Criminal Record for... Finding 20 Quid

learn_more

Edit: My bad; no criminal record but was convicted of theft.

A woman in England has been convicted of theft for picking up a 20 pound note she found in a shop.

Now I know the moral thing to do would be to find out who lost it and return it to them. But ffs, 20 quid ?

If I picked up a wallet with a wad of notes in it I wouldn't feel good about keeping it, but I wouldn't think twice about keeping a measly 20 quid. I'd just feel it was my lucky day and blow in on something.

And before anyone says it might be someone's last 20 quid then if that's true you'd think they'd be a bit more careful with it : )

How anyone could report a person to the police for such a small sum of money is beyond me. Funny how no one would question the morals of doing that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-39119990

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/woman-nicole-bailey-kept-20-note-one-stop-burton-stoke-on-trent-criminal-record-staff-poketed-a7603576.html

Peregrinus

She doesn't have a criminal record; she got a conditional discharge. This means that unless she offends again within a period fixed by the court (not stated in the Independent report, but usually between 12 months and 3 years) she is treated as never having been convicted.

It's at the lighter end of the range of sentences for theft, and it reflects the fact that the amount she stole was small, and there was no premeditation.

But, yeah, you pick up money that doesn't belong to you and take it away, making no effort to find the owner or get the money back to them - that's theft. You don't know whose the money is, but you do know it's not yours.

Im hoping there is a large part of the story missing from the article otherwise...

But, yeah, you pick up money that doesn't belong to you and take it away, making no effort to find the owner or get the money back to them - that's theft.

Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone, do you go round to each person saying is this yours? Lets face it, someone is going to say yes when it isnt theirs. What if the CCTV shows you picking up the money but doesnt show you giving it to the person who said it was theirs? Do you still get a day in court?

learn_more

The BBC headline says she was convicted of theft, which was the one I read initially, added to OP.

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Im hoping there is a large part of the story missing from the article otherwise...



Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone, do you go round to each person saying is this yours? Lets face it, someone is going to say yes when it isnt theirs. What if the CCTV shows you picking up the money but doesnt show you giving it to the person who said it was theirs? Do you still get a day in court?

Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.

Peregrinus

She was convicted of theft - she pleaded guilty, in fact - but the sentence imposed, a conditional discharge, is one that avoids her getting a criminal record on account of the conviction (as long as she doesn't offend further).

So the BBC headline is correct, but the Independent headline is wrong. (No great surprise there!)

kneemos

Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

PARlance

kneemos wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.

I thought there was a precedent set in F Keepers vs L Weepers?

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone

The money was found in a shop. Tracking the owner would be much easier.

/off to see if anyone left a car in the car park.

learn_more

Victor wrote: »

The money was found in a shop. Tracking the owner would be much easier.

/off to see if anyone left a car in the car park.

Well, maybe it blew in off the street.

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate..

This is the perfect subject for a discussion forum then.

When you see a 1 cent coin on the street do you post it back to the mint?

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the perfect subject for a discussion forum then.

When you see a 1 cent coin on the street do you post it back to the mint?

Irrelevant. There's no reason to think that the mint is the true owner of the coin, or can trace the true owner.

To be convicted of theft, one of the necessary elements that the prosecution has to prove is that you "intended permanently to deprive" the true owner of the property in question. In a theft-by-finding case, they do this by showing that you didn't take the reasonable steps that somebody would take if they wanted to try to find the true owner. What those steps are depends on the circumstances of the finding.

In this case the money was found in a shop. It's foreseeable that someone who has lost a non-trivial amount in a shop or other commercial premises will go back to shop to ask if anyone has handed it in (and in fact that's exactly what happened in this case) so the reasonable thing for a finder to do is to report the finding to the shop proprietor/manager. In this case, the video evidence showed that the finder simply trousered the money and walked out of the shop. She later denied taking the money, when asked, which is not consistent with an intention to return it to the true owner; it looks more like an attempt to avoid having to return it.

Finding money in the street is a different matter. If the circumstances suggest the money hasn't been there very long, and there's someone twenty metres further on who has just pulled his phone out of his pocket, you might call to him and ask him if he dropped the money. On the other hand, if the condition of the money suggests that it has been lying in the gutter for hours, and the street is deserted, there's no-one to ask.

The state won't bring a prosecution unless they expect to get a conviction, and in a theft-by-finding case they won't get a conviction unless they have evidence to show an intent to deprive the true owner. What that evidence might be sufficient is going to depend on the circumstances of the finding. It's easy to think of circumstances where there's basically nothing realistic that you can do to try to trace the true owner, and in those cases you won't be prosecuted.

Irish Guitarist

If you find money in the street there's no way of finding the owner so you might as well keep it. If you pocket money you find in a supermarket you're absolute scum and a thief.

elefant

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

If you find money in the street there's no way of finding the owner so you might as well keep it. If you pocket money you find in a supermarket you're absolute scum and a thief.

What would you do in such a case, out of curiosity?
Start asking patrons randomly if they lost any money?

Peregrinus

elefant wrote: »

What would you do in such a case, out of curiosity?
Start asking patrons randomly if they lost any money?

Take the money to the enquiry desk or a staff member. Either leave the money with them or leave them your name and address.

You could also ask the people immediately around if they have dropped it, if there are any people immediately around.

elefant

Peregrinus wrote: »

Take the money to the enquiry desk or a staff member. Either leave the money with them or leave them your name and address.

You could also ask the people immediately around if they have dropped it, if there are any people immediately around.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm not sure I'd hold out too much hope for that 20 quid finding its way back to its rightful owner...

Peregrinus

elefant wrote: »

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm not sure I'd hold out too much hope for that 20 quid finding its way back to its rightful owner...

The chance is certainly better than if you hang on to it, since in that case the chance is zero.

In the case giving rise to this prosecution, the true owner of the twenty quid did come back to the shop where he dropped it, and they did undertake a search which revealed that the defendant had taken it. So if she had handed it in, as she ought to have, it seems reasonably likely that the owner would have got it back.

In other words, "I doubt that my being honest will lead to the owner getting his money back" looks a lot like a rationalisation for my dishonesty, rather than a genuine but frustrated desire on my part to see the owner get his money back.

Thelomen Toblackai

Or in other words woman who stole money convicted of theft...

who the fug

The reality is, she has a criminal record , when they do a DBS Check it will show up as no "No Live Trace", so in thirty years time she will still be explaining this.

Modern UK society no longer allows you to make a mistake, of forgive you when you make one.

midlandsmissus

Inteteresting to look back at my own instances. I found a phone in a nightclub and handed it in.
I found fifty euro in another nightclub and kept it. I was happy to find it, and didnt think of the person who lost it tbh. Now i feel a bit guilty.

MRnotlob606

kneemos wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you agree,it's not up for debate. Find something that doesn't belong to you it still doesn't belong to you.

So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...

Timberrrrrrrr

kneemos wrote: »

Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

It wasn't found on the street though.

A man took money from an atm in a shop and then dropped the 20, girl came in and picked it up and kept it.

Man went back to ship to see if it was there and when the owner looked at the cctv the woman was seen picking it up. She didn't attempt to hand it in so the shop owner who recognised her as a regular customer called the.police and they tracked her down.

She stole the money plain and simple really

Peregrinus

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...

Even if you're right about that, it's not your problem. You're at no loss; it's not your money.

And, of course, you could be wrong about that. So, again, this doesn't look like frustration of your high-minded desire to return the money to the rightful owner; rather a rationalisation of your desire to keep it. ("If I hand the money in, somebody will surely steal it, so to prevent that I'll steal it myself.")

midlandsmissus

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

kneemos wrote: »

Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

It wasn't found on the street though.

A man took money from an atm in a shop and then dropped the 20, girl came in and picked it up and kept it.

Man went back to ship to see if it was there and when the owner looked at the cctv the woman was seen picking it up. She didn't attempt to hand it in so the shop owner who recognised her as a regular customer called the.police and they tracked her down.

She stole the money plain and simple really

I wouldn't have thought of it as theft before now, but I'm re-evaluating. Weren't they careless with their money?

Peregrinus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought of it as theft before now, but I'm re-evaluating. Weren't they careless with their money?

Possibly; we don't know the circumstances in which the money was lost.

But even if they were careless, how is that relevant? Nothing about the concept of "theft" suggests that only careful people can be victims of theft.

kneemos

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...

AFAIK it's yours after a certain period if unclaimed. Beside the point anyway,your responsible for doing the right thing.

midlandsmissus

peregrinus I feel that if someone came up and robbed me of twenty euro that is theft, but if I lost twenty euro - I lost it, and I'm not automatically entitled to get it returned.

AudreyHepburn

Regardless of whether it's €20 or €200 if it's not yours and you take without even attempting to find the owner that is technically theft.

At least hand it in to the nearest shop or check the immediate area to see if someone dropped before taking it.

sonic85

I've seen people drop money without realising it and I've chased after them and given it back and I've also been given back too much change in shops multiple times and went back with it but if I find something and it's not clear who dropped it or who owns it I'm not going to go to a garda station or chase around asking. Unless it's a wallet or purse

spurious

I know a young lad has just got a job clearing tables in a busy cafe. One hour into his first shift, he found a tenner on the floor. He was scared it was a test of his honesty and immediately gave it up to the manager, who put it in the tip jar that apparently the table clearers don't get a share of, it's just for the kitchen staff and servers (and probably the manager too).

He will know better next time.

Arcade_Tryer

Peregrinus wrote: »

Irrelevant. There's no reason to think that the mint is the true owner of the coin, or can trace the true owner.

Money aint got no owners; only spenders.

Agreed though. Money on the street I finder's keepers in general. In a shop and it belongs to someone else/the shop.

Koptain Liverpool

I once found an envelope containing about 2k in an envelope on the floor of a SPAR.

I handed it in straight away.

Who carries around 2k in cash though? Drug dealers?

Lt Dan

learn_more wrote: »

Edit: My bad; no criminal record but was convicted of theft.

A woman in England has been convicted of theft for picking up a 20 pound note she found in a shop.

Now I know the moral thing to do would be to find out who lost it and return it to them. But ffs, 20 quid ?

If I picked up a wallet with a wad of notes in it I wouldn't feel good about keeping it, but I wouldn't think twice about keeping a measly 20 quid. I'd just feel it was my lucky day and blow in on something.

And before anyone says it might be someone's last 20 quid then if that's true you'd think they'd be a bit more careful with it : )

How anyone could report a person to the police for such a small sum of money is beyond me. Funny how no one would question the morals of doing that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-39119990

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/woman-nicole-bailey-kept-20-note-one-stop-burton-stoke-on-trent-criminal-record-staff-poketed-a7603576.html

The moral is do not steal other people's property. It is irrelevant whether that property is worth 100 quid or 20 quid!:rolleyes:

Thankfully, with your morals all over the shop, we have laws. The law forbids the stealing or conversion of property of another

What if the true owner of the twenty quid came forward. The point is to discourage dishonest people taking that so called measly 20 quid

The book deserved to be thrown at her

Don't touch what is not yours. At least until every effort was made to find the true owner

Lt Dan

Deleted User wrote: »

Im hoping there is a large part of the story missing from the article otherwise...



Not sure I'd agree. You find 20 quid in the street, it could have belonged to anyone, do you go round to each person saying is this yours? Lets face it, someone is going to say yes when it isnt theirs. What if the CCTV shows you picking up the money but doesnt show you giving it to the person who said it was theirs? Do you still get a day in court?

It does not remotely matter one bit what you agree to or not. That is the law and the poster to whom you are responding to is factually and legally correct.

If that person who says yes, and it is not theirs, that is theft on their part.

Wouldn't the police not question the person receiving the money before running to court? But the police bother if there is genuine doubt as it is foreseeable that the CCTV camera might not cover everything?

end of the road

this was a complete waste of everyone's time and money.

Xterminator

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

I once found an envelope containing about 2k in an envelope on the floor of a SPAR....
Who carries around 2k in cash though? Drug dealers?

It could have been a small redundancy payment, or someones last paycheck etc. you did the right thing.

Lt Dan

kneemos wrote: »

Obviously some ****tard who gets off on calling the cops.

Possibly the person who lost the money and saw the theft . Best not approach some people and look for it back themselves. Also if you say someone doing something illegal, why let them get away with it?

Lt Dan

end of the road wrote: »

this was a waste of everyone's time.

No it was not. People who behave like that should be publicly humiliated and punished. What is 5-6 minutes of court time?

Neyite

If you hand in money to the Gardai and nobody claims it after a year, they send it back to you.

I nearly died when I got a letter with the Garda logo. I was convinced I'd picked up penalty points or a summons in that few moments so I was stunned to open it to find cash. I'd handed it in over a year ago and promptly forgot about it.

Another time I saw a fiver on the ground in the queue in Centra. Asked the woman being served did she drop it, and she said yeah. But clearly lying through her teeth. Next time I'll hand it to the shop assistant instead.

Lt Dan

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

So what's your solution if its not up for debate? Hand into the Police? Because they're totally not gonna pocket it...

The person to whom you are responding to, correct pointed out to another person that that person's interpretation is utterly irrelevant, and factual and legally incorrect. That is all that was said by the poster to whom you responded to. Why waste time debating actual facts and the law, especially when one is incorrect on the basics?

Now, if the issue was , is this really right,or is the law an ass, fair enough, then that might be debatable. But that was not the issue, hence the poster saying that it was not up for debate

Lt Dan

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

I once found an envelope containing about 2k in an envelope on the floor of a SPAR.

I handed it in straight away.

Who carries around 2k in cash though? Drug dealers?

2K is nothing! That is just lunch money for some :cool:

People going in and out of bookies might have had a good win. Perhaps some dodgy business provider that is not drug related only accept cash? Perhaps one is coming from the bank after taking the money out of their account? Wages? Redundancy ?

Anyway, well done, you are not going to hell. I hope the true owner got his or her money back - would be a horrible feeling to know that the envelope just slipped out of the pocket. Happened to me once with €500 in it, from my auld fella . Felt like a complete idiot to loosing it, it is what you would expect a child to do .Thankfully , someone decent had handed it and the staff were decent to tell me. (I wanted to throw a few quid for a few pints to the finder but did not know who it was so I offered it to the shop staff who refused it, not allowed apparently)

Arghus

It'll certainly make me think twice about picking up a twenty on the street. Like, I'll still do it, but I'll think about it a bit.

end of the road

Lt Dan wrote: »

No it was not.

it really was. the resources could be used on important things.

Lt Dan wrote: »

What is 5-6 minutes of court time?

a waste of tax payers money and resources.

Graces7

A couple or three years ago, a young woman, the worse for drink/drugs, and needing to get home a fair distance, sought help from the Mercy Sisters in I think Longford ( cannot find the report; maybe someone else can)

They said they would pay her bus fare and drive her to the bus station.

On the way there, the girl stole E20 from Sister's purse.

Sister reported her to the Gardai and pressed charges.

Girl went to jail for three months. Prison record.

We were so angry we wanted to send the girl E20 so show her we were not all like that but could not find how or where.

KERSPLAT!

Graces7 wrote: »

A couple or three years ago, a young woman, the worse for drink/drugs, and needing to get home a fair distance, sought help from the Mercy Sisters in I think Longford ( cannot find the report; maybe someone else can)

They said they would pay her bus fare and drive her to the bus station.

On the way there, the girl stole E20 from Sister's purse.

Sister reported her to the Gardai and pressed charges.

Girl went to jail for three months. Prison record.

We were so angry we wanted to send the girl E20 so show her we were not all like that but could not find how or where.

3 months for €20... would love to see that article...

bodhrandude

The girl in the OP's post she should have told the police to go and fcuk themselves finders keepers and the same to the courts she was in.

Glenster

Its not like she found it floating in a wasteland.

Woman walks into a shop and walks out with £20 that isn't hers = a thief.

Lock her up.

Timberrrrrrrr

bodhrandude wrote: »

The girl in the OP's post she should have told the police to go and fcuk themselves finders keepers and the same to the courts she was in.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/28/woman-who-found-20-on-the-floor-ended-up-with-a-criminal-record-for-pocketing-it-6477942/

Now police have warned people to forget the old ‘finders keepers’ saying it’s a crime to keep money or goods someone else has lost.

Graces7

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

3 months for €20... would love to see that article...

Sorry I could not find it. Will try again; it was on a local news site maybe breakingnews.ie

Lt Dan

bodhrandude wrote: »

The girl in the OP's post she should have told the police to go and fcuk themselves finders keepers and the same to the courts she was in.

Your a very nice person :rolleyes:

Thankfully , the law laughs at your opinion if or when caught

Lt Dan

Glenster wrote: »

Its not like she found it floating in a wasteland.

Woman walks into a shop and walks out with £20 that isn't hers = a thief.

Lock her up.

And take her welfare claims off her.