Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

realdanbreen

magicbastarder wrote: »

but but but.

Do you agree when I suggest that there should be a full no holds barred investigation into this? I am seeing headlines and leading news story's but I still am unclear as to what exactly took place in Tuam.

aloyisious

I came across this linked newspaper report on F/B, THE LINK IS ABOVE THE EDIT entry... At the top of the page, the report is dated Monday Mar 6th 2017 but scrolling down a few lines is this: By Alison O'reilly For The Irish Mail On Sunday
PUBLISHED: 22:07, 26 December 2015 | UPDATED: 09:55, 27 December 2015. I see mention in it of the residents from the home being moved to another named location for children when the Tuam home was closed.

veracity will be in the eyes of the reader....


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374922/The-house-tears-Secret-tapes-woman-spent-years-controversial-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers-reveals-unmarked-mass-grave-children.html#ixzz4aZV4s14d
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

http://dailym.ai/1TlzivP

EDIT: - Below is a link to an irish current affairs programme with two former residents broadcast here in Ireland within the last two years.... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjHjKPqw8LSAhWJBcAKHco5BqoQtwIIGzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8rjzjFbPduE&usg=AFQjCNFqnvdCX_1zCHj-69WdgcmJKAG4HQ

magicbastarder

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you agree when I suggest that there should be a full no holds barred investigation into this? I am seeing headlines and leading news story's but I still am unclear as to what exactly took place in Tuam.

your post was just simple whataboutery.

Esel

I'm pretty sure I read/heard about 'dying rooms' in these homes.

Edit: Found these links:

http://www.thejournal.ie/mother-baby-homes-commission-inquiry-1830686-Dec2014/

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-/

ShooterSF

It's kinda (not) funny that in the next few days hundreds of kids up and down the country will be brought by parents for their confirmation lucky that they were not brought up in the care of the organisation they are committing themselves to, lest they be too dead to do so.

smacl

aloyisious

The Tuam Home story was just discussed by Joe Duffy, Catherine Corless and a priest, Fr Paul, re an article Fr Paul wrote about the story. Joe interviewed Fr Paul for some time about a part of his article that the story in the papers was the work of the devil, lies, and made what was in effect a withdrawal from his remarks, saying that he meant something different, when Joe put it to him that it meant Catherine and the witnesses has lied. Joe then intro'd and invited Catherine to speak. She told Fr Paul information about the home, the burial chamber, A tunnel leading from the home to it, the fact that the dead were witnessed being brought from the home along the tunnel, the local carpenters telling that they made very few coffins for the children who died there, those who were buried in the ground, making it seem that he had done no research for his article. I got the impression that Fr Paul left the interview very much stunned by what Catherine was able to tell him what was known factually about the home, and its architectural structures, that he was not aware of.

Fr Paul also made a reference that there may have been another location with children, not the one his father told him he lived at, with regard to what has been revealed by Catherine and the witnesses. It seem's Fr Paul based all in the article he wrote on what he remembers his father telling him about his time in the home.

It's the first I've heard about Fr paul and his article, and I have no link to it.

Edit. info on Wikipedia: the home was demolished in 1972; had a varied history. Built as a workhouse in 1841, used as a Bks by British in 1916 (occupants evicted), by Irish Army in 1923 (workhouse used in execution of 8 IRA men) before the nuns took it over in 1925. I can't find when the tunnel was built but there is this recent (as history goes) historical link giving data on some burials being found in 2012.... There is an O.S.I. site map links within the link below.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjhu_Cg4MTSAhWpKsAKHTrBAKUQFgg7MAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistoricgraves.com%2Fblog%2Fmiscellanea%2Farchaeology-tuam-workhouse-st-mary-s-mother-baby-home-personal-perspective&usg=AFQjCNE0ACsB3Ch38Dhr1fR0EwAWLK5cAg

looksee

There was a tunnel to the burial place? How many septic tanks have tunnels (as against pipes) leading to them?

PopePalpatine

I wonder if "Fr Paul" is a friend if either Bill Donohue or Brian McKevitt. :rolleyes:

Neyite

looksee wrote: »

There was a tunnel to the burial place? How many septic tanks have tunnels (as against pipes) leading to them?

I found this a good explanation:

http://izzykamikaze.tumblr.com/post/89770303451/vaults-under-tuambabies-site-are-part-of-sewage

frostyjacks

I get the showy outrage directed at the Church; they would probably have handled things differently with hindsight. But we can't let the laity off the hook here; they effectively disowned their own daughters. It's a bit of a cop out to say the Church forced families to send their girls into these homes. If they truly loved them they wouldn't have abandoned them.

And ironically, those screaming loudest about this are pro-abortion. The mind boggles.

Lucy8080

aloyisious wrote: »

The Tuam Home story was just discussed by Joe Duffy, Catherine Corless and a priest, Fr Paul, re an article Fr Paul wrote about the story. Joe interviewed Fr Paul for some time about a part of his article that the story in the papers was the work of the devil, lies, and made what was in effect a withdrawal from his remarks, saying that he meant something different, when Joe put it to him that it meant Catherine and the witnesses has lied. Joe then intro'd and invited Catherine to speak. She told Fr Paul information about the home, the burial chamber, A tunnel leading from the home to it, the fact that the dead were witnessed being brought from the home along the tunnel, the local carpenters telling that they made very few coffins for the children who died there, those who were buried in the ground, making it seem that he had done no research for his article. I got the impression that Fr Paul left the interview very much stunned by what Catherine was able to tell him what was known factually about the home, and its architectural structures, that he was not aware of.

Fr Paul also made a reference that there may have been another location with children, not the one his father told him he lived at, with regard to what has been revealed by Catherine and the witnesses. It seem's Fr Paul based all in the article he wrote on what he remembers his father telling him about his time in the home.

It's the first I've heard about Fr paul and his article, and I have no link to it.

Marklambert.blogspot Bon secours home tuam.

Stick the above into to google and it should be your first hit.

looksee

Neyite - Thank you for that, although I had seen it. I can really only make out the first diagram, which suggests a 9ft chamber with a 3 ft tunnel leading into it. I cannot see anyone, least of all a nun creeping along a 3ft tunnel to place a baby in there. Also the space below the outlet of the the tunnel is only about 2 ft or so, not a lot of space for effluent and if it filled up it would fill the tunnel.

It doesn't really matter to me what the arrangements are of the sewage system or the 'crypt' (apart from a general interest in buildings and how they work). What I would like to do is move the attention away from this idea of 'throwing babies into a septic tank' which doesn't really seem to describe what happened, not from any sense of defending what happened, but because it is being used as 'click-bait' away from the far more important point - the way the children were treated while they were alive, and the extraordinary mortality rate compared with the general population.

aloyisious

frostyjacks wrote: »

I get the showy outrage directed at the Church; they would probably have handled things differently with hindsight. But we can't let the laity off the hook here; they effectively disowned their own daughters. It's a bit of a cop out to say the Church forced families to send their girls into these homes. If they truly loved them they wouldn't have abandoned them.

And ironically, those screaming loudest about this are pro-abortion. The mind boggles.

Have to agree with you: it does seem rather immoral overall.

smacl

aloyisious wrote: »

Have to agree with you: it does seem rather immoral overall.

It does, but it is a morality informed by the Church to begin with, in that single mothers were demonised in Ireland for having sex outside of marriage on the basis that it was sinful in the eyes of the church. The same could be said about much of Irish moral attitudes surrounding sexuality, and to some extent still can. There does seem to be a long standing attitude in this country that it is of supreme importance to be seen to be doing the right thing even when everyone knows the right thing is as often as not the wrong thing.

Cabaal

Seriously bad timing by the government, if they had sense they should have pulled out of this opening gig given the stuff that came out on Friday.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/03/07/bon-succour/

Michael Noonan launched Bon Secours in Limerick yesterdayy. This in the wake of the Tuam bodies. The Bon Secours order own a series of private hospitals.

Maybe he was letting the board of Bon Secours know the Fine Gael government would do nothing to the order or their private profits.

Bon Secours made €2.3 million in profit last year and have over €70 million in accumulated profits as of the end of 2016.

People Before Profit have called for vigils at all Bon Secours hospitals for 6pm this Friday.

Good to know they have lots of profit, now can we get some compensation for the victims?

aloyisious

smacl wrote: »

It does, but it is a morality informed by the Church to begin with, in that single mothers were demonised in Ireland for having sex outside of marriage on the basis that it was sinful in the eyes of the church. The same could be said about much of Irish moral attitudes surrounding sexuality, and to some extent still can. There does seem to be a long standing attitude in this country that it is of supreme importance to be seen to be doing the right thing even when everyone knows the right thing is as often as not the wrong thing.

You got here before I could include our "the land of saints and scholars" reputation is taking a battering worldwide. I think I saw the story on the front page of the LA Times yesterday.

Cabaal

In other news

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/06/18/i-was-put-into-a-bag-and-told-i-was-going-into-a-bog-hole/

Last night TV3’s The People’s Debate With Vincent Browne took place in the Galway East constituency.

Many would get beaten with a rod or a stick, I was treated with nettles. Nettles put inside my trousers. I hated seeing summers coming because I knew this was going to happen again. I was put into a bag one day, I was told I was going to be put into the bog hole. That was my life story. I could go on for another hour.”

Neyite

looksee wrote: »

Neyite - Thank you for that, although I had seen it. I can really only make out the first diagram, which suggests a 9ft chamber with a 3 ft tunnel leading into it. I cannot see anyone, least of all a nun creeping along a 3ft tunnel to place a baby in there. Also the space below the outlet of the the tunnel is only about 2 ft or so, not a lot of space for effluent and if it filled up it would fill the tunnel.

It doesn't really matter to me what the arrangements are of the sewage system or the 'crypt' (apart from a general interest in buildings and how they work). What I would like to do is move the attention away from this idea of 'throwing babies into a septic tank' which doesn't really seem to describe what happened, not from any sense of defending what happened, but because it is being used as 'click-bait' away from the far more important point - the way the children were treated while they were alive, and the extraordinary mortality rate compared with the general population.

I highly doubt the nuns did set foot in a former cesspit. Even the death certificates were signed off by the doctor over the home and the housekeeper. My guess is that staff such as gardeners or other inmates placed the bodies there at the instructions of the nuns. Question is, why they did so - was it because the nuns were hiding something, or was it simply that they didn't want to waste the money or land on burial.

It is more important to shine a light on the wretched lives these children endured at the hands of the nuns I fully agree. We need to know how these homes were run, who authorised what, what income streams there were, if there was illegal acts commited. We need to know how these children and their mothers were treated, and why so many died. We need to know who inspected these homes and why they did not spot what was going on. Every home needs scrutiny.

aloyisious

Enda is giving the nation in general a scourging in the Dail on the issue. Opposition response is very blunt in regard the Bon Secour Order, laying into it's profiting, referencing the hospital and cash for adaption deals.

Ta Neyite: I had wondered about death certs for the children recorded as dead in the Home's record books. One of the home's former residents, Peter Mulryan, said within the past two days that he believes his sister, while being registered as dead by the home, may have been sold on as an adopted child to a family in the U.S.

pilly

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I wonder if "Fr Paul" is a friend if either Bill Donohue or Brian McKevitt. :rolleyes:

Apparently they have been using his article on their website, surprise surprise.

He came across as a horrible man yesterday on the radio, somewhat Trump like in his refusal to accept anything was true.

He kept saying "IF bodies were found", I was screaming at the radio, they WERE found, there's no IF.

Then he seriously asked if maybe they were talking about different places. Like it's possible there were 2 mother and baby homes in Tuam?

pilly

Cabaal wrote: »

Seriously bad timing by the government, if they had sense they should have pulled out of this opening gig given the stuff that came out on Friday.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/03/07/bon-succour/





Good to know they have lots of profit, now can we get some compensation for the victims?

Why would the minister even be there at the launch of a PRIVATE hospital?

smacl

I see there's a new uplift campaign for people who want it formally acknowledged by the church that they're no longer Catholic on the back of this.

frostyjacks

smacl wrote: »

I see there's a new uplift campaign for people who want it formally acknowledged by the church that they're no longer Catholic on the back of this.

Will they have a website for disowning one's own family if it comes to light they sent girls to these institutions? Doubt it. A bit to close to home to be as self-righteous.

challengemaster

Tuam babies scandal is 'fake news', claims the Catholic League

he president of the Catholic League has denounced the Tuam Baby scandal as 'fake news'.
Despite "significant quantities" of human remains discovered at the site of the former mother and baby home in Co Galway, US-based conservative Bill Donoghue claims there is "no evidence of a mass grave".
"It was a lie in 2014 and it is a lie in 2017," he wrote on Catholicleague.org. "The hoax is now back again, and an obliging media are running with the story as if it were true. Any objective and independent reporter would be able to report what I am about to say, but unfortunately there are too many lazy and incompetent reporters prepared to swallow the latest moonshine about the Catholic Church.

"If there was a Pulitzer for fake news, the competition would be fierce. Mass graves. Sexually assaulted women. Children stolen. It is all a lie."
Independent councillor for Tuam Billy Connelly told the Irish Independent he cannot understand how anyone could denounce the evidence already presented.

He said: "I can't see how he could make a statement like this. The evidence on what they found is pretty well solid. What's in that mass grave and talking to local people is unquestionable. That's the first time I have heard anyone come up with a conspiracy to this. The facts are there and it's very insulting."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html

Neyite

challengemaster wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html

So he's basically saying our Minister for Children, our Minister for Social Protection, our Taoiseach, the Coroner and the police force are lying? Well, he's only showing himself up there.

The phrase Fake News always reminds me of this parenting comic strip:

PopePalpatine

frostyjacks wrote: »

Will they have a website for disowning one's own family if it comes to light they sent girls to these institutions? Doubt it. A bit to close to home to be as self-righteous.

And for the umpteenth time of asking, who taught these families that their "fallen" daughters were to be sent to the Magdalene Gulags?

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

Will they have a website for disowning one's own family if it comes to light they sent girls to these institutions? Doubt it. A bit to close to home to be as self-righteous.

The children died in the care of those running the homes. Have you any evidence to suggest families were sending the pregnant women to the homes so the child would die? Or are you just engaging in deflection away from the organisations that ran the homs?

frostyjacks

Delirium wrote: »

The children died in the care of those running the homes. Have you any evidence to suggest families were sending the pregnant women to the homes so the child would die? Or are you just engaging in deflection away from the organisations that ran the homs?

The girls were abandoned by their own families. It's very selective to point the finger solely at the Church, and ignore the people who were equally complicit.

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

The girls were abandoned by their own families. It's very selective to point the finger solely at the Church, and ignore the people who were equally complicit.

I don't think you can say families were equally complicit when it was the homes who were caring for the children when they died and then disposed of the bodies in a septic tank.