"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 05:23AM

Cdosrun wrote: »

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

Can You see why the Nuns did not stand up ? look what this Man Got for Stand up SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE .so what would have been done to them Nuns at the time?

professore · 04-03-2017 05:25AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How many babies of asylum seekers in Ireland have died, and where are they buried?

How many children of asylum seekers like in close proximity with prople who have not been vetted to ensure they are safe around children?

Do you have evidence of this? If so it's your duty to go to the gardai AND the newspapers.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:30AM

pilly wrote: »

Hurting them financially is not the only way. They can be sent to prison. Has their actually ever been a nun sent to prison in this country? I've never heard of it.

Ah but the old wans , Sisters, now live in palatial luxury. In Clonakility alone, they built a new convent that cost over( I have had access through my research work to many f their palaces) .

Maybe if they had to live as all pensioners do? Far better than prison as I suspect prisoners live better than we do on basic pensions .

professore · 04-03-2017 05:31AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh by the way,if you are apportioning blame? WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERs Of THESE BABIES?

Where were they?

Why specifically point at the fathers? I would say many of them were unaware they were fathers - the mother's family certainly would keep it quiet.

Of the ones that knew, they were no better or worse than anyone else at the time. Is someone on this thread specifically blaming the mothers? I haven't seen it but haven't read from the start. If they are they need to take a good look at themselves as their attitude of deflecting blame from the church made this kind of thing possible.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:33AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
1961 is 56 years ago.

So? War crimes from World War 2 are still being prosecuted and maybe you are not aware that a religious order is legally and morally and financially responsible for all its members past and present?

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 05:34AM

professore wrote: »

I am sure there were plenty of good Nazis too.

I'v no idea about Nazis but having spent years in a home run by nuns.........

Btw the good ones never stayed around for long only the bad ones.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:38AM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Sorry. That's just a load of non sequiturs one after the other.

Yes. Dead bodies were disposed of in a perfunctory and callous way. That's your story.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would make up a banner headline saying.

"Official: 'Babies buried in septic tank' story is bollox!!!"

Which it is. Now let's remind ourselves of the time line of events. Ms Corless, a local historian, was curious as to the fate of the people who died while resident at the home. There was no public memorial or acknowledgement anywhere in the town. So over a period of years at her own expense and with her own diligence she tracked down the official records of deaths reported in the Mother and Baby home and came up with a number. Fair play to her for a thorough and worthy piece of research.

She published her findings in a local history journal. She tried to interest the national press. And was met with indifference.

This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing) overworked editors saying: "What's the story? The deaths were not covered up. They were reported to the authorities and recorded. The "news hook" is that there's no headstones?? Do me a favour. "

Then the story emerges about the two little boys forty years ago finding some bones in what had been a septic tank. So people put two and two together (I'm not saying Ms Corless was responsible for this) and we get the "Babies dumped in a septic tank" story. This was the little bit of bull**** that caused the story to flower and spread across the world faster than a rhododendron scourge in Killarney National Park.

And that part of the story has now been exposed as untrue. There have been no remains found in the septic tank. (Read the statement from the Commission)

The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank.

That doesn't reflect well on the church as a church. It is also a tragic illustration of how those who couldn't afford a decent undertaker were disposed of after death down through the centuries. (Ever seen Amadeus? The funeral scene? Even Mozart was dumped in a mass grave because he was penniless at the time of his death)

That's it. When you strip it down to its essentials. Poor people get perfunctory treatment in death. But Genocide? Holocaust? Murder?

Calm down. Please.

You ar working for the Church? With this whitewash and these distortions?

Unconsecrated ground; lack of respect.. maybe look up the Catechism of th Catholic Church and see how we are ordered to treat the dead?

and yes all that I have bolded. Not just this home but many around the country as this was all agreed policy

Hidden corpses. Always suspect.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:43AM

pilly wrote: »

Why has it taken so long from the initial findings to now?

Because there had to be tests and all had to be done from strict procedures to avoid challenges later. Else the orders and the church could deny.

When the Tuam home news first broke, they said the commission would take three years. Has been two now. And now they will widen the scope to all homes in the country.

Read the jumbled and grossly inaccurate post by Snickers man to see why strict procedure has to be followed which takes time.

All is being done correctly and professionally now. Out of the hands of the Church .

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 05:43AM

Cdosrun wrote: »

I'v no idea about Nazis but having spent years in a home run by nuns.........

Btw the good ones never stayed around for long only the bad ones.

1933 Blue shirts Fascism Fine Gael Fascist Root Irish Nazi group.:eek: this aroud the same time what was going on in Tuam in Galway

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:46AM

valoren wrote: »

Agreed.

I've always believed that reputation is everything. It means more than power, of controlling people. More than money, by accruing vast sums after vows of poverty, using children and babies as commodities for adoptions.

Seeing that the Bons Secours Sisters are very adept at employing sociopathic PR representation to weasel out of responsibility and accountability indicates that they are fully aware of the dangers of having their reputation damaged. It is the very reason PR itself exists.

While those individuals who are ultimately responsible may be dead, the orders they represented, who operated under a framework of neglect and abuse, can still be held accountable and have their reputations irretrievably damaged in our society.

Maybe you do not understand the Vow Of Poverty..an order can own millions as they all do but each individual member can own nothing, not even the habit she wears.

And yes, orders are still accountable. And thy are all dying out anyway nw;average age is well over 80 and rising..soon all be gone.

Even the Poor Clares who did no wrong

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:48AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.

Please reread the article. It is a septic tank. Originally found by small boys.

No lies.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:51AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

completely bonkers

Not in their care as the homes were. What caused the delay in finding the abuse scandals was that the system was schizo. If a child was at a day school, they got a wonderful education etc but down the road in the orphanage?

As long as a child lives at home they are safe from abuse.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:52AM

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.

I ask again; WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERS OF thE BABIES? In many cases this was rape.

IvyTheTerrible · 04-03-2017 05:53AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Not in their care as the homes were. What caused the delay in finding the abuse scandals was that the system was schizo. If a child was at a day school, they got a wonderful education etc but down the road in the orphanage?

As long as a child lives at home they are safe from abuse.

Eh, most child abuse happens in the home by someone the child knows.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:54AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Sorry for what happened to your mother but.its the state who did this.

Nope. The Church ran Ireland ... totally.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:55AM

Donal55 wrote: »

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

They were powerless against the Church. Read Ryan and Murphy reports. Please do.

The Church WAS ireland.

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 05:56AM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Eh, most child abuse happens in the home by someone the child knows.

Can You show the Conviction rate on the Garda web Site I just looked and I can not find this? evidence and proof of this all I can see is A lot of people saying this in Ireland sumthing not right here.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 05:58AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

That is some denial you are in.. reread the findings, where the remains were found.. wastewater/septic tank system .. truth

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 06:00AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Nope. The Church ran Ireland ... totally.

But sum of the Victims had to have gone to the Gardai years ago? when did this this all come out what year ?

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:03AM

Parchment wrote: »

The state allowed it but the church caused it with all their fear mongering and shaming of people.

I hope all those with their ashes on their foreheads this week can truely believe in such an organization.

They do and they have that right. Jesus is not the Church nor the Church Jesus. My faith is in Jesus Christ above and beyond the earthly Church

No I did not get Ashed. I have learned too much about the Church.

But I also know many deeply faithful people of great worth and sincerity and they are hurting badly too. As I am.

Believe me on that and respect us. Else?

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:07AM

neonsofa wrote: »

So sad but I can't agree it is still the same.

It is and being in denial of that?

If it were not then all this would have been made public decades ago .. the Orders still have not even paid the abuse victims

had they changed that would have been done.

There is no penitence, only grief that they got caught. Never has been any penitence. The orders have gone on feathering their nests, building their luxury retirement homes. Boasting of all they did for Ireland.

It is the same and worse.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:11AM

kbannon wrote: »

I can recall being in the CICA offices and discussing this very thing with them.

The religious orders (and more so with the nuns) had a habit of renaming their staff. At one point a convent could have coincidentally had a few Sr. Assumptas or whatever. Not for malicious reasons but in hindsight proved burdensome as it made tracking them down very difficult by all accounts.

Not true. The religious name is always recorded alongside the legal name.That is Canon Law. And state law.

Every Sister takes on a religious name on Clothing. So there are two names. Nothing changes on eg their birth certificate which is retained by the Order.

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:15AM

kbannon wrote: »

Now that's just being daft.
There's absolutely no evidence that anyone was murdered in Tuam so stop making stuff up!

Note: as much as I loathe the institution, I'd prefer a mature and honest debate.

Not totally daft. The babies who were to be sold were planned to be sold before birth. So that their background and parentage were sound.

And these babies were well nourished and well cared for. Of course :rolleyes:

Death by negligence? What penalties for a parent who lets his child starve to death or dies through lack of medical care?

In Canada the irish Sisters injected babies to kill them. They have a Commission there;

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:20AM

Neyite wrote: »

The church are pretty hot about baptising so it would be a priority to get a baby baptised as soon as possible after birth. Anyone (don't even have to be a Catholic) can baptise a baby in an emergency and it will be seen as valid in the eyes of the church. I was baptised minutes after birth. You are even permitted to baptise in utero if the holy water can actually land on the baby -for example, during a c-section. That's how keen the RCC with regard to the sacrament of baptism.

I highly doubt that the nuns would have looked after unbaptised children. These children would have had morning prayers, those that could, went to a local catholic school, said prayers there, would have prepared for first confession and first holy communion along with other classmates.

So there is a high chance that many buried there unless stillborn, would have a baptismal cert.

Already am looking into that and will post later. May be that the illegitimacy trumped the other idea? Will find out.

And we are talking here re under fives. And not sure either re their attending school; certainly kids in the industrial schools did not merge until near the end of that system.

Any baptised baby should be buried in consecrated ground in Canon Law.

whisky_galore · 04-03-2017 06:24AM

Graces7 wrote: »

They were powerless against the Church. Read Ryan and Murphy reports. Please do.

The Church WAS ireland.

The Unionists were dead right about one thing, Home Rule WAS Rome Rule.

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 06:25AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Nope. The Church ran Ireland ... totally.

Eamon de valera was in power when sum of this was going on in Ireland.

Electric Sheep · 04-03-2017 06:32AM

Graces7 wrote: »

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.

I ask again; WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERS OF thE BABIES? In many cases this was rape.

But in most it probably wasn't rape. The punishment was for female sexual activity, just as the forced birth brigade want it to stay now.

whisky_galore · 04-03-2017 06:33AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Eamon de valera was in power when sum of this was going on in Ireland.

Yes...a convenient baddie. Might I remind you that the church enjoyed the support of pretty much all mainstream political parties here? And the majority of the population were quite happy with the status quo. Don't think for one second that FG wasn't cosying up to it and trying not to offend it.

Just think for one second...do you think an anti church party could have made any headway in 1950s Ireland?

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:41AM

Not sure if you know how much of a stain ill egitimacy was

No illegitimate man was allowed to be a priest and no illegitimate woman was allowed into a religious order.

They were said to carry the stain of sin

Modern Orders tried to commute that into saying that they would be less stable coming from that background

That Canon Law stood until 1982

It was the same in all the churches. I have seen birth certs where the minister has scrawled BASTARD or OUT OF WEDLOCK across the page

So this was so then

Graces7 · 04-03-2017 06:43AM

kylith wrote: »

It was a Magdalen laundry. Pregnant unmarried women were forced to go there. Once born the children were removed from their mothers (who often did not want to give them up) and either sold abroad or raised in workhouse conditions.

Some of the children would also have been orphans or given up by parents who could not look after them for various reasons (poverty, death of the other parent).

This was done for reasons on 'religion' and 'morality'.

Tuam was not a Magdalen

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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