Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

CMOTDibbler · 15-02-2017 06:02PM

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

He picks the wrong times to come up out of the line looked good doing it last week against a bunch of part timer's he won't get away with it against France or Wales and I really fear for him if he's picked against England they will make mince meat of him in my eyes. He's overhyped doesn't pass enough runs good lines at times but not consistently. For the style of rugby ireland play he is the wrong fit in my eyes mccloskey is a much better option

If he picks the wrong times to shoot out of the line, you'd think he'd have a bigger missed tackle count than his current 3 out of 29 or 30.

Are you basing all this on his defence for the first Scottish try? Because if so, you're missing the point that he was actually going for the ball there.

The real mccoy 91 · 15-02-2017 06:09PM

Buer wrote:

Good thing they play different positions.

Left that part out obviously a rejig would be needed but it's the better option in my eyes.

CMOTDibbler wrote:

If he picks the wrong times to shoot out of the line, you'd think he'd have a bigger missed tackle count than his current 3 out of 29 or 30.

CMOTDibbler wrote:

Are you basing all this on his defence for the first Scottish try? Because if so, you're missing the point that he was actually going for the ball there.

No not basing it on the Scotland try but that was a sign of things to come in my eyes. His timing on shooting up has and will cost more tries as it breaks the rest of the defence and leaves gaps that world class teams will expose. With a fully fit squad I don't think he gets near it would be 3rd or 4th choice. Like I said he has time on his side and I don't want to write him off fully but he's overhyped and very small for the position in my eyes

CMOTDibbler · 15-02-2017 06:32PM

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

No not basing it on the Scotland try but that was a sign of things to come in my eyes. His timing on shooting up has and will cost more tries as it breaks the rest of the defence and leaves gaps that world class teams will expose. With a fully fit squad I don't think he gets near it would be 3rd or 4th choice. Like I said he has time on his side and I don't want to write him off fully but he's overhyped and very small for the position in my eyes

How is it a sign of things to come? He shot up to intercept the ball in a three on one overlap. If there's more of that to come, then your attention needs to be directed elsewhere; towards the players who left that wing exposed for example. There's only one occasion that a try has been scored after he shot up and that's the one I referred to and which you have just denied as being the case. Which is it?

As for being overhyped, that's purely subjective and has nothing to do with how he plays rugby and his size shouldn't be an issue, he's 6'2" and heading for 15 stone.

And if he's 3rd or 4th choice, I'd like to know who you believe is ahead of him. Given that Payne would probably be first choice.

Dave_The_Sheep · 15-02-2017 06:32PM

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

... and very small for the position in my eyes

He's approx 92/93kg and 6 ft 1/2 inches, and on the way up.

On the other hand, the previous incumbent was also ~93kg, while being a few inches shorter.

I don't think size is an issue.

P.Walnuts · 15-02-2017 06:51PM

This probably shouldn't very going on in the Lions thread and he will need 3 stormers to even come into contention imo

But let's get it straight he's not to small for international rugby as it is, never mind when he fills out fully.

CMOTDibbler · 15-02-2017 07:37PM

P.Walnuts wrote: »

This probably shouldn't very going on in the Lions thread and he will need 3 stormers to even come into contention imo

But let's get it straight he's not to small for international rugby as it is, never mind when he fills out fully.

Absolutely. I don't think he should really be in the conversation yet, at least until he has the next three matches behind him.

He's interesting to watch though, as like Jack Conan and other young players he's part of a new professional generation if I can call it that. The attention to detail and work ethic appears to be very high with these guys and they don't appear to be remotely satisfied with getting provincial caps and being paid to play rugby.

swiwi_ · 15-02-2017 07:51PM

.ak wrote: »

Whilst he hasn't impressed me in white yet he's certainly not a one trick pony. For me he's one of the best footballers playing 8 in the British isles, he's got a brilliant array of skills and is just a great all round rugby player. He's been the centre of everything good at wasps over the past couple of seasons.

I never watched him play for Auckland, and at club level I've only seen him play a couple of Wasps European Cup games, where he was grand. So my sample is small.

But the last 2 English games he was a poor man's Vunipola or CJ Stander IMO.

In no particular order Heaslip, Picamoles, Moriarty, Strauss, and to a lesser extent Parisse have impressed me more at 8 in the 6N.

England seem to use him as the cliched "South Sea Islander" muscle man, but he was fairly owned by the Welsh back row in that first half last week.

bilston · 15-02-2017 08:39PM

I have to ask, why are so many people selecting Joseph at 13? I don't get it. Other than there aren't really many other options?

I still think the Lions midfield will be...

Sexton, Farrell, Henshaw.

The only player likely to break that trio is Scott Williams, and if Sexton isn't fit, Farrell moves to 10 with Williams coming at 12.

Buer · 15-02-2017 08:56PM

bilston wrote: »

I have to ask, why are so many people selecting Joseph at 13? I don't get it. Other than there aren't really many other options?

Joseph isn't even a certain to be on the plane at this point. He'll probably bring 4 dedicated centres along with 3 outhalves, one of which will be Farrell.

Of the 4 centres, I think he'll almost certainly bring Davies, Williams and Henshaw. After that, it's completely up in the air. Joseph isn't a physically imposing player. He's smaller than Jones, Dunbar and Ringrose.

He's also having a very, very quiet 6N so far. He hasn't scored a try, made a break or beaten a man in two games. He's not involved much at all.

I think it's going to be a straight shoot out between Joseph, Ringrose and one of the Scottish centres. They're going to suffer from Laidlaw being out though. If one of those guys finishes the tournament really well, I think they'll get a spot on the plane.

But not a hope Joseph is in the actual match day jersey unless something special happens between now and then. I think the starting spots are already down to Davies, Farrell, Williams and Henshaw with Farrell quite possibly to start at 10.

pickarooney · 16-02-2017 12:45AM

Joseph will score 5 tries in the next match (unless they put Daly in there for a change)

Buer · 16-02-2017 09:00AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Joseph will score 5 tries in the next match (unless they put Daly in there for a change)

There's a good chance they will. Joseph was already benched for Daly for the South Africa game in the autumn and Jones has spoken of his aim to rotate the team for this game.

If he is benched, his Lions hopes will take a big blow.

Daly, on the other hand, is quietly moving into contention particularly given his flexibility and goal kicking.

English Lurker · 16-02-2017 10:08AM

Buer wrote: »

There's a good chance they will. Joseph was already benched for Daly for the South Africa game in the autumn and Jones has spoken of his aim to rotate the team for this game.

If he is benched, his Lions hopes will take a big blow.

Daly, on the other hand, is quietly moving into contention particularly given his flexibility and goal kicking.

Only happened because Joseph missed training due to a groin niggle and he was straight back in the next game. There's a lot of press rumours about possible rotation for this game but none mentioning Joseph I've seen so far. Could happen I suppose, but Joseph appears to be nailed on, and I'd be very surprised if he wasn't back for the serious games.

Not that what happens vs Italy should have too much bearing anyway.

Joseph is looking quiet for England because its too easy for the opposition to focus on him and I hope Gatland is wise enough to look past that. I think he'd look great outside a Henshaw-type player. What I do like about him as a potential Lion is how defensively reliable he's been for England, Payne is the only other 13 I can think of who looks as safe there. I'd be sorely disappointed if Gatland brought Williams and Davies.

He's also suffering a bit because no Vunipola. If I had a pound for every time I've seen/heard an England fan bemoan the absence of Vunipola, I think I could buy the lot of you a round. Wouldn't even have to be somewhere cheap. Hughes had a decent game on Saturday but he's simply not the same player. Maybe I'm letting Vunipola's reputation grow in his absence, but when I look at the England team without him, its hard to shake the feeling that he's the best he is at what he does.

errlloyd · 16-02-2017 10:10AM

English Lurker wrote: »

I'd be sorely disappointed if Gatland brought Williams and Davies.

I think we understand the pain of Gatland picking two Welsh centres better than most.

.ak · 16-02-2017 10:17AM

I have an absolute man crush on Scott Williams, I'm biased, but I can't see a flaw in his game in terms of skill and technique. He can be a little hesitant at times but he's just a brilliant all round rugby player blessed with power, speed, strength, soft hands and a wicked turn of pace for a big centre. He's the proper mouldy of a traditional centre too; square, with a good centre of gravity. But most of all I admire his work rate, I'd say his first arrival stats are massive.

Oddly ebough tho I don't think he'll make the test squad. I think Henshaw' footballing ability will see him make it ahead of him.

Right now I have no idea who'll play 13 but I'd love to see Joseph there with either Williams or Henshaw inside.

CMOTDibbler · 16-02-2017 10:19AM

.ak wrote: »

I have an absolute man crush on Scott Williams, I'm biased, but I can't see a flaw in his game in terms of skill and technique. He can be a little hesitant at times but he's just a brilliant all round rugby player blessed with power, speed, strength, soft hands and a wicked turn of pace for a big centre. He's the proper mouldy of a traditional centre too; square, with a good centre of gravity. But most of all I admire his work rate, I'd say his first arrival stats are massive.

Oddly ebough tho I don't think he'll make the test squad. I think Henshaw' footballing ability will see him make it ahead of him.

Right now I have no idea who'll play 13 but I'd love to see Joseph there with either Williams or Henshaw inside.

Bit of a cold there .ak?

Lemsip ftw

Webbs · 16-02-2017 10:30AM

English Lurker wrote: »

Maybe I'm letting Vunipola's reputation grow in his absence, but when I look at the England team without him, its hard to shake the feeling that he's the best he is at what he does.

If thats as a ball carrying No8 then dont think many would disagree with him being the best, he is impossible to stop at the gain line.
However Faletau and Heaslip, would be ahead of him in an all round game.

Buer · 16-02-2017 10:31AM

Given the fact that pretty much every centre who toured in 2013 aside from Davies is out of the reckoning, I'd expect Williams to be in with a good chance. There are a number of spots available for centre. Davies is probably on the plane. I'd be surprised if Henshaw isn't also.

Williams is a good player. Is he a Lion? I'm not sure but he's in the mix. There's a lack of 4 clear candidates like there was in 2013 with BOD, Tuilagi, Roberts and Davies. Williams was on the NZ tour last summer but didn't get a start. Gatland might not be enough of a fan to bring him.

I would have Roberts as an outsider but stranger things have happened. Gatland is clearly a big fan and he's got a big history with the Lions. But Howley has dropped him and, as backs coach, he'll surely have a say in what centres are selected.

The final three games of the 6N are really going to be the deciding factor in who travels in those last couple of spots for 12 and 13.

cack_jonnolly · 16-02-2017 03:58PM

Paul O'Connell has named Heaslip at 6 in the Lions XV he picked based on round 2 of the 6n. O'Brien and Morarty the other two in the backrow he selected.

Wang Kerr · 16-02-2017 04:47PM

cack_jonnolly wrote: »

Paul O'Connell has named Heaslip at 6 in the Lions XV he picked based on round 2 of the 6n. O'Brien and Morarty the other two in the backrow he selected.

He named Heaslip at 8 , not 6....Just did it a bit arse ways, listen to it again

ClanofLams · 16-02-2017 06:35PM

bilston wrote: »

I have to ask, why are so many people selecting Joseph at 13? I don't get it. Other than there aren't really many other options?

I still think the Lions midfield will be...

Sexton, Farrell, Henshaw.

The only player likely to break that trio is Scott Williams, and if Sexton isn't fit, Farrell moves to 10 with Williams coming at 12.

Agreed. That trio is the best, fitness providing of course. If Sexton doesn't make it I think it's quite likely to be Ford Farrell Henshaw. Farrell & Henshaw will be a really exciting combo if that comes to pass.

.ak · 16-02-2017 08:54PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Bit of a cold there .ak?

Lemsip ftw

Have you got something for gammy fingers?

pickarooney · 16-02-2017 09:04PM

You leave my Gammy alone!

Webbs · 17-02-2017 10:51AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

Agreed. That trio is the best, fitness providing of course. If Sexton doesn't make it I think it's quite likely to be Ford Farrell Henshaw. Farrell & Henshaw will be a really exciting combo if that comes to pass.

I can't see Ford getting ahead of Biggar after last weekends showing

sydthebeat · 17-02-2017 01:20PM

Webbs wrote: »

I can't see Ford getting ahead of Biggar after last weekends showing

i cant see ford starting a test match

id see biggar, sexton AND farrell as better options at 10 against NZ

Buer · 17-02-2017 02:43PM

With Gatland's fondness for players who can physically influence the game through power, Ford is an unlikely test selection. He might well go on tour as someone that has formed a good partnership with Farrell but I'd be surprised if a 5'9", 13 stone guy was selected against NZ.

I think Biggar, Sexton (if fit) and Farrell will travel as the outhalves. All big guys and well able to handle themselves physically.

English Lurker · 19-02-2017 02:29AM

Most England fans I know would play Ford over Farrell at 10 every time against every team (issue of goal kicking aside). In games against serious opposition in serious circumstances* from start of 2014 to end summer 2016, we've won 8 and lost 1 of the games where Ford started and played at least a half at 10, and won 2 and lost 6 of the games where Farrell started and played at least a half at 10. Our average points difference a match in that period was +7.66 with Ford and -2.25 with Farrell, scoring 2.55 tries a game with Ford and 1.875 tries a game with Farrell.

Admittedly, these stats are a little crude, particularly when you consider Ford played no games against NZ in this period and has had more games under Jones, but that's still a really big difference and reflects what most England fans I know think, which is that with Ford on the pitch our back line plays a lot better and we're not significantly more pourous in defence.

Now, maybe Farrell's a lot better at 10 now than he was back in 2014/15. But if he isn't, Ford remains a no-brainer at 10. And if Biggar's significantly better or different than Farrell as a 10, I've yet to see it. Personally I thought last weekend was very Farrell-esque from Biggar. Lot of prominent moments in defence, few nice bits of opportunistic play and supporting lines when the game broke down, and very little to help his team unpick a set defence. Ford bossed the waves of attacking pressure that broke Wales down for our two tries.

I know which I'd rather have and that goes double against the All Blacks as you'll be performing miracles to keep them under 20 points. A Biggar-led team couldn't even stick 20 on England at home. Since 2016, in their 8 games against strong but beatable opposition**, they've scored 20 or more points only 3 times. By comparison, a Russell-led Scotland has managed that 4 times in their 7 shots at a similar standard in the same time frame. And Scotland offer nothing like the same platform at the moment.

Here's hoping Gatland sees Ford as the player he so desperately hoped Priestland was but if he doesn't, I hope he takes Russell and Jackson.

*(Defined that time as Sanzar and Eng/Wal/Ire/Fra in 6N, WC and Tour matches only; WC and tour warm-ups don't count)

**(Defined that time as SA/Aus/Arg/Eng/Wal/Ire/Fra in 6N, WC and Tour matches only, as holding Biggar responsible for 3 games away in NZ that Russell didn't play would be mean).

CatFromHue · 19-02-2017 03:28AM

The ABs will be available to the Blues and the Crusaders for their games.

They're games 2 and 3 on the tour, game one is against the NZ BaaBaas and game 7 is the first test.

**** just got real yo!!

Clegg · 25-02-2017 09:06PM

North isn't playing well enough to be selected and hasn't in a few years. He'll tour because of the Gatland connection but he's not guaranteed to start the tests.

Clegg · 25-02-2017 09:06PM

Double.post

Tigerandahalf · 25-02-2017 09:29PM

Halfpenny had a mixed bag today at 15. He missed a crucial kick at goal and dropped a ball or two. He is an excellent last line tackler though which he showed again today.

Hogg played some great stuff today but he is capable of some notable blunders with clearing kicks and making tackles. His hands for the last try were superb though.

Tommy Seymour played very well again today. He even fielded a difficult high ball which wouldn't be his strength so he looks to be a solid contender.

Worrying for the Lions is the lack of quality in the backs in general.

One guy to watch as a bolter is a recent rugby league convert Denny Solomona of the Sale Sharks. He is only 23 and scored a hatrick of tries for them at the weekend against Wasps. He has also scored a handful before this. Pace, step and great finishing ability he could be the type of player the Lions need.
https://youtu.be/XA-UqJ3T8pw

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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