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"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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Comments

  • #362
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Yes...a convenient baddie. Might I remind you that the church enjoyed the support of pretty much all mainstream political parties here? And the majority of the population were quite happy with the status quo. Don't think for one second that FG wasn't cosying up to it and trying not to offend it.

    Just think for one second...do you think an anti church party could have made any headway in 1950s Ireland?

    Dev was undoubtedly deferent, but as you say they all were...because they were our reps and we embraced the Church. And he actually showed less servility than many, people forget the Constitution was opposed by the Church and the Vatican as it didn't say we were a one denomination country as they fought for. He also stood up to it again in the 1950s when the Coalition fell over the Mother and Child scheme, he swept into power, and pretty much introduced the legislation again in subsequent health acts.


  • #363
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Yes...a convenient baddie. Might I remind you that the church enjoyed the support of pretty much all mainstream political parties here? And the majority of the population were quite happy with the status quo. Don't think for one second that FG wasn't cosying up to it and trying not to offend it.

    Just think for one second...do you think an anti church party could have made any headway in 1950s Ireland?
    You are Right but in time we will see a lot more of this. LOOK at the Children s referendum in 2012 was like the brexit give power to the Government of our children we will see a lot more of tuams in Galway its going on as I speak.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: and in the usa the voted in Donal Trump and look what we did give the power of our Children to the government with this new Garda child abuse hotline 24/7 all it takes is sum one who dos not like you to make A Malicious call and say good bye to your Children .


  • #364
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    You are Right but in time we will see a lot more of this. LOOK at the Children s referendum in 2012 was like the brexit give power to the Government of our children we will see a lot more of tuams in Galway its going on as I speak.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: and Donal Trump and look what we did o my God
    North Korea /Ireland


  • #365
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Samaris wrote: »
    While society does have something to face up to in how these women were treated (in short, atrociously), it was still the order "looking after" these women and children that did the deeds. The investigations should spread across Ireland and to other countries. When the industrial schools business started coming out, other countries started finding the same things had happened in theirs. If I'm remembering rightly, Austria had a big scandal over it. I don't say that to diminish it, on the contrary, these forgotten people should be remembered, buried properly and the injustices done to them brought to light. Tuam wasn't the only one in Ireland (and it's a crying shame that there's not been a decision made yet to investigate Bessborough, which had a mortality rate in children over twice that of Tuam), and Ireland won't be the only country. A full investigation here might also provoke investigations in other countries.

    This is what happens when a small group of people are given absolute control of other people, there is -no- oversight and there's a concious effort to designate the controlled group as "lesser" and unimportant. Religion was a useful tool in this, and it was backed up by the State and the people. The whole thing was normalised in Irish society; it was accepted that this was the way things were, the way things had always been and would always be. The last Magdalene Laundry only closed in 1996.

    Samaris. I have family in Canada where the abuse was even worse. NB Mostly Irish nuns, priests and brothers as in Australia.

    The three churches conspired to rob the First Nation and Inuit of land.Google "canadian holocaust" You will need a strong stomach.

    Just been a huge govt commission there; the last figure I heard was 1/4 million little ones killed, many by lethal injection. Giving them blankets from smallpox victims.....

    There have also been investigations in Australia; same story.

    Maybe folk do not know the basis of this? After the Famine, when the millions had died and fled, the vatican chose Ireland to be literally the breeding ground for sisters, priests etc. From here they would go out across the world. It was Empire building. Paul Cardinal Cullen was the chosen one; an Irish "strong farmer"

    They chose Ireland as it was desperately poor and weak after the Famine so vulnerable and easy to work with. ALso they love big families. Good breeders they thought.

    So they took over the country; if you control education and health care and the punitive system? Easy then to run the whole country.


  • #366
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    KKkitty wrote: »
    How many of these poor women were welcomed back into their own families if they went home after being in these institutions? A small few I'd say. They were never free of the stigma of getting pregnant outside marriage. I just hope this atrocity wakes up the people of this country to what the church did to these poor women and babies.

    They never went home. They were kept until death.

    Watch the film? Magdalen Sisters and "sex in a cold climate" Online.


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  • #367
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    The parents of the children sent them to the Convents and seminaries.
    There's no point now in pretending that the RCC sent around a "child catcher" van or something.
    Having a child or children in Holy Orders lifted the mother in particular into a higher stratosphere then the other women.
    You could die happy if you had reared a priest, and you could look down your nose at your sister or your neighbor who didn't.
    Irish people were and continue to be almost horrifically snobbish. It used to be having a son a PP and now it's having all the kids at Uni.
    It's only if you live somewhere other then Ireland that you realise this

    Actually they did in their way. see my other post. Demanded the children


  • #368
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    None. Philomena of the famous film starring Steve Coogan was dropped off at the Convent in Roscrea by her father and told that as far as he was concerned she was dead.
    She made her peace with him years later but the fact of the matter is, once the baby was born and most times sold to an American family, the mother of the baby had absolutely nowhere to go and had to stay in the insistution

    I visited Sean Ross Abbey , Roscrea ,years back when all this was just starting to emerge.. Butter woudl not melt.... a very different story they told then..

    Hardly any of them are left now. God is not mocked


  • #369
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    It's typically Irish that this glaring fact is totally ignored. You can see it on this thread.
    Not only the families but the entire society was in total agreement that the best solution to illegitimacy was the institutions.
    The only solution really.
    The farming community in particular were determined that no girl was going to arrive at the front door with a baby in her arms demanding to be included in the will
    Likewise if the daughter of the farm "fell by the wayside " then they would be scandalised and her siblings would never now make good matches themselves.

    Wrong emphasis. Sorry! Babies were welcomed as others here have said.


  • #370
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Samaris. I have family in Canada where the abuse was even worse. NB Mostly Irish nuns, priests and brothers as in Australia.

    The three churches conspired to rob the First Nation and Inuit of land.Google "canadian holocaust" You will need a strong stomach.

    Just been a huge govt commission there; the last figure I heard was 1/4 million little ones killed, many by lethal injection. Giving them blankets from smallpox victims.....

    There have also been investigations in Australia; same story.

    Maybe folk do not know the basis of this? After the Famine, when the millions had died and fled, the vatican chose Ireland to be literally the breeding ground for sisters, priests etc. From here they would go out across the world. It was Empire building. Paul Cardinal Cullen was the chosen one; an Irish "strong farmer"

    They chose Ireland as it was desperately poor and weak after the Famine so vulnerable and easy to work with. ALso they love big families. Good breeders they thought.

    So they took over the country; if you control education and health care and the punitive system? Easy then to run the whole country.
    Why did the people not stand up to the church? the stood up the british around the same time? there sumthing not adding up here


  • #371
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Irelands shame. Its absolutely disgusting and so is our failure to get to the bottom of these matters.

    Thankfully the Catholic Church is dying out.

    Their secular power is. Remains to be seen what is left.

    It is my privilege to know some fine and sincere folk of deep faith Who are suffering now. My former landlord is one such. He asked me if all the abuse stories were true. When I said yes and more? Gutted. " They have let us down" .It did not alter his faith.

    These abusers are ignoring the faith they claim to represent.


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  • #372
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

    It must be hard for anyone alive who was in that home and who had a child now wondering what happened if their child is dead or alive

    It is fine and good and of Jesus. BLESS YOU!


  • #373
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Most nuns and priests were from well to do farming families, not from the families of the poor. The orders were a bit snobby like that.


  • #374
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Check out the original Tuam Mass Grave Children's thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2057220713&page=99

    A moderator from boards, Robinpch set up a petition for an investigation around the found burial site that he presented to Frances Fitzgerald, back in 2014


  • #375
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,162 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Why did the people not stand up to the church? the stood up the british around the same time? there sumthing not adding up here

    Anyone who stood up to the church would be shunned by their own community, that's the difference. The Church was everything to them, inso much as religion first...then country.


  • #376
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    Most nuns and priests were from well to do farming families, not from the families of the poor. The orders were a bit snobby like that.
    Ireland must full of pea brains looking up to people in uniforms still do today


  • #377
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//attachment.php?attachmentid=310491&d=1402504821
    Petition of 27,000+ signatures being presented to Charlie Flanagan and Frances Fitzgerald calling for an investigation.

    I'm hoping the investigation continues now, it's taken a long time to confirm the fact there is a mass grave there.


  • #378
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//attachment.php?attachmentid=310491&d=1402504821
    Petition of 27,000+ signatures being presented to Charlie Flanagan and Frances Fitzgerald calling for an investigation.

    I'm hoping the investigation continues now, it's taken a long time to confirm the fact there is a mass grave there.
    You have better chance of winning the lotto than the two people you mentioned above I would have no faith in both of them . THERE IS NO LAW IN COURTS OF IRELAND JUST MAN MADE LAWS JUSTICE IN THE NEXT LIFE .ask them about Grace in Waterford


  • #379
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 19,483 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Corless on BBC radio 4 now.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #380
    Noddyholder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Noddyholder


    Autumn-winter 2014

    An email from public relations guru Terry Prone, representing the Bon Secours sisters, emerges, claiming there is “no mass grave, no evidence that children were ever so buried, and a local police force casting their eyes to heaven” in the area.


    The email was sent in response to a request for an interview with Sr Marie Ryan of the Bon Secours nuns by French documentary maker Saskia Weber.

    Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Prone confirms she sent the email, but says there’s “absolutely no difference” between the substance of it and public pronouncements made by the Bon Secours sisters.

    “The sisters never knew anything about it,” she says.


  • #381
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Already am looking into that and will post later. May be that the illegitimacy trumped the other idea? Will find out.

    And we are talking here re under fives. And not sure either re their attending school; certainly kids in the industrial schools did not merge until near the end of that system.

    Any baptised baby should be buried in consecrated ground in Canon Law.
    I know a few people who went to school with Tuam Home children. I'll ask around if anyone recalls them preparing for First Holy Confession /First Communion. If they did, then they had to have been baptised. I'll update you if I find out anything.

    Like you, I suspect that even in spite of being received into God's family via baptism, the stigma of illegitimacy dictated their poor treatment. They probably thought that they weren't worthy of a simple box and a prayer said over them :(
    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Eamon de valera was in power when sum of this was going on in Ireland.

    John Charles McQuaid was Archbishop of Ireland at the time. A raging misogynist and had a big hand in these homes, laundries and forced adoptions and had an unusual amount of influence with the governments at the time.


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  • #382
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,735 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Catherine Corless deserves a medal or something for her work on this.


  • #383
    Caroleia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 129 ✭✭Caroleia


    Graces7 wrote: »

    Maybe folk do not know the basis of this? After the Famine, when the millions had died and fled, the vatican chose Ireland to be literally the breeding ground for sisters, priests etc. From here they would go out across the world. It was Empire building. Paul Cardinal Cullen was the chosen one; an Irish "strong farmer"

    They chose Ireland as it was desperately poor and weak after the Famine so vulnerable and easy to work with. ALso they love big families. Good breeders they thought.

    So they took over the country; if you control education and health care and the punitive system? Easy then to run the whole country.

    This has managed to shock me all over again :mad::mad: I am so angry at this


  • #384
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Neyite wrote:
    I know a few people who went to school with Tuam Home children. I'll ask around if anyone recalls them preparing for First Holy Confession /First Communion. If they did, then they had to have been baptised. I'll update you if I find out anything.


    There was a woman on the radio yesterday who lived in one and made her communion.


  • #385
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,180 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Why did the people not stand up to the church? the stood up the british around the same time? there sumthing not adding up here

    Because the British weren't Irish. And the British were proddy's. The definition of being Irish included being catholic.


  • #386
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    pilly wrote: »
    There was a woman on the radio yesterday who lived in one and made her communion.

    I'm certain the children were baptised Catholics, but would like it verified - in those days, you'd get excommunicated for even stepping into a protestant service. There is no way that they would deign to house and rear -even if paid- for children who were both illegitimate and heathens.


  • #387
    neonsofa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is and being in denial of that?

    If it were not then all this would have been made public decades ago .. the Orders still have not even paid the abuse victims

    had they changed that would have been done.

    There is no penitence, only grief that they got caught. Never has been any penitence. The orders have gone on feathering their nests, building their luxury retirement homes. Boasting of all they did for Ireland.

    It is the same and worse.

    You've taken my post entirely out of context for some reason. Someone posted that single mothers are still judged by society and said that it is still the same.
    Nothing at all to do with the church.

    As a single mother who was allowed keep my child, while society as a whole helped and supported us (yes sometimes with judgement) I can tell you it is absolutely not the same. Nowhere near it. To think that a few ignorant comments made on the Adrian Kennedy phoneshow or After Hours about money grabbing single parents is the same as this would be incredibly insulting to those poor woman and their babies. Things have changed for the better in society and acknowledging that is not denial.


  • #388
    jackboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,220 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Dónal wrote: »
    Catherine Corless deserves a medal or something for her work on this.

    She does but like all whistleblowers in Ireland she will get nothing but abuse. I have no doubt that meetings have already taken place on how to ruin her reputation.


  • #389
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    jackboy wrote: »
    She does but like all whistleblowers in Ireland she will get nothing but abuse. I have no doubt that meetings have already taken place on how to ruin her reputation.

    She's well regarded in the town. Lots of people are very proud of her determination and are fully supportive of her.

    Who else would try to discredit her? Zappone? Not likely given her recent screw up in the Maurice McCabe issue, Zappone needs to come out of this smelling of roses and doing everything exactly right otherwise her political career is damned. Ditto for Enda and for any politician who sticks their neck out to defend the Order.

    The diocese? Not them either - the archbishop of Tuam is on record saying he had no knowledge or records of any of this. So the Church /Vatican have massively distanced themselves and hung the Bons Secours out to dry - they are NOT going to voluntarily wade into the fray. They've had enough scandals of their own. Unless some evidence comes to light that the diocese were aware or complicit, the Archbishop is going to say nothing.

    The nuns might try, but anything they do say to try and discredit a woman with more compassion, christianity and kindness than the lot of them put together will only add to the already damning evidence that is already there. Plus their slick PR firm will advise them to keep their mouths well shut as they've already been doing.


  • #390
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Sadly, this story did not shock me. It stands to reason that the treatment of mothers and babies in these places would be universal here.

    I just feel so sad that there was a time when women were condemned and babies regarded as little more than trash or profit.

    May those responsible rot in hell for the treatment of those unfortunate enough to be placed in their 'care'.


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  • #391
    smurgen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Noddyholder wrote: »
    Autumn-winter 2014

    An email from public relations guru Terry Prone, representing the Bon Secours sisters, emerges, claiming there is “no mass grave, no evidence that children were ever so buried, and a local police force casting their eyes to heaven” in the area.


    The email was sent in response to a request for an interview with Sr Marie Ryan of the Bon Secours nuns by French documentary maker Saskia Weber.

    Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Prone confirms she sent the email, but says there’s “absolutely no difference” between the substance of it and public pronouncements made by the Bon Secours sisters.

    “The sisters never knew anything about it,” she says.

    Terry prone is morally corrupt.what a dispicable woman.


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