"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Fleawuss · 06-03-2017 12:00AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But the Church was banned. We fought to get it back in the 1800s. It didn't impose on us, we demanded it and paid for every single penny if it. The Vatican didn't enslave us, we looked to it to free ourselves.

Read my above reply. To claim the church did not impose on Irish society and govt is an absurd claim. Contraception, denominational education, divorce, sex education, decriminalizing homosexual activity, same sex marriage, ne temere decree, mother and child scheme, to mention a few. You are not dealing with the lived history of the country, just your own happy clappy version.

kylith · 06-03-2017 12:17AM

kbannon wrote: »

I make absolutely no apologies for the different churches. I loathe the RCC and what it has done. I've already clearly stated this a few times on this thread.
It's a despicable organisation run by despicable men.
Similarly the protestant churches fared not much better in looking after the vulnerable.

My point still stands. People stood by and let this happen. They knew what was going on[\quote]

Assuming that people knew what was going on (which, speaking to my older family members, they didn't, or certainly not about the extent of the problem) then what? Do we just shake our heads and say "oh well, everyone knew about it, we won't look into it any more?"

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 12:19AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Extraordinary version of history. The defeated Gaelic clans remained RC after the Refofmation while the invader largely became the Protestant. Religion and identity became synonymous. But the dogmas and morals of the RC church weren't formulated among the Irish clans. The Augustinian version of human sexuality and the Thomist philosophy did not originate in Ireland. I mention these specifically to help you identify the roots of the problem in independent Ireland: a twisted view of human sexuality and a propensity for linguistic gymnastics among the hierarchy with mental reservations. Take s bow Connell.

What alternative religions could Irish people turn to? Baptized at birth, educated in RC schools, under the ne temere decree on mixed marriages. You have some imaginary view that poor people had some choice. Choice is a Recent thing in Ireland and bitterly opposed by the remnants of the organization that have poisoned this country. Stop the obfuscation and just face the truth: the RC church created the poisonous situation we have in Tuam. It's twisted sexuality, its dominance even of state bodies and the police. It's past time to have it slide off the page of history.

I actually think the Irish situation was an odd combination of a particularly conservative interpretation of aspects of Catholicism merged with social backdrop of Victorian puritanical views and notions of respectability coming ahead of everything else.

The UK had some fairly bizzare scandals in terms of how it treated orphans too.
For example: exporting them for cheap labour in Australia and Canada. Incidentally something the orders here plugged into too at one stage : https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/feb/24/child-migrant-programme-slavery

Ireland became stuck in a sort of weird society that just continued and morphed a lot of British Victorian poor law institutions, borstals and harsh morality into an even more extreme catholic version that seemed to drag on as we never really went through the post WWII social revolution that the rest of Western Europe and the UK did. In many ways we sort of got lost in a version of the 1930s that lasted until almost the 1990s.

It doesn't diminish the horror of what happened here, but I think it is important to understand the influences. They were a definite "perfect storm" of a conservative society, a powerful conservative religious organisation, an attempt to create a false vision of Irish identity that was around a notion of conservative religiosity that was actually nothing like Irish slightly wild society with a lot of drinking, craic etc etc

From what I can see these organisations took an opportunity to attempt to socially cleanse Ireland and remove aspects they didn't like and used and abused the new system to do this.

Mrs OBumble · 06-03-2017 12:31AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Does anyone know if there were similar mother and baby "homes" in other RC regions/countries in that part of the 20th century?

Is our brutality uniquely Irish?

In the 1990s, I heard a New Zealand church-history professor speak very matter-of-factly about the uniquely bad combination of Irishness and Catholicism: he said that the local bishops (initially of English or French extraction, later Irish) has to get to grips with the unusual levels of cruelty and sadism displayed by Irish priests and nuns, and how to keep them under control.

At the time I was stunned.

Having lived here, I understand a lot more.

I would suspect that the cruelty exhibited in Catholic institution around the world pretty much matches the spread of Irish priests and nuns/sisters.

Bishopsback · 06-03-2017 01:00AM

There have been many cases in all religions of brutal and inhuman treatment of human beings in the name of some god or other.
I don't believe any god would sanction what has been committed in their name by human beings.
This is a human issue, or should I say to be more correct, an inhuman issue, it could only ultimately be committed by godless people really.

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 01:19AM

@MrsOBumble: I think it's very much a corporate culture within what was a group of institutions in Ireland rather than "irishness". These same organisations absolutely brutalised the Irish population for the best part of a century or more.

I definitely think it's an odd combination of puritanical type behaviour that is seen in British culture and what spread to North America fused with an extremely conservative form Catholicism.

That being said a similar ultra conservative and very dark and aggressive form of Catholicism existed in Spain too right though into modern times.

What's worrying about many forms of Christianity is when they start to focus penance and punishment. It turns into something very dark and very harmful.

I think it's easy enough to forget that it hasn't historically been a very happy, clappy, friendly religion. If has long histories of extreme violence and coercion. The inquisition etc etc etc

Puritanical protestant communities have displayed very similar behaviour too.

The Blackadder Bishop of Bath and Wells fits the bill perfectly. Yet, he was a portrayal of a C of E bishop in the Elizabethan period.

http://blackadder.wikia.com/wiki/Bishop_of_Bath_and_Wells

So clearly there's a thread of extreme violence and fire and brimstone going way way back.

Comedy often gets very close to the bone.

I don't think the RC church has managed to move past this and isn't dealing with it and it's burrying its head in the sand.

I suspect its punishment will be karma as the church simply fizzles away, very deservedly, into irrelevance.

Cdosrun · 06-03-2017 01:39AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In the 1990s, I heard a New Zealand church-history professor speak very matter-of-factly about the uniquely bad combination of Irishness and Catholicism: he said that the local bishops (initially of English or French extraction, later Irish) has to get to grips with the unusual levels of cruelty and sadism displayed by Irish priests and nuns, and how to keep them under control.

At the time I was stunned.

Having lived here, I understand a lot more.

I would suspect that the cruelty exhibited in Catholic institution around the world pretty much matches the spread of Irish priests and nuns/sisters.

And who was head off that order.?

Grayson · 06-03-2017 01:50AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I actually think the Irish situation was an odd combination of a particularly conservative interpretation of aspects of Catholicism merged with social backdrop of Victorian puritanical views and notions of respectability coming ahead of everything else.

The UK had some fairly bizzare scandals in terms of how it treated orphans too.
For example: exporting them for cheap labour in Australia and Canada. Incidentally something the orders here plugged into too at one stage : https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/feb/24/child-migrant-programme-slavery

Ireland became stuck in a sort of weird society that just continued and morphed a lot of British Victorian poor law institutions, borstals and harsh morality into an even more extreme catholic version that seemed to drag on as we never really went through the post WWII social revolution that the rest of Western Europe and the UK did. In many ways we sort of got lost in a version of the 1930s that lasted until almost the 1990s.

It doesn't diminish the horror of what happened here, but I think it is important to understand the influences. They were a definite "perfect storm" of a conservative society, a powerful conservative religious organisation, an attempt to create a false vision of Irish identity that was around a notion of conservative religiosity that was actually nothing like Irish slightly wild society with a lot of drinking, craic etc etc

From what I can see these organisations took an opportunity to attempt to socially cleanse Ireland and remove aspects they didn't like and used and abused the new system to do this.

The Magdalene Asylums (colloquially called Laundries) were pre victorian. The first in Ireland opened up in the 1760's.

It's also worth noting that this happened everywhere the catholic church was. It happened in North America too.

You should check out the Duplessis Orphans. In Quebec up to 20,000 children were taken from their parents and placed in psychiatric institutions. The church got a grant for them so the church made loads of money. When the existing institutions were filled they opened more. Most of the children were from single parent families and were illegally diagnosed with mental illnesses so they could be forceably removed from their families.

Of course the children there suffered horrific abuse, the mortality rates were huge and they were even experimented on.

A few years ago some survivors settled a case with the government but part of the settlement said that they couldn't sue the church. They never recieved an apology from either the church or state.

Cdosrun · 06-03-2017 01:54AM

It's the dailymail but worth a read to understand.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374922/The-house-tears-Secret-tapes-woman-spent-years-controversial-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers-reveals-unmarked-mass-grave-children.html

Grayson · 06-03-2017 01:59AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Does anyone know if there were similar mother and baby "homes" in other RC regions/countries in that part of the 20th century?

Is our brutality uniquely Irish?

The first one was in the UK. The second was Ireland. They were also in North America and Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

However the Irish one was the last to close and that was in the 1990's.

In Spain the church and Franco set about abducting the children of the states "enemies". At least it started that way. In the end the church was taking children from unmarried mothers or anyone they considered "morally- or economically- deficient". The church, which ran the hospitals, would falsify documents for the new parents.
It's estimated that up to 300,000 children were abducted.

Zebra3 · 06-03-2017 02:54AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'll just leave this here (It's from a schoolbook called "Christ’s Life In Us" published by CJ Fallon. It was taken from a US schoolbook originally and reprinted and used in Ireland in the 70's)

https://twitter.com/Oireachtas_RX/status/474969960167792640

Fallon.

Another story altogether......

please helpThank YOU · 06-03-2017 03:19AM

We Have Tuam Galway thats was a Great Money MAKER back then NOW The Rich Have Fostering Children in Care Big Money Maker From Poor Children to be DISCARDED WHEN THERE 18 NO MORE MONEY IN THEN . SO NOW THE POOR ADULT CHILDREN WALK THE STREETS of our Towns and Cities And Gos on Drugs and alcohol .then They Meet a Girl/boy Fall in love and she gets pregnant what Happens then you got it the State takes the Child and into care so The Cash Cow And the Rich keep getting Rich from this thats what happened in the likes of Tuam Galway I WITNESSED THIS FIRST HAND I KNOW A VERY VERY WEALTHY FAMILY WHO LIVED IN A STATELY HOME WHO HAD 6 CHILDREN FOSTERED .And the Foster Mother Give them green mold bread cabbage water soup

please helpThank YOU · 06-03-2017 04:02AM

It is Not RELIGION That is EVIL its Man And Women Who is Evil

ChikiChiki · 06-03-2017 06:43AM

Cdosrun wrote: »

It's the dailymail but worth a read to understand.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374922/The-house-tears-Secret-tapes-woman-spent-years-controversial-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers-reveals-unmarked-mass-grave-children.html

Very upsetting read. That article paints such a vividly grim picture. As an Irishman proud of our history and fight for independence I'm ashamed of these goings on that happened in the decades after. We got rid of British rule only to slide seamlessly into radical fundamentalist Catholicism promoted by the state. Its left me questioning my pride.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 06:53AM

YourSuperior wrote: »

In general terms. The secular West does live side by side with Christianity.

No way. What you are meaning as Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus Christ Son of God Saviour. It has been deformed and exploited beyond recognition and is rotten to the core. As this episode exemplifies .

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 06:59AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I also read recently that not all child abusers are true paedophiles. True paedophiles are apparently rare enough, a lot of child abusers do so because of power and control (?!) apparently, which the priests certainly had over whole communities, let alone the absolute power they had in industrial schools and orphanages.

WHen you are signing up ( conscripting) anyone who will join, with no safety checks, no standards, just "bums on seats" and work horses?
They opened the doors to anyone who would enter.

Unless they were visibly disabled or totally mad or visibly insane.

Controlling by sheer numbers. From within the social classes they were seeking to subjugate

Who had no idea how to handle themselves let alone others and held the purse strings

A lady I used to visit way back; still a faithful, says, " Too much money; too much power."

Her faith had nothing to do with the evil therein.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:00AM

neonsofa wrote: »

That makes sense, thankfully I myself am so far removed from anything like that that I actually don't think about incorrectly using the terms interchangeably, but now that you say it, they are abusers not necessarily paedophiles. And that would again maybe link back with celibacy, they aren't necessarily attracted to children, but are suppressing natural urges and then taking that out on the children.

Celibacy is not suppression. Period.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:07AM

Caroleia wrote: »

The fallout from what they've done is going to cost money. What has it cost so far to uncover what happened at Tuam? And there are calls for DNA tests and proper burials for the poor wee mites - why shouldn't the organisation that was responsible for these crimes pay for the reparations?

Try enforcing that! The orders have been so clever! The Mercies alone in Ireland alone have 1.5 BILLION in assets that they claim they cannot get at.

They claim they they have been "drained" by the govt.

They have spent all available ,money on purpose built retirement homes that are so luxurious. I was invited into several when I was researching and OH MY . They have secular staff to do all the housework and cooking etc and live like landed gentry

Castlebar in Mayo; a retirement home and a special nursing facility for their old ones.. purpose built
Clonakility; a new convent costing nearly E12 1/2 million.

Anything left when they die out will go to Rome in Canon Law. Join Mother Teresa's missing millions.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:11AM

Daisy78 wrote: »

I'm following this story with some interest as I went to school across the road from the burial site. My grandfather would also have made deliveries to the home on occasion.

Whilst the church is rightly to blame for what has happened you have to ask why society as a whole allowed these types of situations to persist. Where were the journalists back in day to probe deeper into these institutions to find out what was going on? To a certain extent i believe that there was a large cross section of society (both the church and the laeity) who thrived on the opportunity to dominate and repress people they saw as less than them, less pious,less deserving, less human in the pretext of carrying out God's work, despite the fact that little compassion or kindness was shown towards the children in their care. There was nothing Christian about it. The way these institutions treated the children under their watch and their unfortunate mother's was as much to do with ego and power as it was to do with acting on the principles of their faith. And part of me thinks that this subjegation suited wider sections of the community as well.... a hierarchical structure where everyone knew their place and their value within it. A former resident of the home told the story of how he found it difficult to build relationships as an adult as the story would go out as to his former past as a child of an unwed mother.It shows the narrow mindedness that existed long after the home shut its doors.

The thought sneaks in against my will; given the sheer numbers? How many women would have died on the streets? The really sad thing is that there was in those days nowhere else.

The Workhouse system died out int he 20s. See

http://irishworkhousecentre.ie/the-workhouse-story/

The sheer numbers when the Tuam home was set up?

NOT excusing! And seeing the numbers of homeless we have now? Are we really any better than in those days?

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:18AM

cactusgal wrote: »

That's interesting, Graces ... Yes, she said that a lot of her friends left around the same time. I was brought up in the States (my mother emigrated after leaving the convent), and, funnily enough, her closest circle of friends in the USA were ex-nuns from Ireland who'd also emigrated and then married American men. As a very young child, I thought a spell in the convent before marriage was what all women did after college!

What Vatican 2 did was try to make religious life the same as ordinary life. To level all life in the Church out, including the contemplatives.

That is when religious life went into serious decline and it has never recovered. All the Orders here including Bon Secours, are almost gone and that dates back to Vatican 2.... starting to pick up in the US. It will never do that here now and every small group that comes here does not last.

Strict enclosure went. The habit was made by choice. A levelling out that lost so much true faith.

Love your last bit! Many many went to "test their vocations" . But it is a long hard road to Life Profession; 8 years often. Of increasing responsibility after the Novitiate which is a gentling

Read "In This House of Brede?" Not the film! Rumer Goden.

Many who did a Novitiate speak with huge affection of those years but knew that they were not cut out for a Profession.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:21AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I think though you've also got to see it in the context of how much power the church wielded socially and politically at the time too.

There was definitely an element of sweeping anything that didn't comply with a narrow view of the world info the most convenient institution never to be seen again.

However, there was a element trying to create a kind of Holy Catholic Ireland in a nearly Irish Stepford Wives clean, tree lined suburbia, villages with dancing at the crossroads, plenty of Mass. Sex well hidden away. No social problems. No visible disability or poverty. No descenting opinions, especially anything left leaning. No divorce because all marriages work perfectly. Everyone was heterosexual and nobody ever got pregnant outside marriage despite the complete ban on contraception. Every house had 14 kids per family, all washed and somehow paid and everyone fluent in Irish. Nuns and priests on bicycles running everything etc etc

It suited a middle class conservative brigade too.

Kinda conservative catholic fantasy land that Ireland never was unless you beat it into submission and locked up anything that didn't conform.

You also had a modern emerging Ireland that was middle class and simply seemed to exist outside of this. If you had money, you lived in the suburbs or didn't ever need to deal with social services etc etc you never encountered the nasty side of these organisations.

Very much a two tier society.

I'm sure many of us have encountered the Bons Secours sisters in the context of their lovely private hospitals that only let you in if you've insurance. They make great tea and have lots of high end medical facilities. So it is hard to believe that there's this other side to them.

All the orders were schizo. One of our politicians highlighted hat re Goldenbridge. She had a wonderful education in the town while up the road in the home... hidden away. They were clever.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:23AM

Caroleia wrote: »

What happened in Tuam happened well before Vatican 2 - what is your point ?

:rolleyes:
???? Unrelated side topic.... happens in active threads.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:25AM

kylith wrote: »

And no-one should forget that there are people in this country who would see us all back there.

where?

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:27AM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Ironic that the religion starts with a girl who falls pregnant in suspicious circumstances, that child is considered the Son of God.
How many sons of God did they throw in the septic tank.

Be sure this has nothing to do with Jesus. Not on iota of Christ in any of this.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:31AM

naughto wrote: »

The bishop of tuam saying he is shocked by what is being releved is a load of bo11ox that pr1ck knew well what happened there and was more than likely told to say nothing

He must then be a veritable Methusaleh? Bishop since 1920s?

:rolleyes:

ChikiChiki · 06-03-2017 07:32AM

A bit off topic but not really. I'd say Enda Kenny is delighted this has come along and taken the heat off him re the Garda Whistleblowers. He should have been made resign for telling lies in the Dail.

But alas no accountability and no one is brought to task or punished for doing a poor job. Good old Ireland, lessons are never learned from our mistakes as we roll from scandal to scandal. That in itself shows immaturity as a nation.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:35AM

kbannon wrote: »

So it was wrong for me to point out how this happened partly because people didn't care and despite the piousness going on at the moment we continue to not care about the vulnerable.
Remember that all those tasked with looking after the vulnerable in these homes weren't just nuns.
For this to have happened, the inspectors, the medical staff, the locals and so on all knew and turned a blind eye because if they didnt then they would have done something. But they didn't do anything because the kids didn't matter.
Show me one iota of evidence that they did matter. Show me if people's concern for the most vulnerable has really, really changed.

Read Ryan and Murphy. The reports were accurate and telling but no one it seems had the power to enforce them. I think at base because no one had any idea what to do with orphans if they closed the homes down?

Think about it? There were no other facilities and by the time of the reports it was all far more than a mother and baby situation

Cabaal · 06-03-2017 07:36AM

Graces7 wrote: »

He must then be a veritable Methusaleh? Bishop since 1920s? :rolleyes:

The dogs on the street knew of it in Tuam, he knew as well. He just choose to ignore it.

For once think of how refreshing it would be for a Bishop to spearhead an investigation or digging.

But no, this won't happen because they are scared of what they'll find and all they want to do is protect the church. They hope the longer they wait the more victims will be dead.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:37AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Does anyone know if there were similar mother and baby "homes" in other RC regions/countries in that part of the 20th century?

Is our brutality uniquely Irish?

canada, australia.. all run and staffed in the same appalling way by the Irish,,,, so yes.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 07:42AM

Grayson wrote: »

The Magdalene Asylums (colloquially called Laundries) were pre victorian. The first in Ireland opened up in the 1760's.

It's also worth noting that this happened everywhere the catholic church was. It happened in North America too.

You should check out the Duplessis Orphans. In Quebec up to 20,000 children were taken from their parents and placed in psychiatric institutions. The church got a grant for them so the church made loads of money. When the existing institutions were filled they opened more. Most of the children were from single parent families and were illegally diagnosed with mental illnesses so they could be forceably removed from their families.

Of course the children there suffered horrific abuse, the mortality rates were huge and they were even experimented on.

A few years ago some survivors settled a case with the government but part of the settlement said that they couldn't sue the church. They never recieved an apology from either the church or state.

All run by Irish.. and check recent developments also in Canada.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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