Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

tomasrojo · 25-02-2017 02:47PM

Bit about Sean O'Rourke's radio spot:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/02/23/forget-cyclists-think-humans-passing-distance-law-idea-gets-irrational-reaction/

(This chimes with my very limited exposure to his opinions on walking and cycling, hi-vizism included.)

(EDIT: The comments went Godwin in two posts.)

patrickbrophy18 · 25-02-2017 09:15PM

The proposal is nice, in theory. However, in practical terms, it will be very difficult to enforce. Here are some points:

There needs to be a radical change in culture between all groups of road users before we can even think of bringing in this law. The most important traits which come to mind are respect and honesty:
- Respect: I've seen far too many cases where people (myself included) single out one or more road user groups when all groups have their fair share of bad eggs.
- Honesty: Be it motorist, cyclists, pedestrian or skater, there are plenty in each of these groups who think the rules don't apply to them either because of a sense of entitlement or otherwise.
Much of the infrastructure nationwide is deplorable and is completely riddled with flaws resulting in members of each road user group fighting for space. From potholes to a lack of footpaths and the classic lick of paint and calling it a cycle lane to poor permeability, each are very frustrating to road users who encounter them.

magicbastarder · 25-02-2017 10:10PM

was talking to a garda (who is also a qualified barrister) earlier. he scoffed at the idea of the law; he reckons it's unenforceable and is inaction dressed up as action.

CramCycle · 25-02-2017 10:46PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

was talking to a garda (who is also a qualified barrister) earlier. he scoffed at the idea of the law; he reckons it's unenforceable and is inaction dressed up as action.

100% right but, and its terrible we are legislating for after the fact, but it gives judges and others a definitive line rather than an opinion. It should not be needed but that is how idiotic our judicial system is.

Kaisr Sose · 25-02-2017 11:12PM

On my short 40km cycle today, I witnessed the usual silly overtakes ( on bends/ /blind sections / with on coming traffic) and general close passes. Nothing will change until the law comes in but then enforcement is a key issue. No contact, no harm will still apply for many.

If all cyclists had cameras it would cetainly help. I would not see An Garda refusing camera evidence. Where there is no contact, it's the only way to determine behaviour.

Now to petition for fly12/6 or similar to be eligible purchases under the C2W scheme. If a hi-vis jacket is safety equipment then so should a camera...

magicbastarder · 25-02-2017 11:36PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I would not see An Garda refusing camera evidence.

this is one of the issues i discussed with the garda above earlier; generally, by design, such cameras tend to be wide angle and it's often very difficult to judge exact distances in them; it's only in unusually clear cut cases that the evidence would be usable.
couple that with the fact that the garda traffic corps is operating at just over half its peak staffing levels, makes such cases difficult to justify following up.

this is a garda who is quite sympathetic to cyclists; we also briefly discussed the cycle lane issue, with the 'explanatory note' problem; his attitude is that the explanatory note has no bearing in law, but simultaneously makes it impossible to apply.

Kaisr Sose · 25-02-2017 11:57PM

Our policing resources in general is a serious cause of concern. With the economy on the bounce, substantial resources and money should be thrown at policing. While the HSE is the basket case of black hole budgeting and spending, policing would offer a significant return above the spend.

Moving on, I posted this link earlier but it may have been missed in the thread as it was moving onto new pages quickly.

https://cycliq.com/blogs/74-74-west-midlands-police-use-cycliq-cameras-in-much-praised-operation-close-pass

It shows that where there is a will by police to embrace camera footage, it can prove dangerous driving.

AndrewJRenko · 26-02-2017 12:19AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is one of the issues i discussed with the garda above earlier; generally, by design, such cameras tend to be wide angle and it's often very difficult to judge exact distances in them; it's only in unusually clear cut cases that the evidence would be usable.
couple that with the fact that the garda traffic corps is operating at just over half its peak staffing levels, makes such cases difficult to justify following up.

If the cyclist can reach out and tap the wing mirror or window during the overtake, ideally on camera, then the car is clearly <1.5m away.

And it won't be that long before there is an easy version of the nearmissometer or similar devices available at low cost.

magicbastarder · 26-02-2017 12:48AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If the cyclist can reach out and tap the wing mirror or window during the overtake, ideally on camera, then the car is clearly <1.5m away.

if i'm being passed by a bus eireann bus with about two foot to spare (which has happened), the very, very, very last thing that is on my mind is 'oh, i could reach up and tap his wing mirror'. one reason being is that i don't have the reflexes of batman. and another reason being that a camera will not catch this manouevre; main't because it'll be happening 90 degrees to the direction of travel, and cameras aren't *that* wide, unless helmet mounted.

TheChizler · 26-02-2017 02:08AM

Plus the very real risk of causing yourself to fall over.

CramCycle · 26-02-2017 10:25AM

When I did use a camera, the grates on the road provided more than ample reference for the camera to get an accurate distance. One BE gave me less than 40cm. My handlebars are 38cm and my elbow touched the bus. Thankfully I was able to skim the edge of the pavement and did not come off. BE denied the incident and there own footage was not recoverable. Another company, done similar, gave me about 70cm but I was OK. Driver apologised, and said he thought it was enough. His trainer on the bus informed me he was a cyclist and it was plenty of space. I preferred the driver to his trainer who should be banned from driving, let alone training.

Higher fines thrown straight into a department that focused solely on analysing dashcams and helmet cams, as well as investment in red light cameras with ANPR.

Kaisr Sose · 26-02-2017 12:53PM

Nailed above by CramCycle.

It's amazing how dashcam footage disappears when there is a complaint made. Claims of technical issues etc. It's just deleted as a defence. As is said, "no contact, no harm"

The absence of red light cameras in this country baffles me. Hardly new tech!! These are the only things that will stop red light running - you can't have a Garda at every junction 24/7 but with these you can and there is no overtime payable!! They could also get the untaxed, uninsured and non nxt' vehicles too.

Any investment in safety infrastructure would save lives but instead the money is all spent on awareness campaigns by the almost not fit for purpose RSA. Somebody described it as the Road Sofa Association here. Funny and quite apt!. It costs a lot and takes a long time to change human behaviour. Forcing a behaviour change through enforcement measures would deliver a quicker and better outcome.

AndrewJRenko · 26-02-2017 01:27PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Nailed above by CramCycle.

It's amazing how dashcam footage disappears when there is a complaint made. Claims of technical issues etc. It's just deleted as a defence. As is said, "no contact, no harm"

I wonder if you'd be better off submitting an FOI claim for the camera footage before submitting the complaint?

Kaisr Sose · 26-02-2017 01:43PM

FOI requests only apply to bodies covered by the legislation - it does not apply to private motorists, coach or haulage companies. Where it does apply (and I am not sure if video footage is covered by the legislation) digital files may be deleted before the request is made or information supplied following a request. How can you prove a negative?

AndrewJRenko · 26-02-2017 01:54PM

Sorry, I should have said Data Protection, not FOI. You are entitled to a copy of any video footage that you feature in, and this applies to public and private bodies.

Kaisr Sose · 26-02-2017 02:21PM

Good point. My hunch would be its deleted on receipt of request if it's not going to help them...just a hunch but people change stories and make things up so why would they want to keep a record of what actually happened? In any event, there is no law that say they must keep it. At least with own footage, you have a reasonably good chance of preserving a record.

MediaMan · 26-02-2017 02:21PM

Even if there are enforcement issues, we should still have the law, if the law reflects the needed behaviour, which it does in my view. It will change the behaviour of many even if enforced poorly.

As mentioned previously, it will also shift the burden of proof when there is an incident.

Should we get rid of the law on red light jumping because it is not being enforced properly?

Tenzor07 · 26-02-2017 02:59PM

MediaMan wrote: »

Should we get rid of the law on red light jumping because it is not being enforced properly?

add to that casual speeding and driving in the bus lane which aren't really enforced due to the lack of Gards to physically catch people...

magicbastarder · 26-02-2017 03:31PM

well, considering the bus (and cycle) lane outside my local garda station has cars parked permanently in it, i doubt it's lack of gardai available which is the issue there.

Kaisr Sose · 26-02-2017 04:49PM

Like magicbaatsrder, I have seen some woeful "enforcement/policing" by AGS right under their noses!! Would be like taking candy from a baby but they drive on....(routine patrol by the way)

ED E · 26-02-2017 05:21PM

Guinness love to park in a yellow box in sight of Rathmines Station and also the one on the corner onto Pearse. All they'd have to do is stand at the window and post an FCPN. Nada.

So again, none of it really matters until AGS are reformed.

ThisRegard · 26-02-2017 05:30PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

Bit about Sean O'Rourke's radio spot:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/02/23/forget-cyclists-think-humans-passing-distance-law-idea-gets-irrational-reaction/

(This chimes with my very limited exposure to his opinions on walking and cycling, hi-vizism included.)

(EDIT: The comments went Godwin in two posts.)

I heard that at the time and was pretty surprised with the dumb downed approach O'Rourke took.

Macy0161 · 26-02-2017 05:52PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is one of the issues i discussed with the garda above earlier; generally, by design, such cameras tend to be wide angle and it's often very difficult to judge exact distances in them; it's only in unusually clear cut cases that the evidence would be usable.
couple that with the fact that the garda traffic corps is operating at just over half its peak staffing levels, makes such cases difficult to justify following up.

Whether camera footage is enough to get a conviction, it might be enough to justify a follow up with the driver. Threat of action may be enough to force a behaviour change (which is the intention of the law) whether through ignorance or punishment passes.

Really can't understand why there isn't much greater use of anpr and camera enforcement in general. Probably get the usual bs about fish in a barrel, which just shows how ingrained some illegal road behaviour is - it's not even seen as something wrong, and the problem is that it'd be actually enforced.

CramCycle · 26-02-2017 08:58PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Like magicbaatsrder, I have seen some woeful "enforcement/policing" by AGS right under their noses!! Would be like taking candy from a baby but they drive on....(routine patrol by the way)

If there is one thing that needs reform here, it is the paperwork faced by AGS. Almost every minor offence seems to require an inordinate amount of paperwork. I can see how perceived minor issues are ignored in order to leave time to function. Corruption aside in some, the AGS are an incredible police force who are being broken by legal BS and paperwork.
Like every workforce there are a number who are a disgrace but by and large the main issues are caused by underfunding, understaffing and crippling restraints from government.

Kaisr Sose · 26-02-2017 09:21PM

@CramCycle
I would not disagree with most if not all of that. I know they are alway seeking extra resources etc. The powers that be at Justice and Finance level need to have a big rethink on policing resources/budgets. There has to be a way to totally reengineer the current process of inordinate paperwork and also make the legal changes necessary for it to be effective.

AndrewJRenko · 26-02-2017 10:05PM

CramCycle wrote: »

If there is one thing that needs reform here, it is the paperwork faced by AGS. Almost every minor offence seems to require an inordinate amount of paperwork. I can see how perceived minor issues are ignored in order to leave time to function. Corruption aside in some, the AGS are an incredible police force who are being broken by legal BS and paperwork..

Great point - I've reported some issues with helmetcam footage, and it is a very painful process - visiting the station by appointment, giving a statement that the Garda handwrites out on the form, handing over the footage burnt on DVD because they can't use YouTube - there has to be a better way.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Good point. My hunch would be its deleted on receipt of request if it's not going to help them...just a hunch but people change stories and make things up so why would they want to keep a record of what actually happened? In any event, there is no law that say they must keep it. At least with own footage, you have a reasonably good chance of preserving a record.

I'd hope that a DP request would be more likely to be dealt with by someone in the office, someone who has no vested interest in whether a particular driver is disciplined or not - just a hope really.

dreamerb · 26-02-2017 10:12PM

MediaMan wrote: »

Even if there are enforcement issues, we should still have the law, if the law reflects the needed behaviour, which it does in my view. It will change the behaviour of many even if enforced poorly.

As mentioned previously, it will also shift the burden of proof when there is an incident.

Should we get rid of the law on red light jumping because it is not being enforced properly?

This is the key point. Minimum passing distances will essentially mean there's a clear offence in any collision, unless the driver can reasonably establish that the cyclist veered out in front of them - quite far and unpredictably.

Where people have helmetcam footage of very close over-taking (wide-angle issues aside), it also means gardai have an actual offence they can follow up on, as opposed to best case "well, that didn't look good did it?" / worst case "well, you weren't hit, so what am I supposed to do?"

robyntmorton · 01-03-2017 10:13PM

Phil Skelton v Conor Faughnan on The Journal about the proposed minimum passing distance law

Debate Room: We need a minimum passing distance law or more cyclists will die on our roads
http://jrnl.ie/3263906

Conor goes a bit hyperbolic about a cyclist standing on a kerb looking at their phone at one point.

Standard caveat: Its The Journal, try to avoid the comments.

Corca Baiscinn · 01-03-2017 10:48PM

[QUOTE Standard caveat: Its The Journal, try to avoid the comments.[/QUOTE]

I see your point, Journal comments not good for the blood pressure but Phil Skelton gives a very good rationale in my opinion for a MPDL and only Jimmy Joe out of all the commentators seems to be giving him any backing so maybe the lot of us should wade in and offer support. Otherwise legislators may decide that judging by public comments the law will be too unpopular to bother with.

robyntmorton · 01-03-2017 11:20PM

As someone who is heavily medicated for blood pressure, can I get a sick note for it?

To some extent I agree though, we do need to publicly support this. Commenting in a sane way on The Journal can be like shouting in a room of howling lunatics, unfortunately.

Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

Comments