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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #2342
    Draco
    Subscribers Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭Draco


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Where does it say the religious orders were responsible?

    Like I said, fake news.
    So where else did the bodies dumped on land that was owned at the time by a religious order come from? Did the locals sneak in and dispose of their unwanted children under the noses of the local nuns?

    Calling it fake news because you don't like what it very obviously the truth shows that you're nothing more that an apologist for the Catholic Church and the terrible evils it has visited upon the children of this State.


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    #2343
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Where does it say the religious orders were responsible?

    Like I said, fake news.
    So someone snuck in and placed them them to frame the church?


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    #2344
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Whether the girls were raped, promiscuous or just plain out of control, their families had a duty of care towards them. I can see how it's convenient to simply shove all the blame on the Church. There's a lot of dark family secrets up and down the country that people want to stay secret.

    This is all irrelevant what-aboutery. Even if the families of those sent to these homes would have killed them themselves, how does that in any way absolve the Church of any responsibility for what the Church did to those women and children? The Church is the self-proclaimed moral guardians of humanity, it doesn't matter what the rest of society is like, they are supposed to have the only access to a perfect and never-changing of morality via the bible, or so they claim. They certainly didn't advertise those homes as places where children were far more likely to die than normal society. They took those women and children under the promise to take care of them in the name of God. And even if they didn't, even if they used weasel words and closed door agreements to undermine that promise, that still wouldn't absolve them. The Church murdered those babies and infants (yes, letting an infant die because it was too sickly and expensive to adopt to some American family or as result of pocketing the money paid to you for its care is murder), they are entirely responsible for that.


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    #2345
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Where does it say the religious orders were responsible?

    Like I said, fake news.

    You are sick in the head. Why are you defending the indefensible? An organisation with a history steeped in abuse and scandals.

    The catholic church don't give a crap about anyone. It's a business to make money from idiots. It's no different from Scientology in that regard. It's just a lot older.

    Pretty sad when atheists have better morals than a catholic church supporter. Says a lot really. Go back to the stone age please. I'm not an atheist either.

    You want to pin the blame on the families but the families were brainwashed by the church to believe that having a child out of wedlock was a mortal sin and most Irish people feared the church and did whatever they were told.

    The catholic church and it's blind devotees should be run out of the country.


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    #2346
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,851 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Who "buried" them there then, ****ing aliens?

    Nope, I'm sure one of Frosty's favourite news sources have already determined it's a Jewish false flag operation. The kind of news source who think The Walking Dead promotes "white genocide" and that rape should be legal on private property.


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    #2347
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    pilly wrote: »
    Can the words "fake news" please be banned from boards?

    It's just the Trump defence. Please posters come with an actual argument instead of that crap.

    But that's what is is. A little bit of fact and a lot of fiction presented as gospel truth. Trump has merely lifted the wool from people's eyes.


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    #2348
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    But that's what is is. A little bit of fact and a lot of fiction presented as gospel truth. Trump has merely lifted the wool from people's eyes.

    Okay so, another one for my ignore list.


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    #2349
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    But that's what is is. A little bit of fact and a lot of fiction presented as gospel truth.

    You mean like the bible?


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    #2350
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Where does it say the religious orders were responsible?

    Like I said, fake news.

    Aka, "dismiss reports that I don't like".

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2351
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    But that's what is is. A little bit of fact and a lot of fiction presented as gospel truth. Trump has merely lifted the wool from people's eyes.

    "A little bit of fact and a lot of fiction". I think you've just described your gospel. Would that you applied the same skepticism to that 'fake news'!

    (or even to the Daily Stormer, for that matter).


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    #2352
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Maybe it is fake news, maybe it's not. But the faux-outrage was entirely predicable.

    It's not fake, but it isn't really news, either - if you read back you will see that everyone here in this thread knew 800 children and babies were dumped in this unmarked pit by the nuns - we knew more than 2 years ago.

    And the outrage is not faux.

    But back in 2014, there were also lots of people like yourself trying to deflect responsibility from the nuns onto families, the State and so on. It won't work - families and the state did not starve these children to death and then inter them in a former sewer.

    Families and the State made the mistake of trusting the nuns. A big mistake.


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    #2353
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    (yes, letting an infant die because it was too sickly and expensive to adopt to some American family or as result of pocketing the money paid to you for its care is murder), they are entirely responsible for that.

    If you read back, you will see that historian Catherine Corless who kicked this off reported that many of the death certs she found recorded the cause of death as "malnourishment". The children starved to death.


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    #2354
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    King Mob wrote: »
    So someone snuck in and placed them them to frame the church?

    time-travelling atheists, obviously


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    #2355
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,562 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    What evidence is there that the religious orders buried the babies in this way? Or did you just make that up?

    Maybe a good question for the nuns is how were the burials performed without them, as you seem to be suggesting, being aware.

    Are you suggesting that other people with access to the home carried out the burials entirely without the nuns being curious? The absence of the children's bodies alone from the home should have been obvious and alarming to any adult residing in the home.

    The notion that a large number of deceased bodies, over such an extended period of years, were transferred from the home to a large hole in the ground without any of the nuns residing in the home becoming aware of it is an appalling vista.


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    #2356
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Fake news at its finest, well done.

    So the government wasn't at the opening?
    Or Tuam didn't happen?

    Which are you calling is false?

    We know for a fact both happened, so to claim either didn't is downright idiotic.


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    #2357
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Maybe a good question for the nuns is how were the burials performed without them, as you seem to be suggesting, being aware.

    Are you suggesting that other people with access to the home carried out the burials entirely without the nuns being curious? The absence of the children's bodies alone from the home should have been obvious and alarming to any adult residing in the home.

    The notion that a large number of deceased bodies, over such an extended period of years, were transferred from the home to a large hole in the ground without any of the nuns residing in the home becoming aware of it is an appalling vista.

    798 deaths and off hand I believe Catherine only found actually burial records for 2. To claim the other 796 body's were disposed of without the nuns knowledge is an incredible claim... Even for the likes of frosty.

    It shows the lengths some will go to move blame away from the Catholic Church.

    Of course even if we go with frosty idea that the nuns didn't know then that makes them negligent beyond belief and an apology and compensation should still be paid to the victims remaining familys. They should also pay for any and all cost to locate and identify body's due to their negligence.

    Of course that still doesn't address the unusually high death rate way above the national avg which shows criminal negligence in relation to the care of children in their care.


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    #2358
    Qs
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    King Mob wrote: »
    So someone snuck in and placed them them to frame the church?

    It was probably the devil, he has form on this, planted dinosaur bones too.


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    #2359
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Qs wrote: »
    It was probably the devil, he has form on this, planted dinosaur bones too.

    The devil, dressed as nuns maybe? :)


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    #2360
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kbannon wrote: »
    The RCC organisation has never cared about anything other than money!
    With due deference, I disagree - the church cares principally about securing its own future.

    Anything beyond that is there either to help that aim, or there just for show.


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    #2361
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Whether the girls were raped, promiscuous or just plain out of control, their families had a duty of care towards them. I can see how it's convenient to simply shove all the blame on the Church.
    Can't help but wonder if Ann Lovett and her child would have died - cold, alone and unloved - had that depraved and evil organization not done its damndest to block her, and so many other vulnerable, uninformed and innocent people, from learning anything about sex:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Lovett


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    #2362
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Fake news at its finest, well done.
    pilly wrote: »
    Can the words "fake news" please be banned from boards?
    Your friendly mods are looking to update the charter which hasn't seen any significant changes for the last six or eight years.

    We hope that some of this update can include some hints/rules which we hope can encourage legitimate, honest, open debate while discouraging posters who, for whatever reason, are unable to contribute at the high level demonstrated by, and expected by, the vast majority of other posters.


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    #2363
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    robindch wrote: »
    Can't help but wonder if Ann Lovett and her child would have died - cold, alone and unloved - had that depraved and evil organization not done its damndest to block her, and so many other vulnerable, uninformed and innocent people, from learning anything about sex:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Lovett

    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.


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    #2364
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.

    I dunno. I think maybe abandoning puritanical attitudes to sex and not interning pregnant women could have avoided the tragic outcomes that took place.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2365
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,056 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.

    Do you have any mental reservations about the issue? I understand they can come in very handy at times like this.

    Fr P D O'Foyle had them down to a fine art.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #2366
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Cabaal wrote: »
    798 deaths and off hand I believe Catherine only found actually burial records for 2. To claim the other 796 body's were disposed of without the nuns knowledge is an incredible claim... Even for the likes of frosty.

    Even if someone wants to run with this argument, they really would need to explain why the nuns didn't bother reporting to the Garda the disappearance of 796 infant bodies awaiting burial.


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    #2367
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.
    Your heartless, cliched response is cold beyond belief - even for a religious fundamentalist.


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    #2368
    Cork Link
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 17 ✭Cork Link


    Thank you Catherine Corless

    Metaphorically, you stood at the site, pointing down, and screamed outrage until something was done!


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    #2369
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.
    Maybe if the church listened to the church's message about not treating people like **** and burying dead children in septic tanks...

    Could you please at least confirm that you believe that the church is at least at fault somewhere in this?


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    #2370
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,562 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    You do realise that if people had actually listened to the Church's message of abstaining from sex outside marriage, then that tragedy would never had occurred, along with the Tuam babies, the Magdalene laundries etc. The Church's teachings are good and pure; it is man who is weak and sinful.

    I was thinking about asking if your opinion on responsibility for pregnancies was solely pointed towards women but i see you see that it was men who made the women pregnant, deleting the usual excuse of fallen women being solely responsible for their pregnancies.


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    #2371
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    smacl wrote: »
    Not true. Even today the Catholic church promote an archaic and rather toxic values that still consider premarital sex, gay sex, and contraception for example to be sinful and shameful. As the Catholic church has lost its power, society no longer adheres to these values, and many are openly critical of them. This clearly shows that the Catholic church were and still are instigators rather than just facilitators of such values.

    Yes, the RCC are the only organisation in the world to hold those views of course....
    Meanwhile our nearest neighbour, the UK there were never a need for mother and baby homes at all and things like homosexuality were legal and accepted in the 1920's.

    Did you know that some of the sisters who set up the first mother and baby homes in the 1920's were sent over from the UK and that they were modelled on those in Britain? Tell me then, how much power did the RCC have in the UK? Effectively no power of course, yet are you telling me they somehow brainwashed the British protestant establishment to hand in their pregnant women? Why did the USA have over 150 'maternity' homes in the 1960's run by private religious orders?

    As usual we are looking at this from an inward points of view, as if Ireland is unique and that the RCC is the seed that caused all this. Of course this world view is nonsense in the grand scheme of things.


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