"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

smurgen · 06-03-2017 11:22AM

Graces7 wrote: »

It is also the organisation that skilfully set up the health system and the educational system which have failed sadly since their demise.

They took Ireland from hedge schools to education for all.
It was a truly wonderful achievement and I mean that.

And look at eg the Scout movement and child abuse.

Not a black and white situation.

Unbelieveable twisted way of looking at things.this is the church followers revisionist mindset at work.education and hosiptals ran=church done good,church to receive praise.scandal of child abuse uncovered=societies fault,state to be blamed and pay compensation.why should the state compensated the survivors of abuse instead of the church and religious orders?

Lollipops23 · 06-03-2017 11:24AM

archer22 wrote: »

Also the Church controlled Southern Ireland until the 1990s until their power was finally broken when people simply stopped supporting and facilitating them.
Same as they could have done at any stage over the previous 1500 years.

In the 1980s and 90s several things happened: more people were educated (education is the thorn in the RCC's side, as it encourages independent thought), people were healthier and not dying of stuff like measles and childbirth, meaning they were in a fit state to ask questions and not depending on the church to take care of them, and the media started to actually COVER the scandals that were happening.

My mother was in her 20s during the 80s and always maintains that something in the national psyche broke after Anne Lovett in 84. From then on people began to ask questions, and had conversations that never would have taken place beforehand.

Lollipops23 · 06-03-2017 11:27AM

jimgoose wrote: »

Bloody Hell! This is starting to put me in mind of Auschwitz or Dachau in 1945! :eek:

I don't think anyone is suggesting these babies were outright murdered (although I'm positive harsh treatment and downright neglect contributed in a lot of cases).

But it's an offence to deny a proper burial, so there's still plenty of illegality involved.

And I hope they get the ones who are alive on that charge.

gctest50 · 06-03-2017 11:28AM

jimgoose wrote: »

Bloody Hell! This is starting to put me in mind of Auschwitz or Dachau in 1945! :eek:

more like the dying rooms :

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 11:30AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My experience or primary school here varied depending on the school and the individual teacher too. A lot depends on who is at the top of the classroom.

Typically day in second level:
09:00 prayer.
10:30 and 13:00 Before "little break" and lunch some kind of prayer about blessing the hands that made the food.
14:30/15:00 - Our father (depending on how religious the teacher was)

There was a religious statue in a perpex case in every classroom corner and a cross over the blackboard.

Some teachers, notably a maths and Irish one who was a bit extreme used to start every single class with standing up, bless yourself and a prayer.

In primary school we had compulsory mass every so often.

Most of 1st class and 6th class was spent on religion. I'd say at least 60% of the day during some periods or the year.

We also had the "bells of the angulus" hymn played every day at 1pm over the intercom.

Nuns used to appear selling "miraculous medals" rather a lot and kids used to buy them. What exactly the purpose of selling small children bits of swallowable metal was, I do not know.

Then we had days where the parish priest would come in at random for a chat starting out his visit with "Bail o dhia ort" and a lot of standing up and blessing ourselves.

Then we had singing - almost entirely hymns. I don't remember singing any non religious song at school actually. The one that stood out was the weird one entitled : "Suffer little children" which our teacher obviously didn't explain as I assumed it was about dying children.

Then we had endless stuff for Christmas, Lent, Advent and Easter and St Bridgits Day (making crosses), St Patrick's Day etc. In fact she did a "Saint of the Week" where she would profile a particular saint.

Then in 5th and 6th class - we had a priest came in and we would read the Bible and do Catechism in a sort of interactive "modern" way where you were supposed to take a chunk of text and explain it in a presentation.

The whole experience, while often being a bit Father Ted rather than Sister Bridget of the Magdalene Sisters, it was absolutely immersed in religiosity.

The funniest one was "the blessing of the throats" this tiny little old nun with two candles would turn up and we would all line up and she would place them crossed over at either side of your Adams apple and bless it to ward off colds... Modern medicine at its most scientific!!

I just remember bursting out laughing when she said "that's a fine big strapping neck ya have there. We'll give it an extra blessing so you'll be good for the football"

Irish school is secular in the same way McDonald's is health food.

Not to go way OT but, you can easily see why as a nation we are a bit brainwashed...

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 11:32AM

osarusan wrote: »

I agree with all this, and have said many times that the church and the state should be uncoupled in every aspect.

But I think we can talk about that without exaggerating about 90%+ of primary and secondary school children being spoonfed religion 6 hours a day. That simply isn't true.

And I think we can talk the horrific situation in Tuam and other disgraceful behaviour by the church without needing to exaggerate their current influence.

Amen to this.

And had the orders not been here? What educational system? They did a wonderful job which makes this all the more heartbreaking .

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 11:43AM

neonsofa wrote: »

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. I understand what you mean now, I think. And I understand that celibacy is moreso the vow to dedicate your life to the cause rather than a family/partner etc. and it is not simply just a vow to abstain from having sex. But surely you can also understand that even with those lovely intentions to dedicate your life to the cause, if you choose/are told to be celibate, there is a suppression of sexual urges if/when they do arise? No matter how dedicated one is, it is a natural urge, an urge instilled in us by God himself (according to the Catholic teaching), and what are they to do when this urge arises, if they are not suppressing it?

God also gives celibate vocations; be very sure of that. This is a reality that you chose to omit and where He gives that He gives the way of it.

You are of a different generation .. as are many here. I understand that

And we all have "urges"that we choose not to "express" daily?

Diverting that energy is easy enough. It really is.Just not fashionable any more in this age. Modern psychology !!!!

Like being on a diet!!! Eating is also a natural urge. Or do you see refusing chocolate as suppression!!!

NB I do realise I speak from a female point of view of course.

But surely we are above thinking that we cannot choose how we live? Back to the cave man?

With priests though? Same that family and raising kids takes a huge amount or time and energy. The divorce rate among Anglican clergy is high but they also value celibate clergy. Just do not enforce it.

Some of the holiest and purest women I know and knew ( lost a dear Poor Clare last year ) were celibate nuns.

And there are many such.

Just a huge shame of this situation now that all will be blackened

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 11:43AM

Without the orders the state would have just done exactly what they did anyway : fully funded education.

The orders effectively managed state funded schools.

The state pays for the teachers, pays for the upkeep and somehow the end users are supposed to be beholden to what is basically an outsourcing service employed by the state to provide a state services we all fund through our taxes.

Primary education here has been a state services since before the foundation of the state and secondary has always been heavily state supported and then fully state funded ...

Ireland has a long tradition or paying for services that are managed nominally by 3rd party "voluntary sector" bodies like church organisations and basically ending up with a state services without any accountability.

We are seeing it in the huge "chairty" industry that is basically just outsourcing state services. There have been scandals around service quality, finances, abuse , etc etc all because the state just writes blank cheques and hopes for the best.

It's also one of the main reasons for fragmentation, illogical organisation, duplication, lack of financial control etc etc in the health system . There are literally hundreds of "service providers" and a legacy of no control, inspection, auditing etc just little empires spending state money without any accountability to anyone. We are only getting to grips with it in recent years and very slowly.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 11:45AM

jimgoose wrote: »

Bloody Hell! This is starting to put me in mind of Auschwitz or Dachau in 1945! :eek:

I know. Shell shocked here and I knew it was coming. Beyond anything.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 11:49AM

smurgen wrote: »

Unbelieveable twisted way of looking at things.this is the church followers revisionist mindset at work.education and hosiptals ran=church done good,church to receive praise.scandal of child abuse uncovered=societies fault,state to be blamed and pay compensation.why should the state compensated the survivors of abuse instead of the church and religious orders?

?? can hardly decipher your post?

I can and do blame the church 100% for all the evil. My point is that it is evil. And totally the church to blame.

All the more evil as they did so much good earlier and alongside.

I think you misread me?
I hope so!:eek:

smurgen · 06-03-2017 11:50AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Amen to this.

And had the orders not been here? What educational system? They did a wonderful job which makes this all the more heartbreaking .

They did a wonderful job?what are you measuring them against to qulify such a claim?they were funded by the government to do this.they didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.they profited.we could have used that cash to set up a secular organisation.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 11:52AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Without the orders the state would have just done exactly what they did anyway : fully funded education.

The orders effectively managed state funded schools.

The state pays for the teachers, pays for the upkeep and somehow the end users are supposed to be beholden to what is basically an outsourcing service employed by the state to provide a state services we all fund through our taxes.

Primary education here has been a state services since before the foundation of the state and secondary has always been heavily state supported and then fully state funded ...

Ireland has a long tradition or paying for services that are managed nominally by 3rd party "voluntary sector" bodies like church organisations and basically ending up with a state services without any accountability.

We are seeing it in the huge "chairty" industry that is basically just outsourcing state services. There have been scandals around service quality, finances, abuse , etc etc all because the state just writes blank cheques and hopes for the best.

It's also one of the main reasons for fragmentation, illogical organisation, duplication, lack of financial control etc etc in the health system . There are literally hundreds of "service providers" and a legacy of no control, inspection, auditing etc just little empires spending state money without any accountability to anyone. We are only getting to grips with it in recent years and very slowly.

No. As soon as the schools were set up the state took over, but the orders staffed them and the hospitals.

Without the huge numbers to staff the system ie sisters and brs, it could not have come into being

You need to read some basic Irish history.

Th health service ran great until the Srs did aout and at least it was CLEAN

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 11:54AM

There are examples of extremely well run state funded totally secular educational institutions notably UCC and NUIG. They were secular from the outset, deliberately designed to be open to all regardless of faith. Fairly progressive for the 1840s

The original concept behind National School was also non denominational or even secular. The concept didn't last long as the churches quickly moved to quash that notion.

...

Also give me a break about this notion the hospitals were cleaner in the nuns' era.

You're talking about an era when there were no antibiotics and also an era when hospitals were very simple.

The growth of hospital borne infections is largely to do with dependence on antibiotics and the advent of immune suppressing chemotherapy based cancer treatments which only really have been around since the 1970s on a wide scale. We are also doing surgeries that are FAR more complex and entirely reliant on the ability to use antibiotics and other drugs and clean room theatre environments etc to prevent infection. To even attempt some of these in the old days wouldn't have been possible. You'd have died of infection almost definitely, even if healthy.

People live much longer, and survive being much sicker.

Also the death rate in pre 1950s hospitals was huge. They just classified things differently. You would often die of medical misadventure - septicemia etc following surgery because there were infections and no drugs to treat them.

A lot of 1940s/50s theatres wouldn't have been much more sterile than a commercial kitchen!

Compare that to a typical modern Irish theatre which would have full HEPA and beyond air filtration, absolute airtight circulation systems, completely cleanable surfaces, disposable and totally cleanable equipment and so on.

I'd take my chances in 2017 hospital way ahead of 1957! You'd likely come out missing a few bits, if you came out at all.

From 1950 to 2012 Irish people saw a 15 year increase in life expectancy.

neonsofa · 06-03-2017 12:54PM

Graces7 wrote: »

God also gives celibate vocations; be very sure of that. This is a reality that you chose to omit and where He gives that He gives the way of it.

You are of a different generation .. as are many here. I understand that

And we all have "urges"that we choose not to "express" daily?

Diverting that energy is easy enough. It really is.Just not fashionable any more in this age. Modern psychology !!!!

Like being on a diet!!! Eating is also a natural urge. Or do you see refusing chocolate as suppression!!!

NB I do realise I speak from a female point of view of course.

But surely we are above thinking that we cannot choose how we live? Back to the cave man?

With priests though? Same that family and raising kids takes a huge amount or time and energy. The divorce rate among Anglican clergy is high but they also value celibate clergy. Just do not enforce it.

Some of the holiest and purest women I know and knew ( lost a dear Poor Clare last year ) were celibate nuns.

And there are many such.

Just a huge shame of this situation now that all will be blackened

Yes, I suppress my urge for chocolate. I'm not sure why you see that as a bizarre concept. And if I didnt have another option- I go for dark chocolate or have a tangerine or whatever- it would damage my resolve and I would either give in or I would have to further suppress my desire.

Diverting it is obviously not that easy given the many sex scandals involving the priesthood, and I am not including the abuse of children in that term. Sure only recently grindr was all the rage in maynooth.

Grayson · 06-03-2017 12:57PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Yes, I suppress my urge for chocolate. I'm not sure why you see that as a bizarre concept. And if I didnt have another option- I go for dark chocolate or have a tangerine or whatever- it would damage my resolve and I would either give in or I would have to further suppress my desire.

Diverting it is obviously not that easy given the many sex scandals involving the priesthood, and I am not including the abuse of children in that term. Sure only recently grindr was all the rage in maynooth.

Recently? It's a well known secret in Maynooth that the seminarians used to meet young lands from the area. Back in the late 90's there was a mini scandal in the college when someone resigned after reporting this and nothing was done about it.

neonsofa · 06-03-2017 01:04PM

Grayson wrote: »

Recently? It's a well known secret in Maynooth that the seminarians used to meet young lands from the area. Back in the late 90's there was a mini scandal in the college when someone resigned after reporting this and nothing was done about it.

Oh I know it goes way back but don't think they had grindr then :pac:

06-03-2017 01:10PM

smurgen wrote: »

The church needs to be fully removed from any management of any of the states functions.they have shown themselves to be unable to manage effectively and at worst been actively invovled in crimes against the citizens.the tax break for the church should be looked at as I don't want my hard earned money going towards subsidising the lifestyles and business of those with twisted belief systems.by all means practice your faith behind close door but keep it out of my face and do it with your own funding.

I agree with all this, except the highlighted part. If we're going to selectively confine a religious group "behind closed doors" there's loads of other aspects of this society I'd like to see similarly out of sight.

For starters, the incessant noise pollution under the guise of advertising and programming on radio and television stations that we have to endure in public spaces from airports to hospitals to shops being one I'd particularly like to see removed from proselytising. It is infinitely more intrusive on my daily life than anything done by any religious institution. Then all these attempts at brainwashing on behalf of some business on street corners, bus stops, buses and posters across urban areas. But all-pervasive capitalism is the sexy new religion that we don't question in our generation (even if the items advertised are manufactured in some sweatshop for children, as is very frequently the reality behind the glamour advertising).

The god of institutional religion (and its cruelty to children) is dead; long live the god of all-pervasive consumerism (and its cruelty to children).

smurgen · 06-03-2017 01:43PM

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html lovely people.deny deny deny,deflect,deflect,deflect.

pilly · 06-03-2017 01:56PM

smurgen wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html lovely people.deny deny deny,deflect,deflect,deflect.

Jesus Christ, that's just unreal, although to be fair the majority of people would just see that as insanity.

What did make me take stock over the weekend though was the lack of response from the Tuam people. A reporter who was there on Friday notes that there was no-one at the sight and one small bunch of flowers.

Also people actually asked her to leave it alone.

The only person I know from Tuam said "well sure we knew that 2014 why does it all have to be dragged up again" and I get the feeling that's the general consensus.

Whilst I understand that they must feel ashamed, unfortunately shame is a necessary emotion so as that mistakes from the past are not repeated.

Could they now show some love and support?

Anyone on this thread from Tuam might tell me what the actual local response is?

RobertKK · 06-03-2017 02:06PM

pilly wrote: »

Jesus Christ, that's just unreal, although to be fair the majority of people would just see that as insanity.

What did make me take stock over the weekend though was the lack of response from the Tuam people. A reporter who was there on Friday notes that there was no-one at the sight and one small bunch of flowers.

Also people actually asked her to leave it alone.

The only person I know from Tuam said "well sure we knew that 2014 why does it all have to be dragged up again" and I get the feeling that's the general consensus.

Whilst I understand that they must feel ashamed, unfortunately shame is a necessary emotion so as that mistakes from the past are not repeated.

Could they now show some love and support?

Anyone on this thread from Tuam might tell me what the actual local response is?

I suspect there are a lot of elderly ladies who don't want their past dragged up, as they believe their secret is hidden.
Maybe married, had families, have grandchildren and the secret is unknown.

The truth is needed, but there are women who were there and had babies, who lost babies and maybe worried their past which they believed was the past and unknown, would become known to loved ones that they don't want to know.

ThisRegard · 06-03-2017 02:07PM

smurgen wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html lovely people.deny deny deny,deflect,deflect,deflect.

That clown is on Sean Moncrieff now.

nhunter100 · 06-03-2017 02:09PM

pilly wrote:

Jesus Christ, that's just unreal, although to be fair the majority of people would just see that as insanity.

Every bit as dangerous and deluded as those that have denied that the Holocaust happened.

Flippyfloppy · 06-03-2017 02:16PM

What a weirdo.....

Zebra3 · 06-03-2017 02:19PM

Cabaal wrote: »

For once think of how refreshing it would be for a Bishop to spearhead an investigation or digging.

The only reason any bishop should be part of an investigation is when they are being questioned.

The guards should be all over this, raiding whatever premises and seizing whatever documents necessary to get to the bottom of this.

I don't give a toss if some building is "holy" or how important some religious weirdo is meant to be to his slavish followers.

Get the finger out, lads.

smurgen · 06-03-2017 02:24PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

That clown is on Sean Moncrieff now.

Just listened to him,unbelieveable! Moncrieff asked him would he come over and look at the evidence with his own eyes.he said he couldn't because he was too busy battling anti catholism in the west he also accused Catherine Corless of spreading anti catholic propaganda.

Zebra3 · 06-03-2017 02:36PM

Graces7 wrote: »

God also gives celibate vocations; be very sure of that. This is a reality that you chose to omit and where He gives that He gives the way of it.

Will you ever give over with your propaganda ffs? :rolleyes:

There is no proof "God" exists. Zero. Nada.

So please stop making statements that are untrue.

And your "beliefs" are not evidence. There's grown ups here trying to debate things, nobody is interested in your made up claims that you can't back up with one iota of evidence.

neonsofa · 06-03-2017 02:42PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Will you ever give over with your propaganda ffs? :rolleyes:

There is no proof "God" exists. Zero. Nada.

So please stop making statements that are untrue.

And your "beliefs" are not evidence. There's grown ups here trying to debate things, nobody is interested in your made up claims that you can't back up with one iota of evidence.

The person grace was debating with (myself) had been discussing the issue in the context of grace's beliefs, so it was perfectly reasonable for her to respond in the way she did in that case.

Zebra3 · 06-03-2017 02:46PM

archer22 wrote: »

You are the one who needs to face reality.The reason the Protestant religion came into being in the first place was in response to the corruption and hypocrisy in the Catholic Church.
And as for the poor defeated Irish couldn't do anything but accept the Catholic Church...utter nonsense!!.
They had the support of the government of the day and its army if they wanted it taken off their backs..and many did take the opportunity and converted to Protestantism...as did almost all the" defeated Gaelic clans" of Scotland and Wales.
Also the Church controlled Southern Ireland until the 1990s until their power was finally broken when people simply stopped supporting and facilitating them.
Same as they could have done at any stage over the previous 1500 years.

The reason why Protestantism came into being was because some fat English king wanted more action (Portmann and Johansson, I mean who could blame him :pac: ) and no divided loyalties amongst the plebs.

It's just a differing variation of the same crap.

If you look at the CofE, it's' head is a billionaire who is also the British unelected head of state. Totally at odds with the stuff in the bible about the eye of the needle and all that.

whisky_galore · 06-03-2017 02:50PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Will you ever give over with your propaganda ffs? :rolleyes:

There is no proof "God" exists. Zero. Nada.

So please stop making statements that are untrue.

And your "beliefs" are not evidence. There's grown ups here trying to debate things, nobody is interested in your made up claims that you can't back up with one iota of evidence.

People can believe whatever they want to believe, so long as it hurts no-one.

jimgoose · 06-03-2017 02:50PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The reason why Protestantism came into being was because some fat English king wanted more action...

I take it you're referring to Henry VIII of England and his spat with the Pope over the annulment of the former's marriage to Catherine of Aragon? Protestantism began around ten years before that in Wittenberg, Germany with Martin Luther's 95 Theses.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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