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DFB Strike

  • 17-02-2017 5:45pm
    #1
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭


    Just read that Firemen in Dublin have voted 93% of strike action over lack of ambulance capacity. Personally it surprises how much Firemen really care about their Paramedic/Ambulance duties. If it was me now I'd looking give them up as I'm sure fighting fires is a difficult enough job without having to with deal cardiac arrests, high blood pressure and let us say difficult customers. But I'm sure they do a excellent job in people's hour of need.

    I can also understand DCC's point of view due to the fact whether ithe be right or wrong the fact remains that they are the only council in the country that is asked fund albeit it partly and operate an ambulance service.

    I wonder how it will be operating during any sort of strike will strikers continue to operate while on picket lines or will we have to call in the civil defence or army to provide fire services while the army, voluntary ambulance services and the hse be asked to pick up the slack ambulance wise.

    Thoughts?


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Comments

  • #2
    mr cowen
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭mr cowen


    "they are the only council in the country that is asked fund albeit it partly and operate an ambulance service." untrue!!!


    DCC arent the only council in the country that fund an ambulance service, south dublin coubty council, dunlaoire/rathdown and fingal all fund an ambulance service.
    civil defence dont have the experience and training and the army dont have the equipment nor training either and the HSE in there capacity review dont have the staff to take over a 100,000 calls.


  • #3
    easygoing1982
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭easygoing1982


    Am I right in saying though that even though there is a proposed take over by HSE of all Dublin ambulance services, DFB will still supply the service but will be under the control of the HSE/NAS? If so could that mean DFB ambos could be sent to different counties and will also have to have a tetra set as well as UHF?


  • #4
    timmywex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭timmywex


    easygoing1982 wrote: »
    Am I right in saying though that even though there is a proposed take over by HSE of all Dublin ambulance services, DFB will still supply the service but will be under the control of the HSE/NAS? If so could that mean DFB ambos could be sent to different counties and will also have to have a tetra set as well as UHF?

    Potentially.

    I'm all in support of the DFB but the current situation of ambulance dispatch in Dublin is good for nobody. The systems need to be integrated at the least. With an integrated system at least then the nearest resource - be it HSE/DFB will get dispatched to a call rather than both services ringing each other when short and requesting


  • #5
    easygoing1982
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭easygoing1982


    timmywex wrote: »
    Potentially.

    I'm all in support of the DFB but the current situation of ambulance dispatch in Dublin is good for nobody. The systems need to be integrated at the least. With an integrated system at least then the nearest resource - be it HSE/DFB will get dispatched to a call rather than both services ringing each other when short and requesting



    But would that also mean DFB wouldn't be utilised to their full potential with regards to dispatching their tenders to medical calls?


  • #6
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    easygoing1982 wrote: »
    But would that also mean DFB wouldn't be utilised to their full potential with regards to dispatching their tenders to medical calls?

    I'm sure a way could be found to allow for the hse control to dispatch fire tenders. Just as they can request for fire tenders to be sent while a HSE Ambo is on its way to the seen of an emergency.

    For example I drove past a cyclist v car RTA a few months back in Deansgrange most of that part of Dublin is predominatly served by buy mostly the HSE but a fire crew from Dun Laoghaire fire station were tending to the casualty before a HSE Ambulance arrived to transport the patient to hospital.


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  • #7
    stretch00
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭stretch00


    easygoing1982 wrote: »
    But would that also mean DFB wouldn't be utilised to their full potential with regards to dispatching their tenders to medical calls?

    Step away from the tin opener on that one. I'm hoping you don't work in EMS.


  • #8
    easygoing1982
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭easygoing1982


    stretch00 wrote: »
    Step away from the tin opener on that one. I'm hoping you don't work in EMS.

    ???


  • #9
    5500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭5500


    Out of interest who has the larger resource pool of ambulance's within Dublin? DFB or NAS?
    Regardless of who takes over the control of EMS within Dublin, how many more ambulance's are still needed to run things smoothly ie no call's being Q'd on a regular basis? Granted the NAS can pull unit's in from other area's but again that's not ideal removing cover from somewhere else.

    Did the HIQA report recommenced either side specifically to run all EMS call's in Dublin or was it just assumed it would be NAS as that's their overall role?


  • #10
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    5500 wrote: »
    Out of interest who has the larger resource pool of ambulance's within Dublin? DFB or NAS?
    Regardless of who takes over the control of EMS within Dublin, how many more ambulance's are still needed to run things smoothly ie no call's being Q'd on a regular basis? Granted the NAS can pull unit's in from other area's but again that's not ideal removing cover from somewhere else.

    Did the HIQA report recommenced either side specifically to run all EMS call's in Dublin or was it just assumed it would be NAS as that's their overall role?

    It was identified dfb require 4 extra ambulances in the capacity review of DFB.

    It was also suggested the services stay as they are but link the control rooms better which can be implemented. The city manager however didn't want to know about this solution and wants his own way.


  • #11
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    Stephen15 wrote: »

    I'm sure a way could be found to allow for the hse control to dispatch fire tenders. Just as they can request for fire tenders to be sent while a HSE Ambo is on its way to the seen of an emergency.

    For example I drove past a cyclist v car RTA a few months back in Deansgrange most of that part of Dublin is predominatly served by buy mostly the HSE but a fire crew from Dun Laoghaire fire station were tending to the casualty before a HSE Ambulance arrived to transport the patient to hospital.


    I fail to see how this could be implemented without causing more of a mess in the situation. For example do fire trucks and ambulances now work with 2 radios one for dfb control and the other NAS control?

    Also it would be messy taking one part of dfb and having that under the control of NAS and having the fire side under the control of DFB control. How do you synchronise the dispatch of fire tenders in both control rooms. This solution hasn't been discussed from what I can work out. I think it complicates the system further but that's a whole other discussion


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  • #12
    AmboMan
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭AmboMan


    I'd imagine communications would not be a major issue, they will just instal tetra on the DFB vehicles.


  • #13
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭sjb25


    blackmark wrote: »
    I fail to see how this could be implemented without causing more of a mess in the situation. For example do fire trucks and ambulances now work with 2 radios one for dfb control and the other NAS control?

    Also it would be messy taking one part of dfb and having that under the control of NAS and having the fire side under the control of DFB control. How do you synchronise the dispatch of fire tenders in both control rooms. This solution hasn't been discussed from what I can work out. I think it complicates the system further but that's a whole other discussion

    Won't be messy at all all you need is to install avl and tetra into dfb vehicles including the fire tenders (they are a resource with paramedics on board as is always said) they will all be then visible to the NAS dispatcher so no matter what vehicle is closest to the incident be it a NAS or DFB resource the closest will be dispatched nothing complicated about it


  • #14
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭sjb25


    blackmark wrote: »
    How do you synchronise the dispatch of fire tenders in both control rooms.

    If on a fire call the crew of the fire tender can send a code with the tetra radio that they are on a fire call the NAS controller will then know they are unavailable for a call


  • #15
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    So just have 2 radios linked to 2 different control rooms? That is messy in its own right. Also would a fire tender be dispatched alongside an ambulance with the NAS (which is currently done with dfb for certain medical calls) Doubt it esp if they use the closest resource is dispatched method. Also what if an rta is phoned in and the caller requests just an ambulance? Would nas dispatch a fire tender to this too cause I don't think they do outside Dublin (I'm not overly familiar with this setup but have heard stories of delays in getting fire crews on scene until the ambulance arrives and assesses the scene... further delay here) ... now you have a cross between just mobilising ambulances to mobilising fire tenders for rta... there would be a lot of crossover with pda.


  • #16
    easygoing1982
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭easygoing1982


    sjb25 wrote: »
    Won't be messy at all all you need is to install avl and tetra into dfb vehicles including the fire tenders (they are a resource with paramedics on board as is always said) they will all be then visible to the NAS dispatcher so no matter what vehicle is closest to the incident be it a NAS or DFB resource the closest will be dispatched nothing complicated about it

    But what if for example D101 goes MAV then there's a cardiac arrest is around the corner but DFB want to send them to a fire call. Who gets control of it. Dual control of a vehicle is madness and could cause friction between the 2 control centres


  • #17
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    This is my issue with the proposed solutions. It introduces too many new moving parts... also here's another example


    101 go mav and a medical call (not necesserily a delta or echo call) comes up but the nearest ambulance resource is 20 mins away yet 101 is around the corner.... will they be sending 101 along with the nearest ambulance resource....


  • #18
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    You don't need two radios, the Tetra units can take multiple feeds from source/sources. I am fairly sure that you could convert the analog signal from the fed 1 and relay it via the same Tetra and trunk it using the same equipment.

    Basically you'd be piggy backing the new network off the same network, just you'd have two sources on the Tetra, with an Analog to Digital and Digital to Analog fed, the DFB non ambulance network would still be secured by the trunk on the network, separating traffic.


  • #19
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    TallGlass wrote: »
    You don't need two radios, the Tetra units can take multiple feeds from source/sources. I am fairly sure that you could convert the analog signal from the fed 1 and relay it via the same Tetra and trunk it using the same equipment.

    Basically you'd be piggy backing the new network off the same network, just you'd have two sources on the Tetra, with an Analog to Digital and Digital to Analog fed, the DFB non ambulance network would still be secured by the trunk on the network, separating traffic.

    That sounds great but you still have 2 separate control rooms to talk to and Dfb use different terminology than the NAS (mav, cd) etc so do you introduce both or eliminate one? Genuinely curious as to how this would work? I'm not trying to poke holes in merely highlighting differences in both services and where do you bridge the gap?


  • #20
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    blackmark wrote: »
    Dfb use different terminology than the NAS (mav, cd) etc so do you introduce both or eliminate one? Genuinely curious as to how this would work? I'm not trying to poke holes in merely highlighting differences in both services and where do you bridge the gap?

    No idea blackmark, just commenting on the technology, Tetras a good piece of kit, but as usual poorly implemented in Ireland.

    But I would imagine some sort of refresher course with an update to radio chatter, the whole implementation would require a good change in infrastructure on both sides to be honest.

    It should be left as is to be honest, spend money improving what is already there on both sides, not wasting it.


  • #21
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    blackmark wrote: »
    That sounds great but you still have 2 separate control rooms to talk to

    Granted you may have calls from two control rooms, but most Gardaí patrol cars as far as I know take calls from control and station, granted there the same organisation.

    Again, the technology can do it, just logistically well tech can do that too but ultimately it's the guys on the ground that have to adjust to the changes on both sides if they want it too work.


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  • #22
    blackmark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭blackmark


    TallGlass wrote: »
    blackmark wrote: »
    Dfb use different terminology than the NAS (mav, cd) etc so do you introduce both or eliminate one? Genuinely curious as to how this would work? I'm not trying to poke holes in merely highlighting differences in both services and where do you bridge the gap?

    No idea blackmark, just commenting on the technology, Tetras a good piece of kit, but as usual poorly implemented in Ireland.

    But I would imagine some sort of refresher course with an update to radio chatter, the whole implementation would require a good change in infrastructure on both sides to be honest.

    It should be left as is to be honest, spend money improving what is already there on both sides, not wasting it.

    Yeah that's my fear, money wasted changing a system that doesn't need changing etc etc.

    Cheers for the input regarding tetra. I have used tetra in a previous employment and it is excellent technology which dfb should utilise but that's a new discussion down the line lol


  • #23
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Two 24 hours hour stoppages confirmed for 18th March and 27th March


  • #24
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭sjb25


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Two 24 hours hour stoppages confirmed for 18th March and 27th March

    It's ok stephen :)


  • #25
    5500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭5500


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Two 24 hours hour stoppages confirmed for 18th March and 27th March

    I haven't seen it posted anywhere but is it an all out strike or in what way is it working? eg no EMS call's attended to or a reduction of services or what is happening? Surprised it hasn't gained more mainstream media coverage either


  • #26
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    5500 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it posted anywhere but is it an all out strike or in what way is it working? eg no EMS call's attended to or a reduction of services or what is happening? Surprised it hasn't gained more mainstream media coverage either

    Reduction in service from what I read


  • #27
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭sjb25


    5500 wrote: »
    I haven't seen it posted anywhere but is it an all out strike or in what way is it working? eg no EMS call's attended to or a reduction of services or what is happening? Surprised it hasn't gained more mainstream media coverage either

    Be some kind of reduction in service I'm assuming the will still provide emergency cover


  • #28
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    sjb25 wrote: »
    Be some kind of reduction in service I'm assuming the will still provide emergency cover

    I think they're reducing the services effectivness or something like that


  • #29
    mr cowen
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭mr cowen


    all out strike!!

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/mother-and-two-young-girls-die-after-fire-in-dublin-apartment-35512201.html

    who'll be there next month to rescue the citizens of Dublin


  • #30
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Strike off for at least the time being anyway.


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  • #31
    5500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭5500


    Haven't heard anything on this recently but has DCC gone back to the table for discussions or what's going on? It may be just by chance but I've noticed a lot of dual response from DFB and NAS around west Dublin in recent weeks, I know the NAS ambo base is temporarily in cherry orchard hospital which may be why I'm seeing response car's ect chasing tender's but wondered if there was some movement/trial between the two control room's?


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