6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

Former Former · 24-02-2017 10:15AM

Jonny May's continuing selection baffles me.

Te'o is going to have a field day skittling Italians, but I would have liked to have seen Daly given a go in the centre.

English Lurker · 24-02-2017 10:41AM

Clegg wrote: »

Te'o stars at 13 for England.

I know its probable given the Italy team, but we should probably wait until after the match to say whether he was a star

WeleaseWoderick · 24-02-2017 10:49AM

Former Former wrote: »

Jonny May's continuing selection baffles me.

Te'o is going to have a field day skittling Italians, but I would have liked to have seen Daly given a go in the centre.

Nowell is a far better player than May. Although a game against Italy probably is where May will shine.

I can see Nathan Hughes having a big game (ala Stander against Italy) but he hasn't impressed me at all so far in international rugby (unlike Stander).

Buer · 24-02-2017 11:10AM

.ak wrote:

I for one am glad we have posters like yourself who were around at the time to witness such events.

Next week I'll tell you about the time me and Billy Ellis had brandies.

English Lurker · 24-02-2017 12:23PM

May over Nowell makes sense when you consider the centres.

Replacing Joseph with Te'o takes away a fantastic outside break but adds a big direct threat. The result is (theoretically) more space out wide and less opportunities for a winger to pop up onto a short ball from the half-backs. May's game is attacking open space; Nowell's game is working around the park.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 01:46PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

To an extent its why you need a strong controlling body at European or World Level who decides the format of competitions and have an overriding purpose of 'for the betterment of the game'.
Its not actually healthy in a sport that 6 of the best and richest nations get to play their own closed shop tournament, as they will understandably just look after their own interests.
Having a UEFA and FIFA deciding these things would be better. (Obviously you'd have to guard against FIFAesque levels of corruption).

This is exactly right. Countries like Ireland and England have been "too good" to consider themselves apart of Europe for too long.

It'll never happen but World Rugby should step in and shut the whole thing down. The 6 Nations should be the top division of the ENC.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 01:52PM

Former Former wrote: »

When are the Pacific Islands going to allowed into the Rugby Championship? Or Japan?

Ah yes. The old "two wrongs make a right" argument.

Former Former wrote: »

Letting Georgia in would be absolute suicide for the Six Nations. It's very questionable if it would help Georgia in any meaningful way. It would give us all of the problems associated with Italy and none of the benefits.

It's a nice idea to toss around but it's fundamentally unworkable. If Feehan has to be the bogeyman then grand but that's the way of it.

You're right. It would be absolute suicide for the 6 Nations. The competition would literally no longer exist immediately after the decision was made. But luckily for all of us it would be replaced by a competition called the 7 Nations. Or even better, the teams would just be inserted as the top 6 sides in the Rugby Europe Championship and the current Championship would become the Trophy and so on.

Don't let these people convince you that they're acting in the interests of anyone but themselves. It's an incredible lack of ambition to think that it wouldn't be better for the sport to have the entire continent engaged in a linear process that connects someone like Latvia or Bulgaria at the bottom to our teams at the top. Not only would it be better from a rugby perspective, the long term financial benefits are huge. The main problem is that the upside is not guaranteed to help Irish rugby, or English rugby etc. So the 6 Nations will never endorse it. (all this is true in Asia/Americas/Africa but I don't live there).

Podge_irl · 24-02-2017 02:00PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Don't let these people convince you that they're acting in the interests of anyone but themselves.

Let's be fair here - they are not pretending otherwise.

The Lost Sheep · 24-02-2017 02:01PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is exactly right. Countries like Ireland and England have been "too good" to consider themselves apart of Europe for too long.

It'll never happen but World Rugby should step in and shut the whole thing down. The 6 Nations should be the top division of the ENC.

6 Nations should be more of a part of Rugby Europe but 6 nations cant change in terms of it isn't too long that Ireland were always at bottom of the 5Nations and Italy were doing well. Adding promotion/relegation doesn't help the unions as financial risks of being out of 6 nations even for a season is huge. Do we change 6 nations every few years for a full European championship with 16 teams or what can we do as introducing relegation wont happen

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

To an extent its why you need a strong controlling body at European or World Level who decides the format of competitions and have an overriding purpose of 'for the betterment of the game'.
Its not actually healthy in a sport that 6 of the best and richest nations get to play their own closed shop tournament, as they will understandably just look after their own interests.
Having a UEFA and FIFA deciding these things would be better. (Obviously you'd have to guard against FIFAesque levels of corruption).

We have a fifa style organisation but 6 Nations is outside Rugby Europe control. Even look at age grade. U18 Georgia beat Ireland and several other nations over a few years and then suddenly all but france of the 6 nations pulled out of the rugby Europe tournament.

molloyjh · 24-02-2017 02:03PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Don't let these people convince you that they're acting in the interests of anyone but themselves.

Didn't the statement itself explicitly say that they weren't there to operate in anyone elses interests?

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:06PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Let's be fair here - they are not pretending otherwise.

Oh they do, quite often. We heard them talk for 2 years about how important the development of European rugby is when the changes to the Heineken Cup and particular the Challenge Cup were proposed.

If someone with clout actually suggested they should no longer run their own closed shop they would immediately start making those arguments again.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:07PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Didn't the statement itself explicitly say that they weren't there to operate in anyone elses interests?

Sure. That statement did. Those are not the only words that have ever come out of John Feehan's mouth though.

Former Former · 24-02-2017 02:10PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yes. The old "two wrongs make a right" argument.

No, it's the "two rights make two rights" argument. I ain't no statistician but I think that holds up.

Fiji or Samoa would get absolutely annihilated in the RC, they should not be brought into it. Georgia would get massacred in the 7N, they should not be brought into it.

Former Former · 24-02-2017 02:13PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sure. That statement did. Those are not the only words that have ever come out of John Feehan's mouth though.

Are you talking about stuff he said when he was working for the Pro12?

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:15PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

6 Nations should be more of a part of Rugby Europe but 6 nations cant change in terms of it isn't too long that Ireland were always at bottom of the 5Nations and Italy were doing well. Adding promotion/relegation doesn't help the unions as financial risks of being out of 6 nations even for a season is huge. Do we change 6 nations every few years for a full European championship with 16 teams or what can we do as introducing relegation wont happen.

Relegation is completely possible. The financial risk is actually just the lack of a major financial reward. These 6 Nations shouldn't have an automatic right to being a part of this lucrative competition while every other country in Europe has no possible path to engaging in it. They're in the competition by virtue of the fact that they're in the competition, and nothing more.

We're not the first professional sport which has had to consider the 'parachute' issue when it comes to relegation. If you brought in those sort of payments on a limited time basis it would give a buffer during which a relegated team can attempt to gain promotion without forfeiting revenue, and the promoted side would not recieve a full share immediately (a mix between the 2nd tiers of English rugby and soccer). If you make promotion dependent on victory in a playoff game then it wouldn't be something that would happen every year any way.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:17PM

Former Former wrote: »

Are you talking about stuff he said when he was working for the Pro12?

He always worked for both competitions.

However I'm more talking about IRFU representatives in general, rather than just Feehan.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:23PM

Former Former wrote: »

No, it's the "two rights make two rights" argument. I ain't no statistician but I think that holds up.

Fiji or Samoa would get absolutely annihilated in the RC, they should not be brought into it. Georgia would get massacred in the 7N, they should not be brought into it.

I would imagine you would have said Argentina would have got absolutely annihilated as well.

But it's not a major problem that teams are not competitive. It's far far better than having absolutely no avenue for a team like Georgia or Romania to improve beyond the heights they have reached previously.

I'm not saying Georgia should be automatically given a place in the 6 Nations either. What I think should happen is that if the team who finish bottom of the 6 Nations should be required to play an annual playoff against the victors of the ENC. That'd be Georgia v Italy this Autumn most likely. That'd probably be the most competitive match, and the most important match, either nation has ever played. And the winner takes the spoils, for one year at least.

Former Former · 24-02-2017 02:26PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He always worked for both competitions.

However I'm more talking about IRFU representatives in general, rather than just Feehan.

Feehan is not an IRFU representative.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:31PM

Former Former wrote: »

Feehan is not an IRFU representative.

He has been, and he currently certainly represents the IRFU's interests. But its not really important, I'm sure you're able to understand my point.

molloyjh · 24-02-2017 02:35PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He has been, and he currently certainly represents the IRFU's interests. But its not really important, I'm sure you're able to understand my point.

I think maybe you should explain it rather than talk around it. Because you started talking about a statement made and a position on the entry of Georgia into the 6Ns. Then you were talking about some random other things that Feehan said which you never actually mentioned (unless I missed a post or two). Then you said you weren't talking about him specifically but IRFU representatives generally, but again have failed to actual mention what exactly it is you're talking about. Now you reckon we should just know. Maybe some do, and maybe I've missed some posts, but I'm in no way clear exactly what it is you're trying to say. Maybe you could, I don't know, say it?

The Lost Sheep · 24-02-2017 02:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would imagine you would have said Argentina would have got absolutely annihilated as well.

But it's not a major problem that teams are not competitive. It's far far better than having absolutely no avenue for a team like Georgia or Romania to improve beyond the heights they have reached previously.

I'm not saying Georgia should be automatically given a place in the 6 Nations either. What I think should happen is that if the team who finish bottom of the 6 Nations should be required to play an annual playoff against the victors of the ENC. That'd be Georgia v Italy this Autumn most likely. That'd probably be the most competitive match, and the most important match, either nation has ever played. And the winner takes the spoils, for one year at least.

But that just wont ever happen when the 6Nations is so important to the finances of the unions involved and if we took the income from the 6 nations away for a year then it cripples so much within the game in the country involved.

Former Former · 24-02-2017 02:41PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He has been, and he currently certainly represents the IRFU's interests. But its not really important, I'm sure you're able to understand my point.

I understand your point - it just doesn't make sense.

You seem to be saying that because Feehan has moved between organisations, he should always maintain the same position on a given issue? That's just not how the real world works. He's obliged to act in the best interests of his employer.

Maybe clarify what you mean, or are you just going to get more and more vague?

(I don't remember Feehan working for IRFU, it must be a long time ago?)

I would imagine you would have said Argentina would have got absolutely annihilated as well.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You thought up something that, if I had said it, would undermine my argument, and then said "well, I'll bet that's what you thought", even though it's all in your head. It's a novel approach, I'll give you that.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:41PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I think maybe you should explain it rather than talk around it. Because you started talking about a statement made and a position on the entry of Georgia into the 6Ns. Then you were talking about some random other things that Feehan said which you never actually mentioned (unless I missed a post or two). Then you said you weren't talking about him specifically but IRFU representatives generally, but again have failed to actual mention what exactly it is you're talking about. Now you reckon we should just know. Maybe some do, and maybe I've missed some posts, but I'm in no way clear exactly what it is you're trying to say. Maybe you could, I don't know, say it?

It's just not that important to me. I'm not going to spend time to go back through his previous comments to find exactly what he's said because I really couldn't care less if you think or believe he has or hasn't said something. If you would prefer I take it all back and say he's a lovely man (he probably is), thats fine with me, it doesn't change my opinion on the subject in the slightest.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:43PM

Former Former wrote: »

That's just not how the real world works. He's obliged to act in the best interests of his employer.

Really? That's how the real world works?

Former Former wrote: »

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You thought up something that, if I had said it, would undermine my argument, and then said "well, I'll bet that's what you thought", even though it's all in your head. It's a novel approach, I'll give you that.

The dumbest thing you've ever read? Good luck so.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 02:46PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But that just wont ever happen when the 6Nations is so important to the finances of the unions involved and if we took the income from the 6 nations away for a year then it cripples so much within the game in the country involved.

You've misread what I said. There's a way to implement the system without taking away the income from the relegated nation.

I don't think it will happen. But I don't think any major improvement will happen, so I'm happy to stick to idealism and just state what I think the best outcome is.

Former Former · 24-02-2017 02:50PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Really? That's how the real world works?

Yes, it is. The real world where players have to be paid, grass roots rugby has to be funded, where money has to be generated to cover all that.

We've heard it often enough that the Six Nations is our bread and butter, pays the bills etc. Dumping Italy and bringing in Georgia blows an enormous hole in that. Having a promotion/relegation system blows an enormous hole in that.

This is grand for an internet forum "what if" discussion, but guys like Feehan have to work with the brass tacks of it and it's just not feasible.

sydthebeat · 24-02-2017 03:01PM

Former Former wrote: »

We've heard it often enough that the Six Nations is our bread and butter, pays the bills etc. Dumping Italy and bringing in Georgia blows an enormous hole in that. Having a promotion/relegation system blows an enormous hole in that.
.

i have no idea of how the figures work so can you please expand on this?

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 03:01PM

Former Former wrote: »

Yes, it is. The real world where players have to be paid, grass roots rugby has to be funded, where money has to be generated to cover all that.

We've heard it often enough that the Six Nations is our bread and butter, pays the bills etc. Dumping Italy and bringing in Georgia blows an enormous hole in that. Having a promotion/relegation system blows an enormous hole in that.

This is grand for an internet forum "what if" discussion, but guys like Feehan have to work with the brass tacks of it and giving them stick for doing their job is crazy.

Is this a different real world to the one where the 6 Nations and IRFU are HQd 2 minutes from each other and the employees of those organisations who have worked together have social relationships outside of their day to day jobs? Is it the same real world where other nations have complained about situations like that influencing the day to day work of those employees? Is it the same real world where people who work professionally within a very niche industry need to keep in mind their reputation with the very limited numbers of other prospective employers in the city they want to live in? Maybe thats a different world.

Now I want to stop here and point out the above paragraph sounds very conspirational, I want to point out I'm not saying any of this has influenced anything Feehan or anyone else has ever said in their lives, but I think its rich for someone to try to tell me that in the real world everyone is a model professional and organisations operate entirely independently of externalities. I'm completely aware of what the real world is.

As for our bread and butter. The importance of international rugby is exactly why I want rugby on the continent to be expanded. It should be beneficial to grass roots players in Sofia and Madrid as well as Clontarf and Coventry. Unfortunately Rugby Europe is completely undermined by the selfishness of these nations and that's what I would love to see ended.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2017 03:03PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have no idea of how the figures work so can you please expand on this?

There are no figures available that give an indication what would happen if Georgia were in the 6 Nations instead of Italy. All of the current deals in place would need to be re-negotiated and the chance of France/England being relegated would decrease the value of those deals to some extent as they're the big earners.

molloyjh · 24-02-2017 03:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

I think maybe you should explain it rather than talk around it. Because you started talking about a statement made and a position on the entry of Georgia into the 6Ns. Then you were talking about some random other things that Feehan said which you never actually mentioned (unless I missed a post or two). Then you said you weren't talking about him specifically but IRFU representatives generally, but again have failed to actual mention what exactly it is you're talking about. Now you reckon we should just know. Maybe some do, and maybe I've missed some posts, but I'm in no way clear exactly what it is you're trying to say. Maybe you could, I don't know, say it?

It's just not that important to me. I'm not going to spend time to go back through his previous comments to find exactly what he's said because I really couldn't care less if you think or believe he has or hasn't said something. If you would prefer I take it all back and say he's a lovely man (he probably is), thats fine with me, it doesn't change my opinion on the subject in the slightest.

I never asked you to find quotes. I asked you to explain what you're talking about. You're talking about things people have said as though we all know exactly what those things are, but you've never explained what those things are. It's like me saying "well Joe said something once, so I think you know what I mean". I honestly haven't got the foggiest what you're talking about. I get the general overriding point, but the specifics of some of it are a complete mystery because you've alluded to them but never actually spoken about them.

EDIT: Also, if it doesn't matter to you that much then why are you posting so much about it? If you don't want to engage then don't. This half in and half out thing you're doing is a waste of everyone's time, yours included.

6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

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