"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

eviltwin · 04-03-2017 02:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If youre alleging that babies were deliberately murdered in Tuam, then thats certainly grounds for outrage.

But I doubt it. People forget how poor and ignorant and awful (by todays standards) Ireland was in the 1920s and 1930s.

I have a group photo of a country school taken in 1930, not too far from Tuam. The girls were dressed in ill fitting, obviously handed down clothes, maybe parcels from america, and the boys were mostly barefooted. Its very unlikely any of these would have received modern medical care and antibiotics if they were ill. Its just the way it was then. Sad but true.

No one is saying that but any body found in this way needs to be investigated. Foul play needs to be ruled out, bodies identified and at the very least given the respectful burial they deserve. These children were just dumped, it's not good enough.

We also need the orders to finally reveal the details of any other such sites. The lack of willingness to be open and honest about what they know is the worst part of this. If there are other sites like this they need to reveal them.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:10PM

Jurnee Aggressive Tapir wrote: »

Yet again, that is not true. I'm sure you have known as many religious in Ireland as I have. None, in my experience were from 'the back streets'. Middle class, business people, farmers and shopkeepers at best.

The nuns that came from working class homes were put to work in the kitchens and laundries of the Convent side by side with the abandoned "fallen" women.
I have to keep repeating that none of this was done in secret.
The whole of society knew what the "rules" were and knew , and agreed, with the consequences of breaking the rules.

KKkitty · 04-03-2017 02:11PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm a bit lost by this story.

What exactly is the fuss about? the high death rate of the infants or the fact that they didn't have proper burials?

There were huge numbers of children born in these homes and perinatal mortality in the 1920s-1950s was much higher than today. The death rate in Tuam has been reported as being double that of other homes. Bad, surely meriting closure if it was audited today, but does it merit the outrage it seems to be evoking?

Most graveyards in Ireland have a 'little angels ' spot, often forgotten now where babies used to be buried. Mostly its not marked. The church had a doctrine of Limbo in those days and unmarked burials like Tuam were usual.

We should be careful not to judge the past by the standards of the present.

On the other hand, is somebody suggesting something much more nefarious happened in Tuam?

I don't know what to think about this post but seriously these women were made feel like a child wasn't some blessing. They were shut away from all they knew to give birth to babies they weren't allowed to keep. Being used for washing the clothes of the people who should have protected them. No one knows yet what exactly happened to the poor children who were thrown into the sewage tank.

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:15PM

Deleted User wrote:

If youre alleging that babies were deliberately murdered in Tuam, then thats certainly grounds for outrage.

Malnutrition as a cause of death. Insufficient amount of food being provided to sustain life thereby causing death is murder. Do you believe murder only involves the physical activity of killing?

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:16PM

eviltwin wrote: »

No one is saying that but any body found in this way needs to be investigated. Foul play needs to be ruled out, bodies identified and at the very least given the respectful burial they deserve. These children were just dumped, it's not good enough.

We also need the orders to finally reveal the details of any other such sites. The lack of willingness to be open and honest about what they know is the worst part of this. If there are other sites like this they need to reveal them.

What I'm interested in is how you think that the dead children's bodies should have been disposed off?
The county council at the time was in charge of financing these "workhouses ".
There seems to have been a constant effort on behalf of some of the councillors to reduce the per capita amount paid to the nuns to keep each girl.
To buy graves and have funerals would have cost money. Where was this money supposed to come from?
Maybe the family of the dead child should have been asked to pay?

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote:

But I doubt it. People forget how poor and ignorant and awful (by todays standards) Ireland was in the 1920s and 1930s.

Home closed in the 60's. Have a look at the article on the Journal.ie. The names and date of death of all the children are listed. The list extends well beyond the 20/30's.

IvyTheTerrible · 04-03-2017 02:17PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Malnutrition as a cause of death. Insufficient amount of food being provided to sustain life thereby causing death is murder. Do you believe murder only involves the physical activity of killing?

Some will answer "Bla bla different times bla bla tradition bla bla too old to take responsibility".
It's a disgrace.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:18PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Malnutrition as a cause of death. Insufficient amount of food being provided to sustain life thereby causing death is murder. Do you believe murder only involves the physical activity of killing?

Who was paying for the food and shelter?

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:21PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote:

Some will answer "Bla bla different times bla bla tradition bla bla too old to take responsibility". It's a disgrace.

Former Nazis are still being prosecuted, from the 40's. The home closed in the 60's some of those responsible for the running and operation of these homes are still alive. Age should not be an immunity for their actions.

eviltwin · 04-03-2017 02:21PM

infogiver wrote: »

What I'm interested in is how you think that the dead children's bodies should have been disposed off?
The county council at the time was in charge of financing these "workhouses ".
There seems to have been a constant effort on behalf of some of the councillors to reduce the per capita amount paid to the nuns to keep each girl.
To buy graves and have funerals would have cost money. Where was this money supposed to come from?
Maybe the family of the dead child should have been asked to pay?

I'm not talking about then, I'm talking about now. They should be given a proper burial place. Leaving them there doesn't sit right with me. They were children, they had value and they mattered. If there is a chance that even one child can be laid to rest with his or her mother it should be looked into.

04-03-2017 02:21PM

KKkitty wrote: »

these women were made feel like a child wasn't some blessing. They were shut away from all they knew to give birth to babies they weren't allowed to keep.

Very true. That was the Irish society of the time. Its fine to blame the church but it wasnt just the church. People really felt that having a baby out of wedlock brought great shame to their families and such girls were routinely sent away to homes such as Tuam or to England. Right up until the 1970s society looked down on and denigrated these girls and their families.

The closest parallel today is the ethos in many muslim countries.

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:23PM

infogiver wrote:

Who was paying for the food and shelter?

The good sisters and the church was charging the state for this 'service ' they also recieved donations. Are you trying to justify what happened at Tuam?

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:23PM

KKkitty wrote: »

I don't know what to think about this post but seriously these women were made feel like a child wasn't some blessing. They were shut away from all they knew to give birth to babies they weren't allowed to keep. Being used for washing the clothes of the people who should have protected them. No one knows yet what exactly happened to the poor children who were thrown into the sewage tank.

But that was how Irish society felt about unmarried mothers at the time.
The religious orders were only falling into line with public opinion
You seem to be under the illusion that all this was going on unbeknownst to the public at large
You do realise that it was the girls own family who threw them over onto the institution?
Your trying to superimpose our more charitable view today on 1953.
That's crazy

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 04-03-2017 02:24PM

infogiver wrote: »

What I'm interested in is how you think that the dead children's bodies should have been disposed off?
The county council at the time was in charge of financing these "workhouses ".
There seems to have been a constant effort on behalf of some of the councillors to reduce the per capita amount paid to the nuns to keep each girl.
To buy graves and have funerals would have cost money. Where was this money supposed to come from?
Maybe the family of the dead child should have been asked to pay?

RCC had enough in its coffers to build this, up the road from Tuam, in 1958.

Very much a matter of priorities and not resources if you ask me

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:25PM

Deleted User wrote:

Very true. That was the Irish society of the time. Its fine to blame the church but it wasnt just the church. People really felt that having a baby out of wedlock brought great shame to their families and such girls were routinely sent away to homes such as Tuam or to England. Right up until the 1970s society looked down on and denigrated these girls and their families.

You wish to ignore the grip the Church had on the state , the church also reinforced the shame people felt. An absolutely insidious organisation.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:28PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

The good sisters and the church was charging the state for this 'service ' they also recieved donations. Are you trying to justify what happened at Tuam?

I'm not justifying anything.
I'm trying to put some reality on the outrage
The local authority was responsible for paying the nuns per girl. Do you think that amount also included paying for land for graves and undertakers bills?
It barely covered food and clothes.
That's why they were doing laundry.
If the families of the girls wanted funerals and graves then what stopped them from having a funeral and a grave?

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:29PM

infogiver wrote:

The religious orders were only falling into line with public opinion.

This is some of the most amusing nonsense yet on this thread. The church had a grip on society and the political institutions of the state. I suggest you research for an example the fight Dr Noel Browne had against the Church in the form of Bishop McQuaid.

04-03-2017 02:30PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

You wish to ignore the grip the Church had on the state , the church also reinforced the shame people felt. An absolutely insidious organisation.

Yes, it was the Church. It wasn't us.

Keep saying this. If you say it often enough you might come to believe it. Everybody was complicit.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:31PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

You wish to ignore the grip the Church had on the state , the church also reinforced the shame people felt. An absolutely insidious organisation.

You wish to ignore the fact that the entirety of Irish society was in total agreement with the girls being in the institutions.
Because if they weren't then why were they in there at all?

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:31PM

infogiver wrote:

If the families of the girls wanted funerals and graves then what stopped them from having a funeral and a grave?

Were they afforded the opportunity to claim the body? I'm sure they would jave choosen anything other than a disused septic tank.

Calina · 04-03-2017 02:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If youre alleging that babies were deliberately murdered in Tuam, then thats certainly grounds for outrage.

But I doubt it. People forget how poor and ignorant and awful (by todays standards) Ireland was in the 1920s and 1930s.

I have a group photo of a country school taken in 1930, not too far from Tuam. The girls were dressed in ill fitting, obviously handed down clothes, maybe parcels from america, and the boys were mostly barefooted. Its very unlikely any of these would have received modern medical care and antibiotics if they were ill. Its just the way it was then. Sad but true.

The infant mortality rate in Tuam and Bessborough in Cork were far in excess of the rate outside the homes. Sure Ireland was pretty poor at the time but it does not explain the high infant mortality rates in the establishments concerned.

It is also worth noting that Bessborough was shut down by the chief medical officer in the country for a year iirc owing to the poor health of the children and the general conditions in the home.

An argument of Ireland was poor sure it wasn't different out side the homes etc etc is akin to Nothing to See here. But it does not reflect the reality.

As a side note, one of the reoccurring themes in Maeve Binchy's writing relates to unwed/single mothers and the solutions. Eg... children being better off dead if they didn't have fathers, (Glass Lake), the clinical assessential which Nan does of her prospects when she gets pregnant in Circle of Friends, Elizabeth's abortion in Light a Penny Candle, the marrying off of Orla again in the Glass Lake amongst other things. What I don't recall is a reference to the Magdalen and Mother and Baby Homes except very obliquely about girls going to distant relatives for some time if they got into trouble.

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote:

Yes, it was the Church. It wasn't us.

Never said it wasn't us, cults usually only work by brainwashing their devotees. The RCC has had great success as a cult.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:36PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

This is some of the most amusing nonsense yet on this thread. The church had a grip on society and the political institutions of the state. I suggest you research for an example the fight Dr Noel Browne had against the Church in the form of Bishop McQuaid.

I'm sorry you think it's funny. It's not really.
Are you saying that the great and good of Ireland (your grandparents and mine by the way) didn't know that the girls were in the institutions?
Wether you like it or not nobody thought there was anything wrong with the situation and that's why it continued until well into the 1990s.
Are you seriously suggesting that people in the 90s were afraid of the Church because quite clearly they weren't.

Calina · 04-03-2017 02:37PM

infogiver wrote: »

But that was how Irish society felt about unmarried mothers at the time.
The religious orders were only falling into line with public opinion
You seem to be under the illusion that all this was going on unbeknownst to the public at large
You do realise that it was the girls own family who threw them over onto the institution?
Your trying to superimpose our more charitable view today on 1953.
That's crazy

I think you'll find the Church was dictating social mores at the time as indeed they are still trying to. The issue is they had significantly more success until perhaps the 1990s.

KKkitty · 04-03-2017 02:38PM

infogiver wrote: »

But that was how Irish society felt about unmarried mothers at the time.
The religious orders were only falling into line with public opinion
You seem to be under the illusion that all this was going on unbeknownst to the public at large
You do realise that it was the girls own family who threw them over onto the institution?
Your trying to superimpose our more charitable view today on 1953.
That's crazy

The church made people think that having a baby outside of marriage was wrong. If you say something enough times there are people who will end up believing it. They had a hold over this country for too long. No matter what a priest or nun did you dare not speak against them. They did what they did for years to vulnerable kids and then treated women with utter disdain for decades. How many Irish people condemned the Holocaust and other atrocities in other countries but yet let the RCC do what they did without making a stand. I'm not against religion but once evil happens within a religion and people help cover it up I don't believe it anymore.

04-03-2017 02:39PM

Calina wrote: »

except very obliquely about girls going to distant relatives for some time if they got into trouble.

Thats what happened if you had welcoming relatives in suitable locations and could afford it.
Otherwise their families sent their daughters to the homes.

Calina · 04-03-2017 02:39PM

infogiver wrote: »

I'm sorry you think it's funny. It's not really.
Are you saying that the great and good of Ireland (your grandparents and mine by the way) didn't know that the girls were in the institutions?
Wether you like it or not nobody thought there was anything wrong with the situation and that's why it continued until well into the 1990s.
Are you seriously suggesting that people in the 90s were afraid of the Church because quite clearly they weren't.

I think it is likely a lot of people did not necessarily know what conditions were like if they had no reason to be aware. Particularly if there was no such establishment in their neighbourhood.

Calina · 04-03-2017 02:41PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thats what happened if you had welcoming relatives in suitable locations and could afford it.
Otherwise their families sent their daughters to the homes.

You missed the point. That could be the story to explain a temporary absence. It does not mean that is what happened. Call it a social metaphor if you like.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 02:42PM

Calina wrote: »

I think you'll find the Church was dictating social mores at the time as indeed they are still trying to. The issue is they had significantly more success until perhaps the 1990s.

Your painting a picture of a country entirely populated by cowering brain dead morons.
What is the problem with just accepting that people didn't approve of unmarried mothers for a myriad of reasons including inheritance rights and land ownership and the institutions provided the perfect solution to those who broke the rules?

eviltwin · 04-03-2017 02:44PM

My aunt was a nun in Navan Road mother and baby home. They had a day room for visitors, very nice with cups of tea and cake and the inmates presented in their Sunday best. They probably thought their daughter was living a grand life. They didn't see the reality. To the day she died she refused to see the treatment of those girls as a bad thing. In her mind the alternative was worse, they had a roof over their heads, food to eat, so what if they had to do a bit of work to repay the nuns generosity.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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