

jameorahiely wrote: »

Fail, what are you on about?

The clue is in the little bit of the post I quote in my reply:

But sure people can only control what happens in their own country. We have no say in what goes on outside of Ireland.

This is wrong, which is why we had to have the 13th and 14th amendments.

Zillah

Whatever else about the debate, the video in the OP is a total pile of deceptive garbage. Deliberately catching people off guard, showing them as they struggle to collect their thoughts on camera and then blatantly cutting out anything else they say.

D0NNELLY

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I think wanting a say in your own body is good reason enough

Not when you're speaking for two completely different scenarios. So far I've read "only a clump of cells", and I'd agree with that, same as i don't mourn for the sperm on the tissue.
But then there's the "up to 24 weeks" crowd. They can feck off. That's a baby they're taking about.

jameorahiely

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The clue is in the little bit of the post I quote in my reply:

But sure people can only control what happens in their own country. We have no say in what goes on outside of Ireland.

This is wrong, which is why we had to have the 13th and 14th amendments.

But you said it didn't happen in holy catholic ireland.
They do.
You were wrong

Zubeneschamali

Zillah wrote: »

Whatever else about the debate, the video in the OP is a total pile of deceptive garbage.

If you thought the SSM campaign got down and dirty, just wait for this one to start in earnest.

This could be the dying gasp of Holy Catholic Ireland, and they are not going to hold anything back, no matter how foul.

snowflaker

The Equal Marriage campaign will be like a pillow fight compared to this!

Zubeneschamali

jameorahiely wrote: »

But you said it didn't happen in holy catholic ireland. They do. You were wrong

Passing the 8th made abortion legal here in Ireland by accident, because the authors over-reached themselves trying to establish a positive right to life for the unborn rather than just keeping abortion illegal.

But that is not what I was talking about in the post you are replying to - I was talking about the mistaken idea that Irish laws only apply on Irish soil, so we couldn't make traveling to England for an abortion illegal.

I say this is a mistaken idea because it is contradicted by actual events - we DID make traveling to England for an abortion illegal, except in the accidental case above where we made abortion legal here in Ireland. But we had another referendum, and made traveling to England for an abortion a Constitutional right.

RayM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are perhaps unaware that the Iona Institute argued against civil partnerships back in 2007, and after they lost, they then opposed SSM on the grounds that wonderful civil partnerships were available.

I remember they sneakily deleted an anti-civil-partnership article (by David Quinn) from their website because it contradicted their new argument that the uppity gays should be happy with the lovely civil partnerships we've already given them, out of the goodness of our pure christian hearts (or words to that effect). Iona are not to be trusted.

freshpopcorn

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am sure that Repealing the 8th will be closer than SSM. It could well be defeated, but there is no real downside to trying and failing - there is no prospect of abortion getting less available, and we can wait 10 years and try again, when the shadow of the Catholic Church has lifted a bit further.

ScumLord wrote: »

I think the marriage referendum could have softened people up for the 8th. I'm still quiet surprised by how it changed some people. People you'd think would hate the gays until the day they died now couldn't care less. Once accepting that some people are gay became the social norm they lost all interest in maintaining that hatred.

.

I was actually a little disappointed that the marriage referendum passed by only 12% and personally I know people of all ages who'd have no problem with same sex marriage or cannabis us and even euthanasia but something about theirs just something about abortion would make them very uneasy.
Even if I flick through pro life and repeal pages on facebook. I'd have more friends who are supporting the keeping the 8th than repealing it. These people would be young men and women. Who's be liberal and supported SSM and they wouldn't be religious.
The marriage referendum was easier to sell to people as happy thing. By saying your just giving people their big day out. I know guys who'd be homophobic and they'd supported the marriage referendum. I just don't know would the 8th be repealed going by how things are going at the moment!

vetinari

Considering that the SSM referendum passed, Iona's influence is clearly on the wane.
I think a Repeal referendum would pass but it'd be a lot closer than the SSM referendum.

One eyed Jack

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you thought the SSM campaign got down and dirty, just wait for this one to start in earnest.

This could be the dying gasp of Holy Catholic Ireland, and they are not going to hold anything back, no matter how foul.

The only thing I've read that's been foul so far is your fingers in your ears bollocks talk about "holy Catholic this" and "holy Catholic that", in almost every single post you've made so far in this thread. Who's not holding back exactly? You ignored many posters who are atheist and non-religious already on your anti-theist rants.

The SSM vote only passed because anyone who wasn't sick of listening to the ignorant fcukwits on both sides of the discussion, voted with the interests of their immediate family and friends in mind. The chance are they'll do the same again this time, while we'll still have to put up with a barrage of bullshìt commentary like your own from the usual media mouthpieces in the run up to any referendum, if there is even to be a referendum.

Will I Am Not

vetinari wrote: »

Considering that the SSM referendum passed, Iona's influence is clearly on the wane.
I think a Repeal referendum would pass but it'd be a lot closer than the SSM referendum.

Or maybe people just have their own opinions.

Dick phelan

Abortion for the most part is a cop out, people unwilling to face up to their responsibilities, the pro choice side use things like Rape, incest and FFA as re herrings but the reality is they are a tiny preportion of abortions that are carried out. Most are due to people not wanting to face responsibility for the life they have created through consensual sex. The old argument "not all contraception is 100% safe" is imo irrelevant, everybody knows or at least if their mature enough to be having sex should know things like condoms aren't full proof but you take the slight risk because of the payoff of pleasure. I'll admit it's hard to ask a women who was raped to carry the baby to term but let's not pretend that's the norm, man or woman you should accept responsibility for the life you created.

Dick phelan

Also the argument "my body my choice" if that's the case why don't people campaign to make Heroin legal or Meth, after all your body your choice right? Your body your choice except for the fact their is another body growing inside you and it is that life that will be lost during abortion not yours, i'm all for people doing what they want with their bodies i just don't like them deciding if another lives or dies.

noaddedsugar

Dick phelan wrote: »

Abortion for the most part is a cop out, people unwilling to face up to their responsibilities, the pro choice side use things like Rape, incest and FFA as re herrings but the reality is they are a tiny preportion of abortions that are carried out. Most are due to people not wanting to face responsibility for the life they have created through consensual sex. The old argument "not all contraception is 100% safe" is imo irrelevant, everybody knows or at least if their mature enough to be having sex should know things like condoms aren't full proof but you take the slight risk because of the payoff of pleasure. I'll admit it's hard to ask a women who was raped to carry the baby to term but let's not pretend that's the norm, man or woman you should accept responsibility for the life you created.

Why though? I am a parent, it is a long, hard slog. Why should people be forced into it when there is a really simple solution? Why martyr yourself for 18+ years when you don't have to?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Woodhenge

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Why though? I am a parent, it is a long, hard slog. Why should people be forced into it when there is a really simple solution? Why martyr yourself for 18+ years when you don't have to?

Because a baby is not like a gym membership voucher.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I know lots of people who want the 8th amendment repealed however one problem people have is with they people involved in the repeal campaign is their all on different pages regarding what circumstances they want abortion allowed.

Yes, because they are united in wanting to repeal the eighth amendment. That's what they all have in common, and because the stupid bloody thing was put there with its terrible wording in the first place everything else is a moot point until it's gone.

It's like you're saying "these people want coffee legalised in Ireland but shur I was talking to one who liked cappucinos and one who liked espressos so I don't know what they want at all, I don't like them"

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Dick phelan wrote: »

Also the argument "my body my choice" if that's the case why don't people campaign to make Heroin legal or Meth, after all your body your choice right? Your body your choice except for the fact their is another body growing inside you and it is that life that will be lost during abortion not yours, i'm all for people doing what they want with their bodies i just don't like them deciding if another lives or dies.

So you'd be an avid campaigner for mandatory organ and blood donation then? Or a hypocrite who only cares about that stuff when sex comes in to it?

pumpkin4life

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Why though? I am a parent, it is a long, hard slog. Why should people be forced into it when there is a really simple solution? Why martyr yourself for 18+ years when you don't have to?

Plenty of couples out there who would love to adopt a kid.

noaddedsugar

Woodhenge wrote: »

Because a baby is not like a gym membership voucher.

I know right? It is a massive thing to do, commit yourself to raising a child. It should only be done if you really want to.

noaddedsugar

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Plenty of couples out there who would love to adopt a kid.

You think adoption is simple?

Woodhenge

noaddedsugar wrote: »

I know right? It is a massive thing to do, commit yourself to raising a child. It should only be done if you really want to.

So until what age should infanticide be legal? Surely we'd have to let parents try out a bit of parenting before administering the medical procedure? Maybe until before they can write their name?

pumpkin4life

noaddedsugar wrote: »

You think adoption is simple?

It's not as simple as killing a baby cause of it being a long hard slog, I agree with that anyway.

jameorahiely

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Plenty of couples out there who would love to adopt a kid.

You'll trigger the incubator department

jameorahiely

Woodhenge wrote: »

So until what age should infanticide be legal? Surely we'd have to let parents try out a bit of parenting before administering the medical procedure? Maybe until before they can write their name?

In the Netherlands up to one year, in belguim they get a lomger trial run iirc