"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Zebra3 · 09-03-2017 09:24AM

FA Hayek wrote: »

No, its not. The Church did not go around kidnapping people. Family members freely put these women into these places. Society shunned pregnant women who were not married. This was the mindset in Europe for centuries.

The easy answer of course is to blame an 'other'. Blame the church or the state. Its easy of course. Yet, where did these pregnant women end up before the mother and baby homes? Were they cared for by the state? Nope, they ended up in workhouses with drunks, criminals, lunatics and the destitute. Like it or not, there was a need for them. Its unfortunate but too often we use the norms of society today in judge the past. The hard truth is that people have grandfathers, grand uncles, grand mothers who were more then happy to shove their sisters or daughters into these homes. That is the hard truth that people are not ready to face up to. The truth is too much for some, so they blame a static old organisation.

I would be with Diarmaid Ferritier on this, we should establish the facts before we do what Ireland does best, emotional sadomasochistic hyperventilating on how Ireland was like the 3rd Reich or Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Establish the facts first, then we can see the true picture.

If they didn't kidnap them, why did they have the guards hunt down escapees?

Roger_007 · 09-03-2017 09:40AM

FA Hayek wrote: »

No, its not. The Church did not go around kidnapping people. Family members freely put these women into these places. Society shunned pregnant women who were not married. This was the mindset in Europe for centuries.

The easy answer of course is to blame an 'other'. Blame the church or the state. Its easy of course. Yet, where did these pregnant women end up before the mother and baby homes? Were they cared for by the state? Nope, they ended up in workhouses with drunks, criminals, lunatics and the destitute. Like it or not, there was a need for them. Its unfortunate but too often we use the norms of society today in judge the past. The hard truth is that people have grandfathers, grand uncles, grand mothers who were more then happy to shove their sisters or daughters into these homes. That is the hard truth that people are not ready to face up to. The truth is too much for some, so they blame a static old organisation.

I would be with Diarmaid Ferritier on this, we should establish the facts before we do what Ireland does best, emotional sadomasochistic hyperventilating on how Ireland was like the 3rd Reich or Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Establish the facts first, then we can see the true picture.

This is the first rational and reasoned comment I have read on this whole sad affair. It's easy now to blame the state and the church whan the uncomfortable truth is that it was the 'plain people of Ireland' who allowed and approved of the treatment of unmarried mothers.
It's always dangerous to generalise, but If there is anything that characterises the people of Ireland in the 20th century, it was complete moral cowardice.
Everyone is now rushing to condemn 'those responsible', but they would do well to remember that it is their own forefathers, (and foremothers), that they are condemning.

Roger_007 · 09-03-2017 09:42AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

If they didn't kidnap them, why did they have the guards hunt down escapees?

Do you have any documented cases of where that happened?

FA Hayek · 09-03-2017 09:51AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

Where were the communist death camps in Ireland?

They never took power thank the Lord, so there are none, but the planet is littered with them, with the bones of tens of millions buried into the ground.

FA Hayek · 09-03-2017 09:53AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

If they didn't kidnap them, why did they have the guards hunt down escapees?

So, the nuns did kidnap these women LOL. Fake news alert folks.

LOL, did they have butterfly catchers as well?

laoch na mona · 09-03-2017 10:03AM

FA Hayek wrote: »

They never took power thank the Lord, so there are none, but the planet is littered with them, with the bones of tens of millions buried into the ground.

and capitalists never killed anyone :rolleyes:

The point is the Irish left were a lonely voice challenging the rotten system of church-state relations and the catholic hegemonic control of society which prevailed here for far to long (and still does to a degree)

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 10:12AM

laoch na mona wrote:

The point is the Irish left were a lonely voice challenging the rotten system of church-state relations and the catholic hegemonic control of society which prevailed here for far to long (and still does to a degree)

It's amazing the way posters here seek to ignore the control the RCC had in nearly every aspect of civil society.

laoch na mona · 09-03-2017 10:19AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

It's amazing the way posters here seek to ignore the control the RCC had in nearly every aspect of civil society.

I think some genuinely believe that free will could overcome a hegemony created through control of education and welfare, not to mention the political strength of the church.

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 10:20AM

laoch na mona wrote:

I think some genuinely believe that free will could overcome a hegemony created through control of education and welfare, not to mention the political strength of the church.

No i think they wish to deflect and share the blame.

sabat · 09-03-2017 10:20AM

The comments here about Irish missionaries abroad are way out of line; in fact some posters are just exposing themselves as nasty, vindictive and, above all, ignorant. Watch this documentary about your "evil priests and nuns":

http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1378-radharc/355631-night-flight-to-uli/

To this day you can go to some of the worst hellholes on earth and the only people you'll find serving forgotten oppressed people are priests and nuns, not bible-bashers or saving souls, but helping their fellow human beings because that's their calling.

YourSuperior · 09-03-2017 10:24AM

valoren wrote: »

A modern analogy. They do say that Football is a religion.

The 2022 World Cup in Qatar is currently a well reported disaster.

Corruption in FIFA was always suspect. It has been proven to be the case.
We read weasel words from press releases promising reform, inquiries and sanctions.
It is generally believed that both the 2018 and 2022 World Cup's were won through a combination of bribery and said corruption, particularly Qatar, a country with no footballing heritage whatsoever.

We have seen and read reports about squalid camps where migrant workers work.
They are effectively imprisoned by unscrupulous, bullying contractors. Effectively, modern day slavery.
People are dying. The 'kafala' labour system allows it.
They are dying to allow the building of Football cathedrals to host a quadrennial vanity project for FIFA's multi-millionaires and it's billionaire sponsors, who still remain loyal despite corruption charges from the United States.

Now construction fatalities are a fact of life. No denying that. And staging sporting events are major undertakings. 60 people died preparing for the Sochi Winter Olympics. 10 for Brazil 2014. South Africa 2010? Two. London 2012? One.

Qatar 2022 - 1,200 fatalities. And there is still 5 years to go until it get's turned into Football's Disneyland.

Put's it in perspective when you look at mortality rates from the likes of Bessboro against the mortality rates nationally and internationally at the time.

We can torment ourselves, pontificate about all of this.
But it will go ahead no matter what.
Through the bribery, the corruption, the
indifference of those who follow soccer as a religion.
FIFA have been on record saying there are 'challenges' and 'ongoing processes' in face of the fatalities.

We know it's happening but ask yourself this; what can you really do about it?
Like the mothers and babies, the workers are out of sight.
They are nothing. And treated as such. They are essentially fodder for a greater goal.
The accrual of greater wealth, more influence, more power. Nothing more.

It's happening now and it's going to happen. Qatar will get it's World Cup.
Exposes will happen in time, reports will increase about human rights abuses, more fatalities.
But billions of us will still watch tepid, boring matches in air conditioned football cathedrals.

Good post. That's just the goddamn truth but many don't want to know about it and have a good time. If someone keeps talking like that they're often seen to be on a downer and told to cheer up. As long as the deaths are out of sight--out of mind. The marketing hype drowns everything out. This planet is a nightmare.

FA Hayek · 09-03-2017 10:48AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

and capitalists never killed anyone :rolleyes:

The point is the Irish left were a lonely voice challenging the rotten system of church-state relations and the catholic hegemonic control of society which prevailed here for far to long (and still does to a degree)

Ah, the straw man tactic. Capitalists didn't starve tens of millions of people in the Ukraine or China for example, so you are correct.

Ireland was not a theocracy. This is a fact.

FA Hayek · 09-03-2017 10:52AM

laoch na mona wrote: »

I think some genuinely believe that free will could overcome a hegemony created through control of education and welfare, not to mention the political strength of the church.

As apposed to the state controlling education and welfare.

valoren · 09-03-2017 10:55AM

YourSuperior wrote: »

Good post. That's just the goddamn truth but many don't want to know about it and have a good time. If someone keeps talking like that they're often seen to be on a downer and told to cheer up. As long as the deaths are out of sight--out of mind. The hype marketing hype drowns everything out. This planet is a nightmare.

The cold hard statistics are the smoking gun.

It takes the death of a british worker in Doha to arouse interest in the ongoing problems in Qatar. In effect, the life of british worker mattered, the thousands of migrant workers who have died are inconsequential. That is the message.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38689250

The infant mortality rate was unusually higher than the national average in these M&B homes which espoused care and treatment. The government's of the time put their faith in these homes to deal with the problem of 'fallen' women. They paid these homes to provide a duty of care. But the statistics show the reality.

e.g. an official investigation into deaths in Bessborough carried out by the Cork County medical officer in 1943 confirmed an infant mortality rate of 68%

That is 68 out of every 100 babies dying. Or 680 out of every 1,000 on average.

And it is not like they did not have the finances available.

It is that which drives people's anger. The women and the infants were seen as nothing more than sub-human. And the got the bare minimum of treatment and care. They were against the ideology of a sky wizard whose word was (and still is) insanely taken as fact.

That which drives the headlines, fosters such strong anger is that the babies were disposed of (buried would be too respectful a word) in such a callous manner such as Tuam is the chilling coup de grace, the ultimate insult from the arrogant hyprocrisy of those who continue to pretend to be christian.

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 10:56AM

FA Hayek wrote:

As apposed to the state controlling education and welfare.

When a state excerts full control of education it is normally secular in ethos, as for welfare? Define please?

Flam1n1us · 09-03-2017 10:59AM

Does anyone know if the babies in tuam were baptised or not? Afaik its not possible to be buried by RCC if not baptised. If the babies were not baptised, maybe thats why they were treated so callously. if not baptised then why not as it was RCC home run by nuns. If they were baptised then the local church or diocese should have information - can state compel church to release records? Church def has knowledge of what happened..souls for jesus etc...the whole situation makes me angry & ashamed to be irish

laoch na mona · 09-03-2017 11:00AM

FA Hayek wrote: »

As apposed to the state controlling education and welfare.

one of the main reasons the state exists is to provide basic services for the people who live within it's borders

laoch na mona · 09-03-2017 11:01AM

Dail debate on the mother and baby homes are on now. worth listening to

AudreyHepburn · 09-03-2017 11:02AM

I wish I could say I am surprised by this but I'm not. Horrified yes but not surprised.

And the saddest part is that most of those who perpetrated these act are likely to no longer around or would be considered to be in no fit state to face justice.

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 11:03AM

Flam1n1us wrote:

Does anyone know if the babies in tuam were baptised or not? Afaik its not possible to be buried by RCC if not baptised. If the babies were not baptised, maybe thats why they were treated so callously. if not baptised then why not as it was RCC home run by nuns. If they were baptised then the local church or diocese should have information - can state compel church to release records? Church def has knowledge of what happened..souls for jesus etc...the whole situation makes me angry & ashamed to be irish

Some of the deceased children were toddlers. The oldest I believe was 3 years old. Quite unusual not to have a 3 years old baptised. No withstanding baptism basic human decency would dictate your treat the remains with some dignity. A septic tank is not a dignified burial place.

jobbridge4life · 09-03-2017 11:11AM

Samaris wrote: »

On the note of "well, all of society is to blame", yes it is, but that's a bit of a cop-out answer, isn't it? Ah well sure everyone is to blame, so why focus on the Church.

No. Decidedly no. To focus the blame almost entirely on the Church to the point of excluding the role played by wider society would be the cop-out answer in my opinion. It is the same cop-out we use to excuse countless failings in society. 'Oh its not us, its the monsters' 'we're not to blame, we are fine it is just a small group of really bad people'

Only a fulsome account of and proper reckoning with the reality of that time will suffice.

Samaris wrote: »

What does that say about society -today-, when the injustices of yesterday, pointed at specific orders and, if allowed, specific people within those orders, is ignored because the nebulous mass of "society" at the time had a seriously rotten streak. These people treated their children badly. Some of them cast out pregnant daughters who died of exposure, some of them cloistered them away for the rest of their lives. Some did neither, proving it was possible (if difficult) to stand against it. However, it was this specific order and perhaps nuns that still live today that took in these women, humiliated and bullied them and let their children die of illnesses that should not have killed them.

What exactly does it say about society today if we cover this up and let it fade because, sure, in the future others will judge us for not caring about iphones! Or because everyone who mentions it has got to know that there can be no punishment for "society". Besides, few to anyone has denied that society played a large part in allowing the opportunity (even inevitability) for abuse to arise.

The concentration camps business is actually a relevant comparison. As things stood in -German- society at the time, this was what was normal. Some didn't agree, some stood against it, it's true that concentration camps hadn't been part of their society forever. It was more blatant than in Ireland and both easier to see it was wrong and harder to challenge. But mostly it was accepted, with disapproval silent from most and a lurking fear that rocking the boat could see oneself or one's family punished. Therefore, any surviving Nazis should not be punished because sure, it was all of society involved. If the people in there lost their lives, were brutally mistreated, well, that's very sad, but it was all of society's fault so why blame the Nazis?

Because it is guaranteed I will have to defend this, no, I am not calling the Catholic Church Nazis. I am pointing out that in both cases, "society" colluded or tried not to notice with brave and notable exceptions with the courage to stand both against society's inertia and the order involved*, but in both cases, it was the people actually with the charge of these victims in their grasp that maltreated them, and who have the specific deaths on their hands, through their specific treatment of them.

*And even of them, many only stood up when it was their own blood relatives on the line, rather than because it was an evil at the heart of either society.

Again I don't accept for one second that trying to fully understand and place this abuse in context, and to examine the role played in the abuse by wider society in anyway obfuscates from the guilt that lies upon the Church is 'covering up' or allowing anything to fade. A man convicted of child abuse is not made less guilty for his crimes because another man was convicted of supplying the child, or taking payment for the child. Justice is not a zero sum game in this regard.

Those individuals with direct connections to the abuse, perpetrators, facilitators, who are alive should face the full rigour of the law of course. Society too must face up to its role. These are not competing objectives, they are ancillary to one another.

09-03-2017 11:19AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Were the other players in the home? I realise you are seeking to spread the blame.

Actually - I'm seeking to find a way to ensure similar doesn't happen to other groups...

JupiterKid wrote: »

What are the odds that the atrocities and abuses that went on in Ireland 50/60/70 years ago are still going on in 3rd world countries with active Catholic missionaries today?

I don't know. Care to provide a link?

We know abuses of all kind are happening in 3rd World Countries.

Are we willing to do anything about it?
Ask our TDs to try to have diplomatic pressure put on these Countries? Ask questions about how Foreign aid is spent?

Again: The greatest honour we can pay these women and their babies is to try to stop abuse happening to some other group.

But will we? Will we, hell! It's far more productive to come on Boards and rant about how the perpetrators in this case should be punished (They should - any notion of justice demands it!) - but actually try something constructive?

Not so many takers there, I'm afraid....

Samaris wrote: »

On the note of "well, all of society is to blame", yes it is, but that's a bit of a cop-out answer, isn't it? Ah well sure everyone is to blame, so why focus on the Church. What does that say about society -today-, when the injustices of yesterday, pointed at specific orders and, if allowed, specific people within those orders, is ignored because the nebulous mass of "society" at the time had a seriously rotten streak.

No. It's not a cop-out.

It would be a cop out if someone said no-one was guilty of anything, or no-one found to have been guilty of wrong-doing should be punished, because - society.

Of course those guilty of abuse should be punished. No question.

But, should we leave it at that, while professing platitudes of "Never again" - or should we say "What caused this, and how can we make sure no group can ever be abused or taken advantage of in our Society into the future.

My vote is for the constructive option....

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 11:28AM

Deleted User wrote:

Actually - I'm seeking to find a way to ensure similar doesn't happen to other groups...

Easy charge those who engaged in abuse and drag them to court, bankrupt the religious orders in the form of fines and compensation. It'll send a message to any other group who think it's appropriate to act the way the church did.

09-03-2017 11:40AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Easy charge those who engaged in abuse and drag them to court, bankrupt the religious orders in the form of fines and compensation. It'll send a message to any other group who think it's appropriate to act the way the church did.

It will?

Grace. Mary Boyle. Maurice McCabe + all the victims whose complaint was never (allegedly)investigated. Anglo. Bank bailout.
Bank overcharging. Tracker Mortgages.

Most of those in the last 10 years.

But, society has changed. We're all very moral citizens nowadays.

We don't complain about the cost of "welfare" any more - or do we?
And what effect has that had on carers nowadays? Or the disabled?

There's no need to rock the boat. Find one example, apply appropriate punishment, and all potential for future abuse instantly goes away?

Unfortunately - it doesn't!

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 11:44AM

Deleted User wrote:

Grace. Mary Boyle. Maurice McCabe + all the victims whose complaint was never (allegedly)investigated. Anglo. Bank bailout. Bank overcharging. Tracker Mortgages.

Everything you have mentioned has recently come to light or is ongoing, nice try though.

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 11:47AM

Deleted User wrote:

There's no need to rock the boat. Find one example, apply appropriate punishment, and all potential for future abuse instantly goes away?

No never said that but if future abusers were aware of real consequences for themselves and any organisation they are part of it may give them pause for thought.

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 11:55AM

I'm 45, our family dog died back in 2009. I with my sons who were inconsolable buried her in a spot of our garden that she loved. I took her name off her kennel and made it the plague above her grave. I also add that I have a septic tank on my garden, never occurred to me to place her body in it. I wouldn't be able to look at my sons if I had done something as vile as that. I'm amazed the religious orders were able to soothe their conscience in how they disposed of those children in Tuam. I guess as someone with no strong religious beliefs I have a different respect for life and death.

laoch na mona · 09-03-2017 12:00PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Easy charge those who engaged in abuse and drag them to court, bankrupt the religious orders in the form of fines and compensation. It'll send a message to any other group who think it's appropriate to act the way the church did.

that lets the state off. Church and state were hand in glove, the church is history but the state doesn't appear to have changed much

09-03-2017 12:09PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Everything you have mentioned has recently come to light or is ongoing, nice try though.

So you assume that justice will be served because there are ongoing enquiries?

How many people have actually been held accountable as a result of enquiries in the past?

But, but, this time it will be different?
Only if we make it different - and by concentrating on the past, but not learning the lessons - that's never going to happen....

nhunter100 wrote: »

No never said that but if future abusers were aware of real consequences for themselves and any organisation they are part of it may give them pause for thought.

See above....

The "Institutions" are still unaccountable.

Throw the people an enquiry as a sap - redact half the contents - make the report (if published), so long that most people won't read it - and place it on a shelf.

Mission accomplished, status quo continues.....

nhunter100 · 09-03-2017 12:23PM

Deleted User wrote:

So you assume that justice will be served because there are ongoing enquiries?

Since a conclusion hasn't been reached I can't answer that. Best not to make assumptions. People assumed the clergy were decent and righteous, we know how that played out.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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