kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother Karen Matthews could this happen here

please helpThank YOU · 10-03-2017 5:49am #1

kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother karen matthews could this happen in Ireland as I think Ireland is ripe for this as we all ways believe the accuser on just Hearsay evidence and that is the policy of the police /garda

10-03-2017 5:56am

It could.

But it's not exactly the worst crime ever that one might think of in the "could it possibly happen here" category. Plus...no one was falsely accused or wrongly charged in that case.

please helpThank YOU · 10-03-2017 6:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

It could.

But it's not exactly the worst crime ever that one might think of in the "could it possibly happen here" category. Plus...no one was falsely accused or wrongly charged in that case.

I watched the documentary last nite about the kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother karen matthews she fooled the whole country of England for weeks and would say we have our own version who would fool the whole of Ireland and if you seen the movie Gone Girl with Ben affleck it makes me think that Ireland must have people like this Karen matthews and Ireland is a great country for people with this mind set I can 100 per foresee this happen in Ireland

Badly Drunk Boy · 10-03-2017 6:15am

Slovakia is ripe for it, too. And Denmark.

10-03-2017 6:23am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

if you seen the movie Gone Girl with Ben affleck it makes me think that Ireland must have people like this Karen matthews...

It wasn't the first thing I thought of when I watched it tbh.

I saw the Shannon Matthews programme. Thought it was a bit lame, 2 hours of that Sidney Sheridan running around doing a "I'm a Northern lass as tough as nails, look at me trackies wherer me fookin fags...but underneath we've hearts of gold" routine.

Peregrinus · 10-03-2017 6:24am

Could somebody in Ireland organise the kidnapping of their own child?

Yes. But a Shannon Matthews-type case seems less likely here. The motivation there was to collect the rewards which, it was assumed, would be offered. (And indeed they were offered - the Sun offered £50,000.) But there's no tradition in Ireland of the newspapers offering such large rewards; therefore there isn't the same motivation to organise a kidnapping like these.

Which is not to say that a parent might not organise a kidnapping for some other motivation.

Still, what of it? In the Shannon Matthews case the child was missing and she was in danger, so a large police operation to recover her unharmed was entirely justified. (And, NB, was successful.) So I don't think acknowledging the possibility that a parent might be guilty of involvement in the kidnapping of their own child should cause us to react differently when a child is reported kidnapped or missing. It's already the case that when a child is reported missing the parents fall under suspicion; it's not as though the police have been ignoring the possibility up to now.

As for "the accuser always being believed", as already pointed out Karen Matthews didn't accuse anyone in particular; she just said her child was missing which was, in fact, correct.

freshpopcorn · 10-03-2017 6:34am

It could happen here but it could happen in almost any country!

please helpThank YOU · 10-03-2017 6:47am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Could somebody in Ireland organise the kidnapping of their own child?

Yes. But a Shannon Matthews-type case seems less likely here. The motivation there was to collect the rewards which, it was assumed, would be offered. (And indeed they were offered - the Sun offered £50,000.) But there's no tradition in Ireland of the newspapers offering such large rewards; therefore there isn't the same motivation to organise a kidnapping like these.

Which is not to say that a parent might not organise a kidnapping for some other motivation.

Still, what of it? In the Shannon Matthews case the child was missing and she was in danger, so a large police operation to recover her unharmed was entirely justified. (And, NB, was successful.) So I don't think acknowledging the possibility that a parent might be guilty of involvement in the kidnapping of their own child should cause us to react differently when a child is reported kidnapped or missing. It's already the case that when a child is reported missing the parents fall under suspicion; it's not as though the police have been ignoring the possibility up to now.

As for "the accuser always being believed", as already pointed out Karen Matthews didn't accuse anyone in particular; she just said her child was missing which was, in fact, correct.

Karen Matthews fooled most of England she pretended to be the victim when she was the real perpetrator in doing so she fooled the whole country of England so could this happen here in Ireland

longshanks · 10-03-2017 6:51am

A full stop or two, maybe a comma.

Your Face · 10-03-2017 7:09am

Links can help those who don't know what the balls you're on about.

Peregrinus · 10-03-2017 7:34am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Karen Matthews fooled most of England she pretended to be the victim when she was the real perpetrator in doing so she fooled the whole country of England so could this happen here in Ireland

Could Ireland be fooled? Of course we could. This is a country which has repeatedly elected Fianna Fáil into power; if we can be fooled in that we can certainly be fooled in this. For the reasons already given I don't think this particular foolery is very likely to be perpetrated on us, but we have no magical immunity to being fooled.

But, as others have pointed out, any country can be fooled. Every time somebody commits a crime and gets away without detection the community is fooled. That happens everywhere, quite commonly. Why would Ireland be any different?

andekwarhola · 10-03-2017 7:54am

Could user names like that happen here too?

Dravokivich · 10-03-2017 8:15am

Your Face wrote: »

Links can help those who don't know what the balls you're on about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Shannon_Matthews

There ya go chum.

Samaris · 10-03-2017 8:36am

Don't see why Ireland is being singled out. This case didn't happen here, as was made clear, it happened in the UK. Second one they've had, didn't they have that missing child that turned out to be being hidden in the attic or something equally silly?

The whole thing about "it is Garda policy to always believe the story brought to them based on hearsay" (slightly paraphrased) is nonsense, but it is certainly their policy to take missing child cases seriously and it is remarkable that anyone would have an issue with that. There are far more cases of missing children that are absolutely legit than are cases of deliberate fraud for odd psychological reasons. I'll take a couple of hoaxes over the risk of a child actually in danger being ignored. And something that foolish woman has done is put herself on the record as unreliable and if something, god forbid, -was- to happen to the child, it might be hard for her to get help in time.

So yeah, ofc it could happen here. So what? Actual missing children can and do happen here too.

Peregrinus · 10-03-2017 8:48am

I don't think the OP is suggesting that the mother in the Matthews case should have been ignored. In that case, remember, the child was kidnapped, and she was held for a period, and she was in grave danger, so whatever lesson you take away from the Matthews case it absolutely is not to doubt or ignore reports by parents that their children are missing.

When children go missing, one possibility the guards will always have in mind is "could one or both parents, or another family member, be responsible?". All too often this is the case; most children who are injured are injured by people who are known to them, often people living in or regularly visiting the child's house, and the guards are very aware of this. Parents do not avert or avoid this suspicion by being the one to report that the child is missing, by making tearful public pleas for the return of the child, etc.

There's no evidence in the Matthews case, so far as I am aware, to suggest that the police uncritically accepted the mother's version of events. But the public generally accepted it, particularly the immediate neighbourhood, and they rallied round in large numbers to organise searches, raise awareness, etc. And they (understandably) felt horrified, abused, exploited and angry when the truth came out.

Can we do anything to stop the public accepting parents' good faith when those parents report their children as missing? I don't see why we would want to. The priority here is the welfare of the child; the more people who are concerned about the child, the more people who are raising awareness of the fact that the child is missing, the more people who are looking for the child, the greater the chance that the child will be found. We wouldn't want to do anything to stop that.

Conall Cernach · 10-03-2017 9:13am

Although the public were, by and large, fooled in the Shannon Matthews case the police weren't fooled for too long. They suspected, almost from the start, that the mother staged the whole thing. I remember not long after it came out that it was revealed that she was acting strangely from the start. On one occasion when they called to see her she hid behind the door and jumped out to tickle the officer. She was a real half wit and I don't think she instigated the fake kidnapping. Her boyfriend and his uncle seemed like scumbags and I wouldn't be surprised if they dreamed it up for other reasons than financial ones.

10-03-2017 12:46pm

Conall Cernach wrote: »

On one occasion when they called to see her she hid behind the door and jumped out to tickle the officer...

I feel bad...but I laughed...

pilly · 10-03-2017 12:54pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother karen matthews could this happen in Ireland as I think Ireland is ripe for this as we all ways believe the accuser on just Hearsay evidence and that is the policy of the police /garda

I'd like to understand what your point is OP.

Are you saying the police/garda shouldn't believe someone when they say a child is missing?

El Weirdo · 10-03-2017 2:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel bad...but I laughed...

I didn't realise you were a copper, Conor.

Birneybau · 10-03-2017 2:05pm

Christ! Punctuation, please!

10-03-2017 2:12pm

Conall Cernach wrote: »

the mother ... was a real half wit and I don't think she instigated the fake kidnapping. Her boyfriend and his uncle seemed like scumbags and I wouldn't be surprised if they dreamed it up for other reasons than financial ones.

When she was released from prison, they didn't give her a new identity as they were concerned that she "would jeopardise it and her safety by failing to keep it a secret" ... in other words, too stupid to hide.

mynamejeff · 10-03-2017 2:16pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother karen matthews could this happen in Ireland as I think Ireland is ripe for this as we all ways believe the accuser on just Hearsay evidence and that is the policy of the police /garda

Its hard to make sense of your post but the fact that the child was found safe and well and that the criminals were caught would suggest that they never believed the lies.

Any one who has even a slight connection with the legal world will know that hearsay evidence is more or less used only to confirm or disprove other more reliable evidence.

_Whimsical_ · 10-03-2017 2:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasn't the first thing I thought of when I watched it tbh.

I saw the Shannon Matthews programme. Thought it was a bit lame, 2 hours of that Sidney Sheridan running around doing a "I'm a Northern lass as tough as nails, look at me trackies wherer me fookin fags...but underneath we've hearts of gold" routine.

I actually thought the program had illustrated quite well just how incapable and immature Karen Matthews was as a person. She was portrayed as much more grossly inept than evil and conniving, a victim of a self-perpetuating cycle of dependence on inappropriate relationships because she couldn't care for her kids leading her to have more kids and go in desperate search of more men.

There are definitely some of those horribly inadequate parents out there, while there are and they receive no intervention children like Shannon Matthew's will be at risk of all sorts of things happening to them, like you say, a fake kidnapping being far from the worst possibility. If anything Shannon was plucked out of there before much worse became of her.

_Whimsical_ · 10-03-2017 2:44pm

Conall Cernach wrote: »

She was a real half wit and I don't think she instigated the fake kidnapping. Her boyfriend and his uncle seemed like scumbags and I wouldn't be surprised if they dreamed it up for other reasons than financial ones.

In the tv drama made about it they mentioned she'd gone to a wedding where the boyfriends uncle was a few weeks before the kidnapping and had been flirting with him and sitting on his knee.

She also made a confession afterwards that she had wanted to leave her boyfriend (who was arrested for having child porn on his pc) and had planned to go to live in the uncles house. She had told Shannon to go to that house straight after school. Then she'd planned to pack up and take the other kids when her boyfriend left for the day. However he didn't leave and she was afraid of what he'd do if he found out she was leaving so when Shannon didnt come home that night instead of telling him the truth she rang the police and reported her missing at his instigation.

Was that true?
Who knows?

She was also portrayed as a liar of very low intelligence but that story was the first she told police and sort of fit with her history of going to man to man accumulating children and problems as she did.

diomed · 10-03-2017 3:54pm

Only if they move here.

retro:electro · 10-03-2017 4:30pm

I watched the show too. Bad and all as the case was, sometimes I had to ask myself was I watching a black comedy when watching the show- it was that absurd.

Police officer is interviewing Shannon's mother at one stage about the abduction, mother is clearly upset and trying to recall the lead up to her going missing, the officer's phone starts ringing with the ringtone Brown eyed girl, Shannon's mother hops up off her chair and dancing around the kitchen to the ringtone.

Before press conference the mother grabs a random child's teddy to hold as she's appealing to the public, she feels this will gain sympathy from viewers "like what Maddie's mum 'ad"

After she's charged with the abduction, she goes to a vending machine, gets a packet of monster munch, sits down and eats them before licking all her fingers one by one.

I'm led to believe these things actually happened too and weren't constructed for drama. Nowt as queer as folk

jameorahiely · 10-03-2017 4:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

When she was released from prison, they didn't give her a new identity as they were concerned that she "would jeopardise it and her safety by failing to keep it a secret" ... in other words, too stupid to hide.

She changed her name to Kate, after her favourite actress Winslet. Not after her favourite worst parent.

10-03-2017 4:37pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I actually thought the program had illustrated quite well just how incapable and immature Karen Matthews was as a person. She was portrayed as much more grossly inept than evil and conniving, a victim of a self-perpetuating cycle of dependence on inappropriate relationships because she couldn't care for her kids leading her to have more kids and go in desperate search of more men.

I agree, Sidney Sheridan dominated the programme but her character was incredibly annoying and over the top, the portrayal of Matthews herself was far better and almost sympathetic, a truly desperate woman who may not have realised the full horrors of her get rich quick scheme. The drugging of the child is the bit I have most difficulty with, if they had scammed the Sun and the media I'd have given her a medal.

please helpThank YOU · 10-03-2017 8:05pm

diomed wrote: »

Only if they move here.

that is scary thought .I have Come across people like karen Matthews who tell a lot of very dangerous rumors/falsehoods about people she even convinced a mob out side a innocent families house this house was burned down she convinced the mob and guess what her nickname was in the area Karen Matthews she all so a very long history of making false report to the police /garda did she get done for wasting police /garda time no and if other with the same mind set see this and you can play the victim we have a great chance of the likes of Shannon Matthews happen here in Ireland.

10-03-2017 8:08pm

Have you ever heard of punctuation?

10-03-2017 8:19pm

What was the name of the programme, anyone? I'd like to catch it. I remember the case very vividly, hopefully it's on catch up somewhere.

I think what the OP is trying to say (without saying it) is that you shouldn't automatically believe some women who claim a child is in danger, and that they are probably the danger themselves.

I'd rather act first and assign blame later when a childs safety is in jeopardy.

retro:electro · 10-03-2017 8:50pm

Candie wrote: »

What was the name of the programme, anyone? I'd like to catch it. I remember the case very vividly, hopefully it's on catch up somewhere.

I think what the OP is trying to say (without saying it) is that you shouldn't automatically believe some women who claim a child is in danger, and that they are probably the danger themselves.

I'd rather act first and assign blame later when a childs safety is in jeopardy.

The Moorside

10-03-2017 8:51pm

Candie wrote: »

What was the name of the programme, anyone? I'd like to catch it. I remember the case very vividly, hopefully it's on catch up somewhere.

The Moorside.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08dxvc0

Saw the first episode, didn't bother with the second.

pilly · 15-03-2017 12:20pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

that is scary thought .I have Come across people like karen Matthews who tell a lot of very dangerous rumors/falsehoods about people she even convinced a mob out side a innocent families house this house was burned down she convinced the mob and guess what her nickname was in the area Karen Matthews she all so a very long history of making false report to the police /garda did she get done for wasting police /garda time no and if other with the same mind set see this and you can play the victim we have a great chance of the likes of Shannon Matthews happen here in Ireland.

You know a lot of dodgy people OP!

osarusan · 15-03-2017 12:45pm

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Slovakia is ripe for it, too. And Denmark.

Definitely.

Not Malta though.

please helpThank YOU · 15-03-2017 6:59pm

pilly wrote: »

You know a lot of dodgy people OP!

There is lot of people with the same mind set of the Gimp Karen Matthews In Ireland Male /Female playing the victim card and it works so I think 100 per cent that Ireland will have a case like Karen Matthews in Time. I do Know off a lot dodge people but I do not mix with them that is the difference and as I dont live in bubble like a lot of people.

pilly · 24-03-2017 10:26am

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

There is lot of people with the same mind set of the Gimp Karen Matthews In Ireland Male /Female playing the victim card and it works so I think 100 per cent that Ireland will have a case like Karen Matthews in Time. I do Know off a lot dodge people but I do not mix with them that is the difference and as I dont live in bubble like a lot of people.

Never said that you mixed with them but I think your focus is too much on the bad in our society.

You'll wreck your head if you go around wondering what situations could occur in Ireland in the future.

mynamejeff · 24-03-2017 11:38am

Candie wrote: »

What was the name of the programme, anyone? I'd like to catch it. I remember the case very vividly, hopefully it's on catch up somewhere.

I think what the OP is trying to say (without saying it) is that you shouldn't automatically believe some women who claim a child is in danger, and that they are probably the danger themselves.

I'd rather act first and assign blame later when a childs safety is in jeopardy.

didnt work out so well in this case ,

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/girl-taken-from-dublin-family-over-identity-concerns-1.1569292

kidnapping of shannon matthews by her mother Karen Matthews could this happen here

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