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Criminal Record for... Finding 20 Quid

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    She doesn't have a criminal record; she got a conditional discharge. This means that unless she offends again within a period fixed by the court (not stated in the Independent report, but usually between 12 months and 3 years) she is treated as never having been convicted.

    It's at the lighter end of the range of sentences for theft, and it reflects the fact that the amount she stole was small, and there was no premeditation.

    But, yeah, you pick up money that doesn't belong to you and take it away, making no effort to find the owner or get the money back to them - that's theft. You don't know whose the money is, but you do know it's not yours.


  • Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Im hoping there is a large part of the story missing from the article otherwise...
    But, yeah, you pick up money that doesn't belong to you and take it away, making no effort to find the owner or get the money back to them - that's theft.

    Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone, do you go round to each person saying is this yours? Lets face it, someone is going to say yes when it isnt theirs. What if the CCTV shows you picking up the money but doesnt show you giving it to the person who said it was theirs? Do you still get a day in court?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    The BBC headline says she was convicted of theft, which was the one I read initially, added to OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Im hoping there is a large part of the story missing from the article otherwise...



    Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone, do you go round to each person saying is this yours? Lets face it, someone is going to say yes when it isnt theirs. What if the CCTV shows you picking up the money but doesnt show you giving it to the person who said it was theirs? Do you still get a day in court?


    Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    She was convicted of theft - she pleaded guilty, in fact - but the sentence imposed, a conditional discharge, is one that avoids her getting a criminal record on account of the conviction (as long as she doesn't offend further).

    So the BBC headline is correct, but the Independent headline is wrong. (No great surprise there!)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,635 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    kneemos wrote: »
    Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.

    I thought there was a precedent set in F Keepers vs L Weepers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,926 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone
    The money was found in a shop. Tracking the owner would be much easier.

    /off to see if anyone left a car in the car park.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Victor wrote: »
    The money was found in a shop. Tracking the owner would be much easier.

    /off to see if anyone left a car in the car park.

    Well, maybe it blew in off the street.


  • Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kneemos wrote: »
    Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate..

    This is the perfect subject for a discussion forum then.

    When you see a 1 cent coin on the street do you post it back to the mint?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    This is the perfect subject for a discussion forum then.

    When you see a 1 cent coin on the street do you post it back to the mint?
    Irrelevant. There's no reason to think that the mint is the true owner of the coin, or can trace the true owner.

    To be convicted of theft, one of the necessary elements that the prosecution has to prove is that you "intended permanently to deprive" the true owner of the property in question. In a theft-by-finding case, they do this by showing that you didn't take the reasonable steps that somebody would take if they wanted to try to find the true owner. What those steps are depends on the circumstances of the finding.

    In this case the money was found in a shop. It's foreseeable that someone who has lost a non-trivial amount in a shop or other commercial premises will go back to shop to ask if anyone has handed it in (and in fact that's exactly what happened in this case) so the reasonable thing for a finder to do is to report the finding to the shop proprietor/manager. In this case, the video evidence showed that the finder simply trousered the money and walked out of the shop. She later denied taking the money, when asked, which is not consistent with an intention to return it to the true owner; it looks more like an attempt to avoid having to return it.

    Finding money in the street is a different matter. If the circumstances suggest the money hasn't been there very long, and there's someone twenty metres further on who has just pulled his phone out of his pocket, you might call to him and ask him if he dropped the money. On the other hand, if the condition of the money suggests that it has been lying in the gutter for hours, and the street is deserted, there's no-one to ask.

    The state won't bring a prosecution unless they expect to get a conviction, and in a theft-by-finding case they won't get a conviction unless they have evidence to show an intent to deprive the true owner. What that evidence might be sufficient is going to depend on the circumstances of the finding. It's easy to think of circumstances where there's basically nothing realistic that you can do to try to trace the true owner, and in those cases you won't be prosecuted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    If you find money in the street there's no way of finding the owner so you might as well keep it. If you pocket money you find in a supermarket you're absolute scum and a thief.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,697 ✭✭✭elefant


    If you find money in the street there's no way of finding the owner so you might as well keep it. If you pocket money you find in a supermarket you're absolute scum and a thief.

    What would you do in such a case, out of curiosity?
    Start asking patrons randomly if they lost any money?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    elefant wrote: »
    What would you do in such a case, out of curiosity?
    Start asking patrons randomly if they lost any money?
    Take the money to the enquiry desk or a staff member. Either leave the money with them or leave them your name and address.

    You could also ask the people immediately around if they have dropped it, if there are any people immediately around.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,697 ✭✭✭elefant


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Take the money to the enquiry desk or a staff member. Either leave the money with them or leave them your name and address.

    You could also ask the people immediately around if they have dropped it, if there are any people immediately around.

    Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm not sure I'd hold out too much hope for that 20 quid finding its way back to its rightful owner...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    elefant wrote: »
    Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm not sure I'd hold out too much hope for that 20 quid finding its way back to its rightful owner...
    The chance is certainly better than if you hang on to it, since in that case the chance is zero.

    In the case giving rise to this prosecution, the true owner of the twenty quid did come back to the shop where he dropped it, and they did undertake a search which revealed that the defendant had taken it. So if she had handed it in, as she ought to have, it seems reasonably likely that the owner would have got it back.

    In other words, "I doubt that my being honest will lead to the owner getting his money back" looks a lot like a rationalisation for my dishonesty, rather than a genuine but frustrated desire on my part to see the owner get his money back.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭Thelomen Toblackai


    Or in other words woman who stole money convicted of theft...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭who the fug


    The reality is, she has a criminal record , when they do a DBS Check it will show up as no "No Live Trace", so in thirty years time she will still be explaining this.

    Modern UK society no longer allows you to make a mistake, of forgive you when you make one.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Inteteresting to look back at my own instances. I found a phone in a nightclub and handed it in.
    I found fifty euro in another nightclub and kept it. I was happy to find it, and didnt think of the person who lost it tbh. Now i feel a bit guilty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    kneemos wrote: »
    Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.

    So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,292 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    kneemos wrote: »
    Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

    It wasn't found on the street though.

    A man took money from an atm in a shop and then dropped the 20, girl came in and picked it up and kept it.

    Man went back to ship to see if it was there and when the owner looked at the cctv the woman was seen picking it up. She didn't attempt to hand it in so the shop owner who recognised her as a regular customer called the.police and they tracked her down.

    She stole the money plain and simple really


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...
    Even if you're right about that, it's not your problem. You're at no loss; it's not your money.

    And, of course, you could be wrong about that. So, again, this doesn't look like frustration of your high-minded desire to return the money to the rightful owner; rather a rationalisation of your desire to keep it. ("If I hand the money in, somebody will surely steal it, so to prevent that I'll steal it myself.")


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    kneemos wrote: »
    Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

    It wasn't found on the street though.

    A man took money from an atm in a shop and then dropped the 20, girl came in and picked it up and kept it.

    Man went back to ship to see if it was there and when the owner looked at the cctv the woman was seen picking it up. She didn't attempt to hand it in so the shop owner who recognised her as a regular customer called the.police and they tracked her down.

    She stole the money plain and simple really
    I wouldn't have thought of it as theft before now, but I'm re-evaluating. Weren't they careless with their money?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I wouldn't have thought of it as theft before now, but I'm re-evaluating. Weren't they careless with their money?
    Possibly; we don't know the circumstances in which the money was lost.

    But even if they were careless, how is that relevant? Nothing about the concept of "theft" suggests that only careful people can be victims of theft.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...


    AFAIK it's yours after a certain period if unclaimed. Beside the point anyway,your responsible for doing the right thing.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    peregrinus I feel that if someone came up and robbed me of twenty euro that is theft, but if I lost twenty euro - I lost it, and I'm not automatically entitled to get it returned.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Regardless of whether it's €20 or €200 if it's not yours and you take without even attempting to find the owner that is technically theft.

    At least hand it in to the nearest shop or check the immediate area to see if someone dropped before taking it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,479 ✭✭✭sonic85


    I've seen people drop money without realising it and I've chased after them and given it back and I've also been given back too much change in shops multiple times and went back with it but if I find something and it's not clear who dropped it or who owns it I'm not going to go to a garda station or chase around asking. Unless it's a wallet or purse


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I know a young lad has just got a job clearing tables in a busy cafe. One hour into his first shift, he found a tenner on the floor. He was scared it was a test of his honesty and immediately gave it up to the manager, who put it in the tip jar that apparently the table clearers don't get a share of, it's just for the kitchen staff and servers (and probably the manager too).

    He will know better next time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Irrelevant. There's no reason to think that the mint is the true owner of the coin, or can trace the true owner.
    Money aint got no owners; only spenders.

    Agreed though. Money on the street I finder's keepers in general. In a shop and it belongs to someone else/the shop.


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