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New bus lanes for Dublin City Centre by August

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Who does a grocery shop in the city centre that doesnt already live in the city centre?

    Who only ever shops for groceries and never for anything else? :confused:
    There are a vast amount of private cars driving into the city centre everyday and they are not shopping. Most are working and they contribute to traffic congestion.

    Reduce fares, increase frequency and increase route coverage.

    Spend any amount of time in another major city and you'll realise how crappy the service is in Ireland compared with elsewhere. I went to New York with my dad years back and we never once took a cab because the subway was so frequent and because there was practically nowhere you couldn't get to. Contrast that with Ireland where a 15 minute wait between DARTS and sometimes a 30 minute wait between busses is the norm, couples with more than €5 a day just to get in and out of the city - it's ridiculous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Who only ever shops for groceries and never for anything else? :confused:



    Reduce fares, increase frequency and increase route coverage.

    Spend any amount of time in another major city and you'll realise how crappy the service is in Ireland compared with elsewhere. I went to New York with my dad years back and we never once took a cab because the subway was so frequent and because there was practically nowhere you couldn't get to. Contrast that with Ireland where a 15 minute wait between DARTS and sometimes a 30 minute wait between busses is the norm, couples with more than €5 a day just to get in and out of the city - it's ridiculous.

    You do know €5 won't even get you 2 hours parking in the city centre so using that as an excuse for not using public transport is just wrong.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Who only ever shops for groceries and never for anything else? :confused:

    And what Blanchardstown, etc. don't exist?

    Or Amazon and thousands of other sites with online delivery?

    Or if you have ever been on a bus you will see people clutching bags full of clothes and household items they have bought in town.

    Again less then 20% of people who shop in Dublin City Center get there by car. The other 80% some how manage it :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Reduce fares, increase frequency and increase route coverage.
    eh; that's what the bus lane modifications are trying to help with. you want them to achieve all the above without taking steps necessary to achieve the above.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think the biggest issue here is brown thomas. too many people who shop there who wouldn't be seen dead on public transport, hence the need for the car park at the back. maybe we should forcibly move BT out to monkstown.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    bk wrote: »
    - Drive to a shopping center like Blanchardstown
    - Order online for delivery, Amazon, Tesco online, etc.

    Not an option if you need to buy a particular item from a particular shop and that is only available in the city.
    - Simply carry it on the bus like lots of people already do.

    Not an option if you have a lot of purchases and not enough space to store them, particularly at busy times.
    Seriously how do you think the many people who don't own cars do it?!

    With great difficulty - I'm one of those people myself. But if I wasn't able to get the occasional lift, some things, such as gigging in the city with a lot of equipment, would be simply impossible.
    Today, only 19.7% of people who shop in Dublin City Center got there by car. 56% get there by public transport and 21.4% by walking:

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-survey-shows-importance-of-public-transport-passengers-to-dublin-city-centre-retailers/

    Seriously how do you think all those people get their shopping home!

    So you're honestly saying that you can't think of a single instance in which somebody might need their own transport for shopping?
    Except most people in Dublin City center for work or shopping DO in fact get their by public transport, walking or cycling as you can see from the above survey and many other similar surveys. In fact the vast majority do.

    Then why is congestion still a problem?
    - Most shoppers already get there by public transport or walking

    Most. Not all. See above.
    - Public transport while not cheap, is still much cheaper then actually owning a car.

    You're assuming there's only one occupant in each car. Think about families and car shares and that situation becomes vastly different.
    - You get a taxi home

    For me that would be €30 a night.
    or cycle

    Not an option again if you're carrying a lot of gear for whatever reason.
    also nothing stopping you from using one of the car parks that you will still have access to. They are only really blocking through traffic.

    This is untrue - they are trying, as they have publicly stated, to make it as much of a nuisance as possible to drive around the city.
    - Most of the city and suburbs is covered by regular bus services.

    :pac:
    There are very few routes that only run once or twice a day and where they are there also more regular services close by.

    That's what you call "regular"? I'm sorry, but waiting 45 minutes for a bus in the pissing rain and when you have a lot of gear with you is ridiculous.
    Also nothing stopping you from driving to your closest DART or Luas station, leaving the car there and getting public transport in the rest of the way as many people do every day.

    Unless, as I've already stated, you have a lot of things to transport. How difficult is this to understand?
    BTW I do agree that Dublin Bus should operate 24/7, but that is a conversation for another day.

    It absolutely isn't, the two go 100% hand in hand. Without a 24/7 public transport system, driving is an absolute necessity for some people.
    But the rest of your points aren't valid as the majority of people who live and work in Dublin City Center already manage to do so without a car.

    Then car users are the minority. What's your point? They're still citizens and still need to be able to live their lives.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    eh; that's what the bus lane modifications are trying to help with. you want them to achieve all the above without taking steps necessary to achieve the above.

    Building bus lanes on every street in Ireland won't increase services and reduce fares unless the government bring their annual subventions back into line with the European average.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    hatrickpatrick I've lived 15 years in Dublin now, don't own a car (could easily afford one if I wanted) and yet I own my own place and it is full of all the same things that everyone elses is!

    Sofa, beds, kitchen appliances, TV, etc. Went to a shop, picked them out and most delivered to my home for free or something minimal like €10.

    Medium sized electrical items and toys, mostly order from Amazon, delivered to my door for free.

    I pay Tesco €10 per month for unlimited grocery deliveries right to my door, it is brilliant. I also have lots of nice small grocery, veg, bakery and butcher shops 5 minutes walk away.

    Clothes and shoes I would shop in town for, but they don't typically weigh much, one or two bags are super easy to take home in the bus.

    To be honest, you are being very closed minded if you think you need a car to do any of the above.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    are we actually talking about a ban on private cars in the city centre, or was it just a casual 'it'd be great if we could remove the scourge of the single occupant private car' sort of comment?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Not an option if you have a lot of purchases and not enough space to store them, particularly at busy times.
    Then don't shop for bulky stuff at busy times. Cars are not being banned, public transport is being prioritised.

    There's a whole host of contradictory public policies and people's attitudes clashing here, and it's inevitably going to be a mess. We have caps on heights in the city centre, meaning more people live outside the city. We have lowrise office parks scattered everywhere, and to get there using PT would mean most people having to get two buses. We have people living in one off houses who don't have access to public transport because the density isn't there. We have all our PT systems using the same bit of road space because we haven't built a metro.

    Tinkering is no good - we need some form of transport/city Czar/Mayor with powers to cut through contradictory public policies.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭drake70


    i think the biggest issue here is brown thomas. too many people who shop there who wouldn't be seen dead on public transport, hence the need for the car park at the back. maybe we should forcibly move BT out to monkstown farm.

    Fixed that for ya :pac:


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Not an option if you need to buy a particular item from a particular shop and that is only available in the city.

    Really, name one item that can't be gotten online?

    I literally can't think of a single one. I prefer to try on clothes in person for obvious reasons, but still super easy to carry home.
    Not an option if you have a lot of purchases and not enough space to store them, particularly at busy times.

    Bull mate, it is easy to carry two or three bags on the bus, even at busy times. I do it all the time.

    If you have more then that just drive to Blandcharstown or buy online for delivery.
    With great difficulty - I'm one of those people myself. But if I wasn't able to get the occasional lift, some things, such as gigging in the city with a lot of equipment, would be simply impossible.

    Gigging in the city is a different story. Road access will remain for deliveries, services, etc.
    So you're honestly saying that you can't think of a single instance in which somebody might need their own transport for shopping?

    I honestly can't, please point one out?
    Then why is congestion still a problem?

    What, congestion is a problem because the bus lane is carrying ten times the number of people as the car! Now I've read it all.

    Can you imagine what congestion would be like if those buses disappeared and those 10 times as many people all took their cars into town instead!

    You're assuming there's only one occupant in each car. Think about families and car shares and that situation becomes vastly different.

    Actually my numbers take that into account. Go read the NTA/DCC report. They take into account the number of people actually in the cars, works out at about 1.5 per car and the actual numbers of people on each bus.

    For me that would be €30 a night.

    Shrug, so out as far as about Dun Laoghaire, I've paid that loads of times myself when I was dating a girl from there. Still cheaper then owning a car.

    But as I said I agree that Dublin Bus should operate 24/7
    Not an option again if you're carrying a lot of gear for whatever reason.

    Most people aren't gigging and aren't carrying lots of gear. Obviously their will still be access for deliveries, vans, service vehicles, etc.

    How do you think giggers do it in cities like Amsterdam that are highly pedestrianised?
    This is untrue - they are trying, as they have publicly stated, to make it as much of a nuisance as possible to drive around the city.

    Of course they are, because the car is by far the least efficient form of transport in a dense city centre.

    Do you have an alternative plan for the congestion which will only get worse at the cities population is growing so fast?
    That's what you call "regular"? I'm sorry, but waiting 45 minutes for a bus in the pissing rain and when you have a lot of gear with you is ridiculous.

    Well we have gone from 2 buses a day to one every 45 minutes now :rolleyes:

    Would you like to point out what bus route operates every 45 minutes?

    Because very few do, most of Dublin Buses routes now operate every 10 minutes peak.

    Also you can always drive to the closest Luas or Dart station and park there or to a car park close to a busy bus route.

    Unless, as I've already stated, you have a lot of things to transport. How difficult is this to understand?

    Again, the vast majority of people aren't giggers and carrying music equipment.

    Such people will still have access, like other service vehicles do.
    It absolutely isn't, the two go 100% hand in hand. Without a 24/7 public transport system, driving is an absolute necessity for some people.

    No it isn't, as I mentioned, 15 years in Dublin without a car, it really isn't difficult.
    Then car users are the minority. What's your point? They're still citizens and still need to be able to live their lives.

    Because while they are a minority, they take up the majority of road space, which is very clearly inefficient.

    What gives one person the right to take up the same amount of space as 10 people in a bus next them?

    What gives motorists the right to more then 50% of the road space, when they make up just 20% of the people shopping in town?

    Can't you see why that is horribly unfair on the other 80%

    Also there is the simply reality that Dublin City population is growing rapidly and the congestion will simply get worse unless we do something about it.

    We simply can't fit any more cars on our roads, so unless you have an alternative plan, then it makes more sense to give over more of the road space over to forms of transport that use it more efficiently.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    are we actually talking about a ban on private cars in the city centre, or was it just a casual 'it'd be great if we could remove the scourge of the single occupant private car' sort of comment?

    They aren't actually banning cars from the city center. However this plan will ban cars from some of the key core city center streets, which will stop cars from just driving through the city and will realistically make it less attractive to drive into the city.

    Car will still be allowed and still have access to car parks etc. They just won't have priority any more.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    the granting of permission for the BT car park has to be one of the worst planning decisions DCC has made (maybe not quite the same as the decision to build on wood quay).

    access to, and exit from, this car park are on ludicrously narrow back streets which should be pedestrianised.

    Planners in Amsterdam made the same mistake with a car park linked to a BT-like retailer who is owned by the same family as BT.

    And the car park is still causing problems in Amsterdam too.
    bk wrote: »
    Mostly free or very cheap parking for civil servants.

    For most state department and other agencies this was over blown -- look at the Central Bank, they don't currently have parking for all of their staff and they will have less with more staff at their new location.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    ...I'm confused... are people on this thread suggesting there'll be shops made inaccessible by this plan? Which shops and where to you currently park near there shops?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    bk wrote: »
    Actually my numbers take that into account. Go read the NTA/DCC report. They take into account the number of people actually in the cars, works out at about 1.5 per car and the actual numbers of people on each bus.
    i didn't think it was as high as 1.5 per car, i remember reading about ten years ago that it was about 1.2.

    and i've often wondered do they subtract the taxi driver from the count in taxis (which would result in 0 occupancy cars being counted, but hey)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    monument wrote: »
    ...I'm confused... are people on this thread suggesting there'll be shops made inaccessible by this plan? Which shops and where to you currently park near there shops?
    i am outraged by the idea that i will not be able to carry my chest freezer i buy in arnotts back to my parked car.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Amazing the culture change. My parents rarely had a car, but in the 1950s-60s and into 70s, everything was delivered - the bread van, the butcher's van and the laundry van called to homes; you'd walk to the fishmonger's and greengrocers (which were every couple of streets) to choose your fresh fish and vegetables and, in the earlier years, get your butter weighed out and wrapped in greaseproof paper. Then the shops consolidated into supermarkets, and got the shoppers to do the transporting instead of the shops doing the delivering. You can still get big stuff delivered, and the price isn't generally that huge, but it's so outside the culture that people are shocked at the idea of paying a tenner to get a cooker or a fridge delivered.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Amazing the culture change. My parents rarely had a car, but in the 1950s-60s and into 70s, everything was delivered - the bread van, the butcher's van and the laundry van called to homes; you'd walk to the fishmonger's and greengrocers (which were every couple of streets) to choose your fresh fish and vegetables and, in the earlier years, get your butter weighed out and wrapped in greaseproof paper. Then the shops consolidated into supermarkets, and got the shoppers to do the transporting instead of the shops doing the delivering. You can still get big stuff delivered, and the price isn't generally that huge, but it's so outside the culture that people are shocked at the idea of paying a tenner to get a cooker or a fridge delivered.

    Though funnily enough, the old ways are starting to come back.

    Tesco online delivery has massively taken off. When I work from home, I see them doing multiple deliveries to my apartment every day.

    An Post, DHL, etc. guys all know me by first name from frequent deliveries from Amazon, etc. and I see them doing the same every day for others in the building.

    Deliveroo doing food deliveries. Fresh food and vegetable delivery services have massively taken off.

    There is a company who will come and collect dry cleaning from your home and return it when finished.

    Really not hard not too own a car in Dublin these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Not everyone can afford to pay for everything to be delivered so collecting it in the car might be the only option.

    The price some places charge for delivery is almost the same as the cost of the item.

    I recently paid a mate €20 petrol money to run me around 3-4 places buying/collecting stuff to do up the kitchen.

    Would have cost me about €80 to have it all delivered.

    Just because not having a car works for you, it does not mean that it will work for everyone else.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Not everyone can afford to pay for everything to be delivered so collecting it in the car might be the only option.

    What?! Amazon delivers most stuff for free. Nearly anything you can dream of is on Amazon!

    And IME Amazon is MUCH cheaper then Irish brick and mortars stores.

    And of course, nothing stopping you from driving to Blachardstown, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    When the luas starts crossing the river, the real fun will begin


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,189 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Not everyone can afford to pay for everything to be delivered so collecting it in the car might be the only option.

    The price some places charge for delivery is almost the same as the cost of the item.

    I recently paid a mate €20 petrol money to run me around 3-4 places buying/collecting stuff to do up the kitchen.

    Would have cost me about €80 to have it all delivered.

    Just because not having a car works for you, it does not mean that it will work for everyone else.
    were you buying all your kitchen stuff in the city centre though? i know we're going a little OT, but we're mixing up the two topics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,633 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I could see a good thing with permits for entry to city.

    And enforce like up north and across the water with anpr.

    The bus only thing won't work as there is no enforcement as look at college green no guards there at all the last few months but the very odd day for a little while.

    Essential vehicle users and those that live in the area should have permit to allow travel and then have off peak where people can enter.

    Again enforcement is something needed badly or it won't work.

    There needs to be extremely frequent services and I believe there should be more xpresso services all day long. Proper parking locations outside city boundary and free parking to get more on transport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Not everyone can afford to pay for everything to be delivered so collecting it in the car might be the only option.

    Yes, true. I do virtually all my shopping by bike, but every now and again I'll get lazy and take a lift with a friend to get a few slabs of Saskia water (9kg per slab) and of tins of tomatoes, baked beans and the like - though mostly I'll just stick these in the pannier randomly.

    And when my very creaky and ancient dog needs to go to the vet for her shot, a friend usually gives me a lift. And when I finally get around to buying an induction hob as has been my plan for a couple of years, the electrician will probably give me a lift to collect it.

    But (apart from the poor oul' bowler) these tend to be once every three or four months, if that; most stuff is done on the bike, by me or others in the family.

    But yeah, if I were doing up a kitchen and had to collect multiple tins of paint and varnish, packs of tiles, etc, I'd probably hire a car for the day or couple of days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    bk wrote: »
    hatrickpatrick I've lived 15 years in Dublin now, don't own a car (could easily afford one if I wanted) and yet I own my own place and it is full of all the same things that everyone elses is!

    Sofa, beds, kitchen appliances, TV, etc. Went to a shop, picked them out and most delivered to my home for free or something minimal like €10.

    Medium sized electrical items and toys, mostly order from Amazon, delivered to my door for free.

    I pay Tesco €10 per month for unlimited grocery deliveries right to my door, it is brilliant. I also have lots of nice small grocery, veg, bakery and butcher shops 5 minutes walk away.

    Clothes and shoes I would shop in town for, but they don't typically weigh much, one or two bags are super easy to take home in the bus.

    To be honest, you are being very closed minded if you think you need a car to do any of the above.

    Some people don't like getting food etc delivered rather than going to the shop themselves. Some people, as I've repeatedly pointed out, work in jobs which require them to transport a lot of large items on a regular basis. I ask you again, how do you support a band should play a function room in somewhere like Workmans on the quays, if they can't bring a van that has their PA system, drums, amps etc in it? Do you suppose that all professional film crews should start using handicams? What about people with disabilities?

    I don't own a car either and I get the DART to everything, but if I wasn't able to get the occasional lift into down when the DART is f*cked, I'd be screwed. And taxis are not a solution when they're so ridiculously expensive. I have relatives with disabilities for whom getting on packed public transport at rush hour is an absolute nightmare, should they be forced to do this?

    And as I've said repeatedly, the busses and trains end too early in the evening and aren't frequent enough while they are running to be convenient. I use them but it's an absolute pain in the hole that if you arrive at a DART station at any time of the day and see your dart leave just before you arrive, you know you'll be waiting 15 minutes at a minimum. Should someone who misses the last DART at night time at a ridiculously early 11.30PM be forced to shell out €30 for a taxi?

    Let's be clear: I'm not opposed to the idea that most people should use public transport, I'm opposed to (a) implying that it will work for every person and every profession, and more importantly (b) that people should be forced to do so even when public transport is totally inadequate, as it is now. Longer hours and higher frequency, come back to me - until then, this idea is completely barmy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Yes, true. I do virtually all my shopping by bike, but every now and again I'll get lazy and take a lift with a friend to get a few slabs of Saskia water (9kg per slab) and of tins of tomatoes, baked beans and the like - though mostly I'll just stick these in the pannier randomly.

    And when my very creaky and ancient dog needs to go to the vet for her shot, a friend usually gives me a lift. And when I finally get around to buying an induction hob as has been my plan for a couple of years, the electrician will probably give me a lift to collect it.

    But (apart from the poor oul' bowler) these tend to be once every three or four months, if that; most stuff is done on the bike, by me or others in the family.

    But yeah, if I were doing up a kitchen and had to collect multiple tins of paint and varnish, packs of tiles, etc, I'd probably hire a car for the day or couple of days.

    See, this is what I'm talking about. Talking about a world in which private transport is never an option in a capital city is completely mental.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Slightly off topic , probably more for bargain alerts.

    Unlimited parking with a Premier Card in Q-Park Setanta Car Park for €4,200 ex VAT per year.

    or https://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    bk wrote: »
    What?! Amazon delivers most stuff for free. Nearly anything you can dream of is on Amazon!

    And IME Amazon is MUCH cheaper then Irish brick and mortars stores.

    And of course, nothing stopping you from driving to Blachardstown, etc.

    But you will still need a car to go to the sorting office/depot to collect all these boxes that they could not deliver because you were in work..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    I ask you again, how do you support a band should play a function room in somewhere like Workmans on the quays, if they can't bring a van that has their PA system, drums, amps etc in it? Do you suppose that all professional film crews should start using handicams? What about people with disabilities?

    I don't think anyone is saying there should be no exceptions. What people including myself are saying is that the exceptions should be exceptions, and driving into town shouldn't be the norm.
    And as I've said repeatedly, the busses and trains end too early in the evening and aren't frequent enough while they are running to be convenient. I use them but it's an absolute pain in the hole that if you arrive at a DART station at any time of the day and see your dart leave just before you arrive, you know you'll be waiting 15 minutes at a minimum. Should someone who misses the last DART at night time at a ridiculously early 11.30PM be forced to shell out €30 for a taxi?

    I hear you, brother! Public transport is also ludicrously expensive; this is because, like many public services in Ireland, it's badly underfunded. After all, you can buy a carnet of 10 bus tickets in Paris for €14 and use each ticket for an hour on any and all transilien (in-the-city-of-Paris, which is quite an area) public transport except the RER (suburban trains). Dublin's (and other Irish cities') enormous and constantly rising transport fees, and Ireland's constant underfunding of the public-service essentials of transport, education and health… oh, I'll stop…


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