#The FairWay - Identifying Cheats.

Donal55 · 02-03-2017 11:21PM #1

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

Montgolfier · 02-03-2017 11:38PM

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Donal55 · 02-03-2017 11:46PM

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Agreed. I was thinking about this the other day and in conjunction with the hcapping software perhaps something could be done.

The CHR system which is currently in place allows hcap committees identify players who perhaps require a hcap upward adjustment aftee 7 .1s have accrued.

Perhaps the software developers cut put in a fix where bandits who walk off or NR after perhaps 3, 5 or 7 rounds are also identified and the competition or hcap committees could attempt to address the issue as it occurs, rather than waiting for AHR.

WHIP IT! · 03-03-2017 06:58AM

Donal55 wrote:

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Do we? In 12 years of golf club membership at three different clubs I don't think I've ever had a playing partner walk in... well, one old guy quit after 9 on a baking hot day cos he was about to keel over. Other than that...

Russman · 03-03-2017 07:50AM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Do we? In 12 years of golf club membership at three different clubs I don't think I've ever had a playing partner walk in... well, one old guy quit after 9 on a baking hot day cos he was about to keel over. Other than that...

Now there's no need for a bit of sense in a thread about handicap cheats !!

Op, how would you tell the difference between someone who walks in because he wants 0.1 and someone who walks in because he's 10 shots worse than his handicap, he's hitting it sideways, they're having to wait 5 mins on every tee box because the tosser in the group ahead has his "routine", it's raining and the 15th tee box is right here beside the clubhouse ?

Surely there has to be a better way of identifying a handicap cheat than "someone who walks in early". I can assure you any genuine handicap cheat will be much more subtle and won't be drawing attention to themselves by consistently walking in.

I know we've cut a few "early leavers" in the annual review but it's been justified by saying "had you stayed out and played the last 3,4,5 holes, you might have made the buffer..."
To be fair the guys in question are no more handicap cheats than the man on the moon, but it was to make a point really. You came in 4 times last year, so you're cut 0.4. I'd imagine a course with a tee box late in the round close to the clubhouse sees a lot of early leavers on any given Saturday in Irish weather.

Russman · 03-03-2017 08:00AM

Donal55 wrote: »

Agreed. I was thinking about this the other day and in conjunction with the hcapping software perhaps something could be done.

The CHR system which is currently in place allows hcap committees identify players who perhaps require a hcap upward adjustment aftee 7 .1s have accrued.

Perhaps the software developers cut put in a fix where bandits who walk off or NR after perhaps 3, 5 or 7 rounds are also identified and the competition or hcap committees could attempt to address the issue as it occurs, rather than waiting for AHR.

But in a club with mostly stableford competitions, someone could have no score on the last 3 holes and not have walked in, how could the software tell ?

dan_ep82 · 03-03-2017 08:09AM

Would it not be better to not add .1 every NR, instead make returning a card mandatory (1 week ban unless emergency) with a review every few games?

There will always be those who will cheat (although not as many as is believed I think) but it could be made harder to do so at least.

I think the easier way to cheat would be to go out with your mate every comp and have them sign your card a few shots better or worse, or overlook that top you just had etc.

The major comps should have a lottery to get your playing partners. You would play with new members, maybe make new friends and cut out the questions after two lads go out and shoot a great score together.

Senecio · 03-03-2017 08:12AM

I walked in a few weeks back. It started snowing on the 11th hole. I'd hate to think that would be a black mark? I still submitted my card with a withdrawn comment.

Handicap cheating will always be an emotive and controversial topic. However I believe it is blown out of proportion by many people. I've played golf for 30yrs, been a member of 4 clubs in 3 countries and I've never met anyone that I was suspicious of. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm not convinced it's as prevalent as some people make it out to be.

Russman · 03-03-2017 09:25AM

Senecio wrote: »

I walked in a few weeks back. It started snowing on the 11th hole. I'd hate to think that would be a black mark? I still submitted my card with a withdrawn comment.

Handicap cheating will always be an emotive and controversial topic. However I believe it is blown out of proportion by many people. I've played golf for 30yrs, been a member of 4 clubs in 3 countries and I've never met anyone that I was suspicious of. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm not convinced it's as prevalent as some people make it out to be.

Couldn't agree more.

And as someone who does the cards at weekends, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, generally once they're sorted into classes and score order, any card that isn't a winning score is completely ignored whether there are 18 or 12 holes marked on it.

Hoof Hearted2 · 03-03-2017 10:01AM

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

From what I understand the initiative isn't solely about identifying HC cheats.
I think it's widely known who they are and what they are about.

This initiative is about changing the culture that allows it to be somewhat acceptable, and no one is under any illusions that that will take a long time and this is a good first step on that long road.

I believe it also understood that those who are HC cheats aren't likely to change any time soon, but with he help of this initiative hopefully they will become a dying bred, albeit one that just won't die quick enough.
Also new players coming to the game will hopefully have a clear understanding of what their responsibilities are regarding their HC.

Jawgap · 03-03-2017 10:14AM

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

I don't know about that. I've been a member of clubs here, the UK and the US, and the problem we have here is similar to England.

The EGU recently activated rule requiring all scores, even non-qualifying ones to be returned to the golfer's home club.

It seems to be very pernicious in Ireland and the UK, whereas in the US I found cheating to be quite blatant and acceptable......practices here that would get you lynched were just seen as part of the game, including mulligans, improving your lie, relocating the ball, gimmes (actually "takies"

) that Tom Watson would struggle to knock in etc. Although at least where I was there didn't seem to be as much competitive golf as we have here - maybe 1 comp a week.

Personally, I've always believe the true mark of a golfer is their handicap, not trashy (or less trashy) bits of crystal, vouchers won etc - why play the game if you are not going to try your best?

Donal55 · 03-03-2017 11:18AM

Jaysus Russ you've changed your mind. I googled 'the effect NRs have on CSs' and I was given a link here to boards, on this very forum, and where you stated in 2013 that in YOUR club after a unscientific survey carried out by yourself approx 20% to 25% of competition entries were NRd.
Furthermore you also concurred that it could have an effect on CSS.
Which is exactly why the GUI are highlighting this problem.
Now I cant attach links at present and dont wish to go into a he said, she said, but obviously there is an issue and this awareness campaign is trying to address it.

Russman · 03-03-2017 11:41AM

Donal55 wrote: »

Jaysus Russ you've changed your mind. I googled 'the effect NRs have on CSs' and I was given a link here to boards, on this very forum, and where you stated in 2013 that in YOUR club after a unscientific survey carried out by yourself approx 20% to 25% of competition entries were NRd.
Furthermore you also concurred that it could have an effect on CSS.
Which is exactly why the GUI are highlighting this problem.
Now I cant attach links at present and dont wish to go into a he said, she said, but obviously there is an issue and this awareness campaign is trying to address it.

I haven't changed my mind at all, I don't see how you get to that ? Although there's nothing wrong with changing ones opinion.

Yes, I compared the competition book to the computer printout on a few random dates and there was a big discrepancy in entries vs returns. IIRC at no point did I or would I suggest they're handicap cheats though. Not returning cards is a problem for any club. Anytime I've come in early or anyone I know comes in early, the card is signed and returned, it might be recorded as an NR in strokeplay but its still returned. The problem we had/have is cards & scores not being returned at all, not NRs being returned.

Ollieboy · 03-03-2017 11:57AM

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

Russman · 03-03-2017 12:15PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

What reason did you give them ?
By signing their card all your doing is attesting to their score, by not signing it are you not effectively saying the score on the card isn't what they had ?

Jawgap · 03-03-2017 12:36PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

i don't see how you could refuse to sign the card - if the score was factually correct and accurate that's what your signing for. Personally, I'd leave it to the committee to sort through issues around not trying in previous comps where this allowed the person to build the handicap to the point where the nett becomes a winner.

Aren't you just simply signing to say that the number of strokes recorded on each hole is correct? - the committee is responsible for adding the strokes for each hole and applying the requisite handicap.

benny79 · 03-03-2017 12:47PM

Russman wrote: »

What reason did you give them ?
By signing their card all your doing is attesting to their score, by not signing it are you not effectively saying the score on the card isn't what they had ?

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle

) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

Jawgap · 03-03-2017 01:18PM

benny79 wrote: »

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle ) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

I've had that a couple of times when I've put a decent run of holes together (including when playing with people from the club hierarchy)......and I know it's good natured and just having "the bants" but I always tell playing partners that I will in no way be offended if they report my good play and I get a cut under the General Play provisions!

Senecio · 03-03-2017 01:49PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

Refusing to sign someone's card to attest to a factual round is poor form. The only reason for not signing a card is there is a disagreement between and the player wrt. a score on any particular hole. Where it should be referred to the committee is agreement can't be reached who will normally side with the player.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with this notion that every high handicapper who shoots a good score is automatically branded a bandit. It speaks to a lack of understanding of amateur golf and the handicapping system. Every high handicapper has a potential 43+ pt round in them and it's usually preceded by and followed by a string of 0.1's. That's just how they play the game.

HighLine · 03-03-2017 02:50PM

Agree with the above. You want a good indication as to players who might be roping things... look back on results over the years. You will usually see a trend of guys who do sweet fook all during the qualifying period but as soon as non-qualifying winter competitions come along... it's usually the same heads who miraculously play better during the winter and get a nice collection of vouchers to keep them warm.

mike12 · 03-03-2017 03:25PM

Think they assume if we saw someone cheating, we would report it.
I think this is to hilight that handicap manipulation is cheating.
Any of us that play the ACC or the likes seem to come up against players from clubs who do really well in this type of event.
100% I don't think they are recording incorrect scores or finding balls in the rough.
I talked to one of the guys on the winning team last year and was really disappointed with his 33 points in enniscrone is horrible conditions.

They all seemed to think 36 points was a normal score.
Not sure if it's nr in their club or what causes this, maybe they are too busy playing inter club and team event's to play much singles.

Ollieboy · 03-03-2017 03:28PM

Senecio wrote: »

Refusing to sign someone's card to attest to a factual round is poor form. The only reason for not signing a card is there is a disagreement between and the player wrt. a score on any particular hole. Where it should be referred to the committee is agreement can't be reached who will normally side with the player.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with this notion that every high handicapper who shoots a good score is automatically branded a bandit. It speaks to a lack of understanding of amateur golf and the handicapping system. Every high handicapper has a potential 43+ pt round in them and it's usually preceded by and followed by a string of 0.1's. That's just how they play the game.

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Tom.D.BJJ · 03-03-2017 03:46PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Is he still a member, because if not you basically drove that person out of the club? We all have good days where the putts drop, and we have far more bad days, but it's just a game and doesnt need the cockish behaviour you and your partners displayed on that day.

Ronney · 03-03-2017 03:47PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Bandit 11 h/c shoots 12 under nett ...playing partners refuse to sign card....handicap not cut as a result.....Bandit wins (even gets a .1 back too!)

Russman · 03-03-2017 03:49PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

I can 100% agree with your sentiment and also the frustration we all feel when a "known" person is "at it" so to speak. The example you give seems blatant.
The problem is that its so hard to prove intent. As handicap amateurs we're, almost by definition, very inconsistent, especially given the nature of golf, and how do you tell whether its joe blogs bandit or joe blogs having a good day ?
Likewise how do you tell whether its a guy dropping a few shots late on in his round so as not to get cut, or a guy who was going well suddenly saw the winning post and felt the pressure and tightened up ? Pretty impossible I'd suggest. The best players in the world can have a bad back nine when the heat is on, surely a 15 handicap can too.

I think its terrible for a golfer (at any level) to shoot a once off score and think there are being things insinuated about him/her.

I think as the guy in the GUI mentioned in the podcast, there's not really a whole lot can be done, ruleswise. It'll have to be a slow and painful changing of attitude/culture over a generation of golfers to get rid of the "cute hoor" mentality.

Hoof Hearted2 · 03-03-2017 04:04PM

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Yes there is and it couldn't be clearer, it's the players own responsibility to ensure he is trying his best, it's not his playing partners responsibility, it has nothing to do with you.

thelostboys23 · 03-03-2017 04:12PM

benny79 wrote: »

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle ) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

Ive had similar also was standing on the 5th tee in a medal at one under par and partners said was playing great for such a high handicap and proceeded to have a 10 on the par 4 fifth(four shots to get out of the damn bunker ). Handicap is 20 and get my share of pars in a round but always have a disaster for 3 or 4 holes.

Ollieboy · 03-03-2017 06:20PM

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Is he still a member, because if not you basically drove that person out of the club? We all have good days where the putts drop, and we have far more bad days, but it's just a game and doesnt need the cockish behaviour you and your partners displayed on that day.

I didn't say I was proud of my actions but to be honest, I don't want to be a member in a club with people like that and it was is 3rd club in about 5 years so good luck to him. And it was far from a one day wonder for this player. Personally I think his reaction on the day explains a lot more. I am surprised how you bash me and stand up for him!

It's funny, I react badly to a cheat and look at the reaction I get! If I cheated people would say nothing. After reading the comments in this thread the bandits will always be welcome to golf in Ireland.

Russman · 03-03-2017 06:47PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

If I cheated people would say nothing. After reading the comments in this thread the bandits will always be welcome to golf in Ireland.

I don't think that's true, but if you think about it, where would we be if you had members calling out other members that play well, based on nothing more than a suspicion or a feeling ? It's not a huge leap from there to good old fashioned irish begrudgery. We'd be one step away from mob rule on the golf course.

I don't doubt your example, I'm sure there are one or two of them in most clubs, but for me, intent is key to someone being a handicap cheat, and that's all but impossible to prove. It's just such a grey area I can't see how rules can deal with it fairly.

username?! · 03-03-2017 06:49PM

Bit off / on topic here. I am new to the game here and yet to get my handicap, currently working on my 3 cards.

I don't know if you are talking about competitions only but should you hand in your card for any game you play at your club (Once you have a handicap) either in friendly game or competition?

Montgolfier · 03-03-2017 07:21PM

Get rid of stableford play stroke if you walk in early disqualification simple. No .1 back. I firmly believe stableford is the cause of 90% of these problems.

#The FairWay - Identifying Cheats.

Comments