#The FairWay - Identifying Cheats.

Donal55

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

Montgolfier

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Donal55

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Agreed. I was thinking about this the other day and in conjunction with the hcapping software perhaps something could be done.

The CHR system which is currently in place allows hcap committees identify players who perhaps require a hcap upward adjustment aftee 7 .1s have accrued.

Perhaps the software developers cut put in a fix where bandits who walk off or NR after perhaps 3, 5 or 7 rounds are also identified and the competition or hcap committees could attempt to address the issue as it occurs, rather than waiting for AHR.

WHIP IT!

Donal55 wrote:

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Do we? In 12 years of golf club membership at three different clubs I don't think I've ever had a playing partner walk in... well, one old guy quit after 9 on a baking hot day cos he was about to keel over. Other than that...

Russman

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Do we? In 12 years of golf club membership at three different clubs I don't think I've ever had a playing partner walk in... well, one old guy quit after 9 on a baking hot day cos he was about to keel over. Other than that...

Now there's no need for a bit of sense in a thread about handicap cheats !!

Op, how would you tell the difference between someone who walks in because he wants 0.1 and someone who walks in because he's 10 shots worse than his handicap, he's hitting it sideways, they're having to wait 5 mins on every tee box because the tosser in the group ahead has his "routine", it's raining and the 15th tee box is right here beside the clubhouse ?

Surely there has to be a better way of identifying a handicap cheat than "someone who walks in early". I can assure you any genuine handicap cheat will be much more subtle and won't be drawing attention to themselves by consistently walking in.

I know we've cut a few "early leavers" in the annual review but it's been justified by saying "had you stayed out and played the last 3,4,5 holes, you might have made the buffer..."
To be fair the guys in question are no more handicap cheats than the man on the moon, but it was to make a point really. You came in 4 times last year, so you're cut 0.4. I'd imagine a course with a tee box late in the round close to the clubhouse sees a lot of early leavers on any given Saturday in Irish weather.

Russman

Donal55 wrote: »

Agreed. I was thinking about this the other day and in conjunction with the hcapping software perhaps something could be done.

The CHR system which is currently in place allows hcap committees identify players who perhaps require a hcap upward adjustment aftee 7 .1s have accrued.

Perhaps the software developers cut put in a fix where bandits who walk off or NR after perhaps 3, 5 or 7 rounds are also identified and the competition or hcap committees could attempt to address the issue as it occurs, rather than waiting for AHR.

But in a club with mostly stableford competitions, someone could have no score on the last 3 holes and not have walked in, how could the software tell ?

dan_ep82

Would it not be better to not add .1 every NR, instead make returning a card mandatory (1 week ban unless emergency) with a review every few games?

There will always be those who will cheat (although not as many as is believed I think) but it could be made harder to do so at least.

I think the easier way to cheat would be to go out with your mate every comp and have them sign your card a few shots better or worse, or overlook that top you just had etc.

The major comps should have a lottery to get your playing partners. You would play with new members, maybe make new friends and cut out the questions after two lads go out and shoot a great score together.

Senecio

I walked in a few weeks back. It started snowing on the 11th hole. I'd hate to think that would be a black mark? I still submitted my card with a withdrawn comment.

Handicap cheating will always be an emotive and controversial topic. However I believe it is blown out of proportion by many people. I've played golf for 30yrs, been a member of 4 clubs in 3 countries and I've never met anyone that I was suspicious of. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm not convinced it's as prevalent as some people make it out to be.

Russman

Senecio wrote: »

I walked in a few weeks back. It started snowing on the 11th hole. I'd hate to think that would be a black mark? I still submitted my card with a withdrawn comment.

Handicap cheating will always be an emotive and controversial topic. However I believe it is blown out of proportion by many people. I've played golf for 30yrs, been a member of 4 clubs in 3 countries and I've never met anyone that I was suspicious of. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm not convinced it's as prevalent as some people make it out to be.

Couldn't agree more.

And as someone who does the cards at weekends, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, generally once they're sorted into classes and score order, any card that isn't a winning score is completely ignored whether there are 18 or 12 holes marked on it.

Hoof Hearted2

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

From what I understand the initiative isn't solely about identifying HC cheats.
I think it's widely known who they are and what they are about.

This initiative is about changing the culture that allows it to be somewhat acceptable, and no one is under any illusions that that will take a long time and this is a good first step on that long road.

I believe it also understood that those who are HC cheats aren't likely to change any time soon, but with he help of this initiative hopefully they will become a dying bred, albeit one that just won't die quick enough.
Also new players coming to the game will hopefully have a clear understanding of what their responsibilities are regarding their HC.

Jawgap

Donal55 wrote: »

New awareness initiative from the GUI & ILGU on Golfnet identifying and defining handicap cheating.

It basically describes a cheat as 'someone who goes out with the intention of getting a .1 back', or 'not trying your best at any time in the round with the aim of manipulating their handicap.'

I personally welcome this attempt to try and clean up a problem which appears to be soley inherent to Ireland, however I do feel it will probably fall on deaf ears. I think all of us knw at least 3 or 4 bandits who go out week in / week out and after a few holes walk off the course. I've no problem with lads and lassies who feel unwell or have an emergency at home but habitual cowboys need to be dealt with.

Although this initiative highlights the problem I don't think it will have an impact unfortunately.

I don't know about that. I've been a member of clubs here, the UK and the US, and the problem we have here is similar to England.

The EGU recently activated rule requiring all scores, even non-qualifying ones to be returned to the golfer's home club.

It seems to be very pernicious in Ireland and the UK, whereas in the US I found cheating to be quite blatant and acceptable......practices here that would get you lynched were just seen as part of the game, including mulligans, improving your lie, relocating the ball, gimmes (actually "takies" ) that Tom Watson would struggle to knock in etc. Although at least where I was there didn't seem to be as much competitive golf as we have here - maybe 1 comp a week.

Personally, I've always believe the true mark of a golfer is their handicap, not trashy (or less trashy) bits of crystal, vouchers won etc - why play the game if you are not going to try your best?

Donal55

Jaysus Russ you've changed your mind. I googled 'the effect NRs have on CSs' and I was given a link here to boards, on this very forum, and where you stated in 2013 that in YOUR club after a unscientific survey carried out by yourself approx 20% to 25% of competition entries were NRd.
Furthermore you also concurred that it could have an effect on CSS.
Which is exactly why the GUI are highlighting this problem.
Now I cant attach links at present and dont wish to go into a he said, she said, but obviously there is an issue and this awareness campaign is trying to address it.

Russman

Donal55 wrote: »

Jaysus Russ you've changed your mind. I googled 'the effect NRs have on CSs' and I was given a link here to boards, on this very forum, and where you stated in 2013 that in YOUR club after a unscientific survey carried out by yourself approx 20% to 25% of competition entries were NRd.
Furthermore you also concurred that it could have an effect on CSS.
Which is exactly why the GUI are highlighting this problem.
Now I cant attach links at present and dont wish to go into a he said, she said, but obviously there is an issue and this awareness campaign is trying to address it.

I haven't changed my mind at all, I don't see how you get to that ? Although there's nothing wrong with changing ones opinion.

Yes, I compared the competition book to the computer printout on a few random dates and there was a big discrepancy in entries vs returns. IIRC at no point did I or would I suggest they're handicap cheats though. Not returning cards is a problem for any club. Anytime I've come in early or anyone I know comes in early, the card is signed and returned, it might be recorded as an NR in strokeplay but its still returned. The problem we had/have is cards & scores not being returned at all, not NRs being returned.

Ollieboy

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

Russman

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

What reason did you give them ?
By signing their card all your doing is attesting to their score, by not signing it are you not effectively saying the score on the card isn't what they had ?

Jawgap

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

i don't see how you could refuse to sign the card - if the score was factually correct and accurate that's what your signing for. Personally, I'd leave it to the committee to sort through issues around not trying in previous comps where this allowed the person to build the handicap to the point where the nett becomes a winner.

Aren't you just simply signing to say that the number of strokes recorded on each hole is correct? - the committee is responsible for adding the strokes for each hole and applying the requisite handicap.

benny79

Russman wrote: »

What reason did you give them ?
By signing their card all your doing is attesting to their score, by not signing it are you not effectively saying the score on the card isn't what they had ?

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle ) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

Jawgap

benny79 wrote: »

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle ) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

I've had that a couple of times when I've put a decent run of holes together (including when playing with people from the club hierarchy)......and I know it's good natured and just having "the bants" but I always tell playing partners that I will in no way be offended if they report my good play and I get a cut under the General Play provisions!

Senecio

Ollieboy wrote: »

You can just refuse to sign there card at the end of the round and say nothing, I have done this during Captains day when a high h/cap shot a amazing round and played like a single figure player and it was more then just playing well on the day.

Refusing to sign someone's card to attest to a factual round is poor form. The only reason for not signing a card is there is a disagreement between and the player wrt. a score on any particular hole. Where it should be referred to the committee is agreement can't be reached who will normally side with the player.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with this notion that every high handicapper who shoots a good score is automatically branded a bandit. It speaks to a lack of understanding of amateur golf and the handicapping system. Every high handicapper has a potential 43+ pt round in them and it's usually preceded by and followed by a string of 0.1's. That's just how they play the game.

HighLine

Agree with the above. You want a good indication as to players who might be roping things... look back on results over the years. You will usually see a trend of guys who do sweet fook all during the qualifying period but as soon as non-qualifying winter competitions come along... it's usually the same heads who miraculously play better during the winter and get a nice collection of vouchers to keep them warm.

mike12

Think they assume if we saw someone cheating, we would report it.
I think this is to hilight that handicap manipulation is cheating.
Any of us that play the ACC or the likes seem to come up against players from clubs who do really well in this type of event.
100% I don't think they are recording incorrect scores or finding balls in the rough.
I talked to one of the guys on the winning team last year and was really disappointed with his 33 points in enniscrone is horrible conditions.

They all seemed to think 36 points was a normal score.
Not sure if it's nr in their club or what causes this, maybe they are too busy playing inter club and team event's to play much singles.

Ollieboy

Senecio wrote: »

Refusing to sign someone's card to attest to a factual round is poor form. The only reason for not signing a card is there is a disagreement between and the player wrt. a score on any particular hole. Where it should be referred to the committee is agreement can't be reached who will normally side with the player.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with this notion that every high handicapper who shoots a good score is automatically branded a bandit. It speaks to a lack of understanding of amateur golf and the handicapping system. Every high handicapper has a potential 43+ pt round in them and it's usually preceded by and followed by a string of 0.1's. That's just how they play the game.

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Tom.D.BJJ

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Is he still a member, because if not you basically drove that person out of the club? We all have good days where the putts drop, and we have far more bad days, but it's just a game and doesnt need the cockish behaviour you and your partners displayed on that day.

Ronney

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

Bandit 11 h/c shoots 12 under nett ...playing partners refuse to sign card....handicap not cut as a result.....Bandit wins (even gets a .1 back too!)

Russman

Ollieboy wrote: »

100% agree, I don't think I would do it now been lot older and wiser but this was unbelievable stuff and he was known for it and the comments started at the car park by other members about him to us. Is final score was 12 under which was 1 under gross. Unbelievable at the time he was only leading by 3 shots after day 1.

So when we got to around the 12 hole the whole group actually turn on him, it was really nasty situation to be honest and I was egg on by the two older guys not to sign. He still played in day 2 and nothing was ever said about it to me. At the 18 there was no handshake by any player in the group with him, everyone just walk away and pass score cards back. He didn't say anything, I think he was relieve there wasn't a row.

He had a great record in 4ball events, team events and non-cutting events, so people were just sick of him and nobody want him to win the big one, so I honestly think I let my emotions get in the way, but I was disgust by the whole thing and it was clear cheating.

If that happen today, I think I would just try to laugh it off but at the time I know there was really bad feelings about this guy and his habits at the club.

But I do find it hard to go to prize givens and applaud the cheaters.

I can 100% agree with your sentiment and also the frustration we all feel when a "known" person is "at it" so to speak. The example you give seems blatant.
The problem is that its so hard to prove intent. As handicap amateurs we're, almost by definition, very inconsistent, especially given the nature of golf, and how do you tell whether its joe blogs bandit or joe blogs having a good day ?
Likewise how do you tell whether its a guy dropping a few shots late on in his round so as not to get cut, or a guy who was going well suddenly saw the winning post and felt the pressure and tightened up ? Pretty impossible I'd suggest. The best players in the world can have a bad back nine when the heat is on, surely a 15 handicap can too.

I think its terrible for a golfer (at any level) to shoot a once off score and think there are being things insinuated about him/her.

I think as the guy in the GUI mentioned in the podcast, there's not really a whole lot can be done, ruleswise. It'll have to be a slow and painful changing of attitude/culture over a generation of golfers to get rid of the "cute hoor" mentality.

Hoof Hearted2

Montgolfier wrote: »

Still no guidelines on how you should tackle the problem. If you tell someone they are not trying their best or worse cheating you could be held liable and sued.

Yes there is and it couldn't be clearer, it's the players own responsibility to ensure he is trying his best, it's not his playing partners responsibility, it has nothing to do with you.

thelostboys23

benny79 wrote: »

I'd also be interested in that?

I'm a high Hcer been told loads of times I should be way lower! (my game is in my head) anyway I was playing in one of our local comp's with 2 mid to low hcer's one week.. I started bogey, par,par, eagle (first and only ever eagle, par 5 index 18) The two lads were like how are you playing off such and such... think I was playin of 20 at time.. joking saying I was a Bandit etc... I put in a good amount of practise and was getting lessons at the time also.. Then I start thinking about "these lads think I'm a bandit" and I fell apart! This happens a lot believe it or not if I get a run of a few good holes... ( I know its in my head)

But that day always sticks in my mine..(mainly because of the Eagle ) As I always have a slow start on my course so in theory I should of had a great day and score and possibly won comp or at least have gotten a good cut!

For the record I have never won a comp at my club in the 5/6 years of being a member best was a second...

Ive had similar also was standing on the 5th tee in a medal at one under par and partners said was playing great for such a high handicap and proceeded to have a 10 on the par 4 fifth(four shots to get out of the damn bunker ). Handicap is 20 and get my share of pars in a round but always have a disaster for 3 or 4 holes.

Ollieboy

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Is he still a member, because if not you basically drove that person out of the club? We all have good days where the putts drop, and we have far more bad days, but it's just a game and doesnt need the cockish behaviour you and your partners displayed on that day.

I didn't say I was proud of my actions but to be honest, I don't want to be a member in a club with people like that and it was is 3rd club in about 5 years so good luck to him. And it was far from a one day wonder for this player. Personally I think his reaction on the day explains a lot more. I am surprised how you bash me and stand up for him!

It's funny, I react badly to a cheat and look at the reaction I get! If I cheated people would say nothing. After reading the comments in this thread the bandits will always be welcome to golf in Ireland.

Russman

Ollieboy wrote: »

If I cheated people would say nothing. After reading the comments in this thread the bandits will always be welcome to golf in Ireland.

I don't think that's true, but if you think about it, where would we be if you had members calling out other members that play well, based on nothing more than a suspicion or a feeling ? It's not a huge leap from there to good old fashioned irish begrudgery. We'd be one step away from mob rule on the golf course.

I don't doubt your example, I'm sure there are one or two of them in most clubs, but for me, intent is key to someone being a handicap cheat, and that's all but impossible to prove. It's just such a grey area I can't see how rules can deal with it fairly.

username?!

Bit off / on topic here. I am new to the game here and yet to get my handicap, currently working on my 3 cards.

I don't know if you are talking about competitions only but should you hand in your card for any game you play at your club (Once you have a handicap) either in friendly game or competition?

Montgolfier

Get rid of stableford play stroke if you walk in early disqualification simple. No .1 back. I firmly believe stableford is the cause of 90% of these problems.

kyleman

The GUI could do a lot more to reward lower handicap golfers. A simple one would be to award prize to lowest hc in the event of scores being equal and have no count back.

princess poppy

kyleman wrote: »

The GUI could do a lot more to reward lower handicap golfers. A simple one would be to award prize to lowest hc in the event of scores being equal and have no count back.

I have always argued that this should be the case

Tom.D.BJJ

Ollieboy wrote: »

I didn't say I was proud of my actions but to be honest, I don't want to be a member in a club with people like that and it was is 3rd club in about 5 years so good luck to him. And it was far from a one day wonder for this player. Personally I think his reaction on the day explains a lot more. I am surprised how you bash me and stand up for him!

It's funny, I react badly to a cheat and look at the reaction I get! If I cheated people would say nothing. After reading the comments in this thread the bandits will always be welcome to golf in Ireland.

Playing the victim now? Its not your call whether to sign his card or not. You and your playing partners could speak to the h/cap secretary and go through the proper channels. You know you only have to get it wrong once before youve tarred someone in the wrong.

What happens of Im playing with you and significantly beat my handicap, would you try to berate me?

mike12

Montgolfier wrote: »

Get rid of stableford play stroke if you walk in early disqualification simple. No .1 back. I firmly believe stableford is the cause of 90% of these problems.

The reason for this is that the real low handicaps would happily do it to avoid a .1.

Senecio

Montgolfier wrote: »

Get rid of stableford play stroke if you walk in early disqualification simple. No .1 back. I firmly believe stableford is the cause of 90% of these problems.

Bad idea. Stroke play should be discouraged at all amateur comps except at the elite level. Golf needs to be enjoyable and that's just not the case when your day's over after 4-5 holes.

Montgolfier

Senecio wrote: »

Bad idea. Stroke play should be discouraged at all amateur comps except at the elite level. Golf needs to be enjoyable and that's just not the case when you're day's over after 4-5 holes.

I was thinking it might encourage guys to play conservative as stableford promotes an agressive style play. It's only promoting guys who are higher hcp also rewarding them in count backs encouraging them to mind their handicap.
I know it's slower format but that's because it's not the norm, a bit of curve ball when you arrive at the course and hear stroke play ahhhh!!

dan_ep82

username?! wrote: »

Bit off / on topic here. I am new to the game here and yet to get my handicap, currently working on my 3 cards.

I don't know if you are talking about competitions only but should you hand in your card for any game you play at your club (Once you have a handicap) either in friendly game or competition?

Comp only.

If you've had a run of good scores you could say it to your hc committee but I'd say they would wait for a comp score

tbayers

I find all this talk of bandits strange. I am playing golf less than a year and practicing my ass off to get better. I am getting close to single figures. I have shot a nett score of -5 twice in non-qualifying competitions in the past two months and my handicap was quickly reduced by 2. Delighted, hard work is paying off and managing to win the odd competition or two.
People talk of guys popping up now again, captains, classics etc and winning them on inflated handicaps. But in order to get 0.1's back dont you have to pay and play in qualifying competitions. Lets say someone is on 10.6 at the start of the year, he will need to enter 9 competitions to gain 9 0.1's. Average competition costs what, 7 euro so thats a cost of 50 plus. Factor in golf balls you need to lose when you play 'badly'. It all starts to add up. And the biggest thing I dont get is why in the name of God would you step up to a tee box and not try and play your best, would it not drive someone mad? And if you have reached your limit of 0.1's what do you do for the other weeks that you cant play in competitions to your full potential? Prizes make people do weird things! Ultimate aim for every golfer is to play off scratch, why doesn't everyone do their best to try and achieve that I will never know.

And last, but not least. Shooting -8 or -10 nett score is crazy. Unless you were out of the game for several weeks and practiced like mad you are not playing to your handicap, its a simple as that.

Hoof Hearted2

tbayers wrote: »

I find all this talk of bandits strange. I am playing golf less than a year and practicing my ass off to get better. I am getting close to single figures. I have shot a nett score of -5 twice in non-qualifying competitions in the past two months and my handicap was quickly reduced by 2. Delighted, hard work is paying off and managing to win the odd competition or two.
People talk of guys popping up now again, captains, classics etc and winning them on inflated handicaps. But in order to get 0.1's back dont you have to pay and play in qualifying competitions. Lets say someone is on 10.6 at the start of the year, he will need to enter 9 competitions to gain 9 0.1's. Average competition costs what, 7 euro so thats a cost of 50 plus. Factor in golf balls you need to lose when you play 'badly'. It all starts to add up. And the biggest thing I dont get is why in the name of God would you step up to a tee box and not try and play your best, would it not drive someone mad? And if you have reached your limit of 0.1's what do you do for the other weeks that you cant play in competitions to your full potential? Prizes make people do weird things! Ultimate aim for every golfer is to play off scratch, why doesn't everyone do their best to try and achieve that I will never know.

And last, but not least. Shooting -8 or -10 nett score is crazy. Unless you were out of the game for several weeks and practiced like mad you are not playing to your handicap, its a simple as that.

The less thought you give to "bandits", (otherwise known as cheats) the better.
Concentrate on and enjoy your own game, that's the recipe for a happy golfing experience.

tbayers

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

tbayers wrote: »

I find all this talk of bandits strange. I am playing golf less than a year and practicing my ass off to get better. I am getting close to single figures. I have shot a nett score of -5 twice in non-qualifying competitions in the past two months and my handicap was quickly reduced by 2. Delighted, hard work is paying off and managing to win the odd competition or two.
People talk of guys popping up now again, captains, classics etc and winning them on inflated handicaps. But in order to get 0.1's back dont you have to pay and play in qualifying competitions. Lets say someone is on 10.6 at the start of the year, he will need to enter 9 competitions to gain 9 0.1's. Average competition costs what, 7 euro so thats a cost of 50 plus. Factor in golf balls you need to lose when you play 'badly'. It all starts to add up. And the biggest thing I dont get is why in the name of God would you step up to a tee box and not try and play your best, would it not drive someone mad? And if you have reached your limit of 0.1's what do you do for the other weeks that you cant play in competitions to your full potential? Prizes make people do weird things! Ultimate aim for every golfer is to play off scratch, why doesn't everyone do their best to try and achieve that I will never know.

And last, but not least. Shooting -8 or -10 nett score is crazy. Unless you were out of the game for several weeks and practiced like mad you are not playing to your handicap, its a simple as that.

The less thought you give to "bandits", (otherwise known as cheats) the better.
Concentrate on and enjoy your own game, that's the recipe for a happy golfing experience.

Couldn't agree more!

FixdePitchmark

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

The less thought you give to "bandits", (otherwise known as cheats) the better.
Concentrate on and enjoy your own game, that's the recipe for a happy golfing experience.

I think this is key. Because if you think about it too much it takes away from your own enjoyment.

But - I'm new enough to golf in clubs and the handicap system , in all other sports if you put the work in and improve you get results. In fairness we all have our time in the sun when improving - and we all get many wins if we reduce quickly , I did that myself so a bit daft to think everyone in the 40s is a bandit.

BUT

Golf is strange in that if you don't put the work in - you just get a more comfortable handicap . It rewards disimprovement with making the game easier by giving you more shots.

I know - I'm suppose to accept that the handicap system is wonderful and all that - but I'm from a very competitive background and philosophically I'm not sure I have made the leap to the equalisation of skill - I know that is a bit out there - but it is very new to me as a sporting idea. You basically have lads of much much higher handicaps talking as if they won , behind the façade , I don't fully get it.

if someone comes in and says I had my best round ever an 88 - a 78 a 75 , I'm far more impressed by that - than 44 pts - 43 pts.

I think true golf is stroke play - fun golf is stableford. But points above are very true - Amateur golf is typically terrible and too slow - stroke play would be a nightmare week in week out.

I know it is 2nd hand knowledge and have only seen bits of it myself - but interclub golf and classics - have brought the GUI and Handicap system into disrepute - at least this is now formally acknowledged.

This idea in some clubs that you need a 43 every week to win - is a bit Irish and there are problems if your club is like that.

If your club has a zero tolerance on handicap cheating - it makes the game more enjoyable for all, you can win week in week out with anything near 40 - but sadly they will be a bit useless interclub.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I

If your club has a zero tolerance on handicap cheating - it makes the game more enjoyable for all, you can win week in week out with anything near 40 - but sadly they will be a bit useless interclub.

Agree with pretty much all you mention Fix, but when you say zero tolerance, what does that mean in real terms ?
I think we're back to the old chestnut of how do you prove someone is a handicap cheat ? I wouldn't go with the idea of players "thinking" or "feeling" or "just knowing" that other players are up to no good as potentially you end up with bar talk being the main criteria in getting a cut (or not).

I'm not for a second defending these guys (I do think they're a tiny minority) but I'm not sure how they can be dealt with other than annual review. Intent is the key ingredient, it's even mentioned in the new GUI definition, and how do you prove that ? For myself I tend to take the view that I shoot what I shoot and get cut or not accordingly, a prize doesn't really bother me in the least.

tbayers

Russman wrote: »

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I

If your club has a zero tolerance on handicap cheating - it makes the game more enjoyable for all, you can win week in week out with anything near 40 - but sadly they will be a bit useless interclub.

Agree with pretty much all you mention Fix, but when you say zero tolerance, what does that mean in real terms ?
I think we're back to the old chestnut of how do you prove someone is a handicap cheat ? I wouldn't go with the idea of players "thinking" or "feeling" or "just knowing" that other players are up to no good as potentially you end up with bar talk being the main criteria in getting a cut (or not).

I'm not for a second defending these guys (I do think they're a tiny minority) but I'm not sure how they can be dealt with other than annual review. Intent is the key ingredient, it's even mentioned in the new GUI definition, and how do you prove that ? For myself I tend to take the view that I shoot what I shoot and get cut or not accordingly, a prize doesn't really bother me in the least.

Surely if someone is shooting a high score when the prestigious prizes are on offer (captains, classics etc) and receiving 0.1's when condidtions are better in regular competitions and some would say easier pin placements and tees is very dodgy? It is not a coincidence that these guys don't win standard run of the mill competitions and if you look at their cards they seem to fall apart in the last two or three holes?? Yet they do the opposite in the more prestigious ones? I don't care what anyone says that is massaging your handicap, ie cheating?

Russman

tbayers wrote: »

Surely if someone is shooting a high score when the prestigious prizes are on offer (captains, classics etc) and receiving 0.1's when condidtions are better in regular competitions and some would say easier pin placements and tees is very dodgy? It is not a coincidence that these guys don't win standard run of the mill competitions and if you look at their cards they seem to fall apart in the last two or three holes?? Yet they do the opposite in the more prestigious ones? I don't care what anyone says that is massaging your handicap, ie cheating?

But someone is going to shoot a winning score in every competition. If you remove every bandit from the field, someone will still have a good round and win, are they a bandit too ? The nature of golf is that we shoot a good score and it's almost invariably followed by a few poor rounds. The handicap system is designed and intended to operate in such a way that a golfer is only supposed to play to their handicap about once every seven rounds. I assume that's also why there's the new review after seven 0.1s. Someone shooting a good score, getting cut and then having a run of bad rounds, probably getting them back close to where they originally were, is performing exactly as the system intends.

tbayers

Russman wrote: »

But someone is going to shoot a winning score in every competition. If you remove every bandit from the field, someone will still have a good round and win, are they a bandit too ? The nature of golf is that we shoot a good score and it's almost invariably followed by a few poor rounds. The handicap system is designed and intended to operate in such a way that a golfer is only supposed to play to their handicap about once every seven rounds. I assume that's also why there's the new review after seven 0.1s. Someone shooting a good score, getting cut and then having a run of bad rounds, probably getting them back close to where they originally were, is performing exactly as the system intends.

That's not my point, my point is that there are some players that perform exceptionally well in the big competitions with big prizes and somehow blow up consistently in other comps with less pressure. That's sport I know but it's hard to take for a lot of people. It's the poor rounds in local qualifiers that ain't a coincidence. Fine line I know

Russman

tbayers wrote: »

That's not my point, my point is that there are some players that perform exceptionally well in the big competitions with big prizes and somehow blow up consistently in other comps with less pressure. That's sport I know but it's hard to take for a lot of people. It's the poor rounds in local qualifiers that ain't a coincidence. Fine line I know

I take your point, but I often wonder if these players are real or is there an element of an urban myth about them ? When I look at the list of winners of our Captains and other big competitions over the last 30 years or so, there's certainly no pattern of regular winners and I can see maybe one guy who I'd consider to be carrying a few shots. Even the guys you hear about who dump shots in the last few holes, I have my doubts about the real extent of that problem. Not saying it doesn't exist of course, but how widespread is it, hmmm, I'm not convinced tbh. I'm not naive enough to think everyone is pure and no one is a bandit, I just think its a bit overstated.

That's before we even consider how different players cope with pressure. I know one guy who never, ever qualifies for the second round of our Captains. He's decent too, off around 14/15, but can't for the life of him gather up the 32pts or so needed to qualify. Its a running annual joke with him by now. I'm sure other guys are the opposite, they can manage to hold it together when the heat is really on. Like the footballer who is great in training all week but sh1t on matchday or the one who trains terribly but almost always performs on a Saturday.

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

Agree with pretty much all you mention Fix, but when you say zero tolerance, what does that mean in real terms ?

Any system that works well typically are self governed by the culture that is present among the group of individuals. The GUI is now saying the system is not working , I congratulate them - but people are saying this for what 5 / 6 years here - and they are acting now , very slow.

Whilst I agree we over talk the problem - there seems to be very different cultures in different clubs , even if a small group is tolerated in a club , it is only human nature that even honest golfers - start creating their own understanding of what the handicap system is about. If the winning score in the club is very high - you suddenly have a different expectation of what you need to be scoring.

I'm lucky that I'm in a club with older members and they all know each other years - they are very open and will talk about slow play openly or someone who has a handicap at the wrong level at present. They feed this back to the handicap secretary and will say it to the individual themselves.

I think the newer way with clubs having members with much shorter life cycles is going to be more difficult. People will not know the golfing history of the person, the real ability , know them well enough to ask how or why they are scoring so well - most of the time there is a good reason, you typically know when a lad has the round of his life when he is known.

Russman - I accept bar talk is not right - but in a system that works well - it is an honest open culture (is that bar talk). The culture concept, seems a bit wishy washy - but the culture in the club is the responsibility of everyone. If we are saying that it is only a very small number of golfers that are a problem - you'd imagine it should be easy to create a culture were abnormal scoring, is talked about openly , is acted upon.

I don't know what you can do about Interclub - amazing stuff going on. A total revamp required here.

An older guy in my club said - we need to seriously reduce the prize aspect in the amateur game.

I'd agree with him - and on the classic stuff with prize funds in the 1000s - I'd ban them. Many are private ventures bringing our amateur game into disrepute.

At least they should be fully qualifying with a limit on individual prizes to 50 euro or less.

The pod cast is good.

https://www.golfnet.ie/HandicapAwareness

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Russman - I accept bar talk is not right - but in a system that works well - it is an honest open culture (is that bar talk). The culture concept, seems a bit wishy washy - but the culture in the club is the responsibility of everyone. If we are saying that it is only a very small number of golfers that are a problem - you'd imagine it should be easy to create a culture were abnormal scoring, is talked about openly , is acted upon.

I don't know what you can do about Interclub - amazing stuff going on. A total revamp required here.

An older guy in my club said - we need to seriously reduce the prize aspect in the amateur game.

The problem with the bar talk is that it can turn into a mechanism for settling personal vendettas. Can volunteer committee members really be objective and correct about someone's ability ?

Totally agree interclub has gone mad in some handicap brackets, especially that competition and geographical area that shall not be mentioned
I was only discussing it with a team manager recently and we were joking that what he really needed was 5 or 6 guys each carrying about 4 or 5 shots on their handicap. Maybe I'm lucky to be in a club where we don't have them and get beaten in the first round in the interclubs most of the time. Is that our handicap sec's real badge of honour and show's he's doing his job ?

Absolutely agree that prizes need to be reduced for classics, team events etc etc.

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

The problem with the bar talk is that it can turn into a mechanism for settling personal vendettas. Can volunteer committee members really be objective and correct about someone's ability ?

Totally agree interclub has gone mad in some handicap brackets, especially that competition and geographical area that shall not be mentioned

Absolutely agree that prizes need to be reduced for classics, team events etc etc.

Yes - and I think the inter-club situation is making maybe a small problem - a big one.

The GUI have been promoting it as almost their flagship - and every dog on the street was laughing at it - then they come out and say if you are not trying on every hole you are cheating - I mean, it is from one extreme to the other.

There is definitely different handicap systems in different parts of the country. (Well is same system) , but there are places that if you don't have over 40 in you - you are at nothing.

The Irish are a bit mad. We like to find holes in systems.

Again - we are probably worry too much about it. But fair play GUI doing something. A bit of a higher profile by GUI lately - they genuinely were a bit too hands off for my liking. They must have serious cash coming in ?

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes - and I think the inter-club situation is making maybe a small problem - a big one.

The Irish are a bit mad. We like to find holes in systems.

They must have serious cash coming in ?

1 Absolutely, and it becomes a case of "if you can't beat them, join them"

2 Definitely, the cute hoor mentality.

3 I'd say the drop off in memberships since the recession has focused minds alright, although I'd imagine the drop off was mainly people's financial circumstances rather than any objection to handicap building.