The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Safehands · 12-02-2017 09:51PM

J C wrote: »

It was actually the most humane thing to do ... Mankind had become Irredeemably evil.

Yeah, it's a line used by some supporters of the death penalty, and some other psychopathic killers of young children.

hinault · 12-02-2017 10:01PM

Safehands wrote: »

God decided to execute them all because they were bad, which some people may applaude.

Who's applauding?

Safehands wrote: »

He did it again with Sodom and Gomorrah, when Noah's decendant's started to misbehave like their ancestors. So the Loving, Merciful God decided to do them in, not by water, this time but by fire.

God warned the people of Sodom & Gomorrah several times to mend their ways.
The people ignored God after receiving several fair warnings.

If God doesn't warn people He's a dictator, if God warns people but they deliberately ignore His warning, He's a dictator.:rolleyes:

Safehands wrote: »

Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler, to mention a few, who were all allowed to live and kill millions. They were not 'spiritually executed'.

Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler, abused the free will given to them by God.

All of them are dwelling for eternity in the Hell that you don't believe in.
Using your rationale none of them should be punished by God for what they did.

Safehands wrote: »

Not at all. He proved he arbitrarily supported it a few times.

Nope,

Vengeful autocratic God would exterminate, you me and everyone else here,
for the slightest transgression.

We receive God's mercy instead.

J C · 12-02-2017 10:29PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But how does that leave free-will?

Is it just freewill up to a point?

... to a point, an extreme point, in the case of the Flood, where there were only six people who still loved and respected God left on Earth ...
... and in the case of the Second Coming where no life will survive, if Jesus, doesn't intervene.

Matthew 24:14-24New International Version (NIV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

J C · 12-02-2017 10:33PM

Safehands wrote: »

Yeah, it's a line used by some supporters of the death penalty, and some other psychopathic killers of young children.

Obviously incorrectly used in these cases ... but it was God who brought on the Flood - and it does seem that things were indeed in extremis in regard to rampant evil, at the time of the Flood.

Leroy42 · 12-02-2017 10:51PM

So JC, how do you reconcile the seeming blame on Free-Will to explain away mans ills but then also agree that on a least one occasion (the flood), although an argument can be made about Adam & Eve as well, God decided that enough was enough and Free-will was no longer an option and people needed to be taught a lesson?

Does the killing of 6 millions Jews by Hitler not constitute hell on earth? What about the wars themselves, or Pol Pot, Stalin, the flu epidemic etc etc. Apparently these were not sufficient for God to get involved.

Or when a young baby is born with severe disabilities, or people suffer terrible burns, again God is unmoved.

Leroy42 · 12-02-2017 10:57PM

J C wrote: »

Obviously incorrectly used in these cases ... but it was God who brought on the Flood - and it does seem that things were indeed in extremis in regard to rampant evil, at the time of the Flood.

Are you really suggesting that everyone on the planet, including all the animals, were so evil as beyond redemption?

More evil than Hitler? We know that the Nazi's developed some of the most efficient extermination techniques ever so whatever was going on in that time (over 4000 years ago) could not possibly have been as bad.

And that in the midst of all of this evil, Noah and he family were the only good people left and so the only ones worth saving? Who taught Noah to be good and how come none of the rest of the tribe/village etc were in part good?

J C · 12-02-2017 11:02PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that everyone on the planet, including all the animals, were so evil as beyond redemption?

More evil than Hitler? We know that the Nazi's developed some of the most efficient extermination techniques ever so whatever was going on in that time (over 4000 years ago) could not possibly have been as bad.

And that in the midst of all of this evil, Noah and he family were the only good people left and so the only ones worth saving? Who taught Noah to be good and how come none of the rest of the tribe/village etc were in part good?

The scale and depth of the anti-deluvian evil seems to be unprecedented right up to today.

Genesis 6:4-6New International Version (NIV)

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

Leroy42 · 12-02-2017 11:15PM

Except for Noah and his family who remained pure? And what about the animals? And the other peoples in other parts of the world had somehow become to act exactly the same, even though even today with huge globalisation and instant communications, we have massive differences between countries in the same continent never mind across the globe.

So if you take that line 5 is true then you must take 6, that he regretted that he had made humans beings on earth.

So he is not infallible and all knowing then. If he was he wouldn't regret it as it was right, and he wouldn't look back (regretted) since he can foresee the future.

You believe in an infallible god that makes mistakes, and that all problems with man are due to our sin and free will, which god has removed whenever he felt like it?

There is an inherent contradiction in your position. Either he made a mistake, and hence is not infallible and omniscient, or he doesn't value free-will above all else meaning there has to be questions about why is continues to stand idly by when such evil as Hitler and malaria, famine, tidal waves, earthquakes kill millions of innocent people

Safehands · 12-02-2017 11:35PM

The truth is that we can criticise the contents of the Old Testament all night long, with the most coherent, obvious and logical observations. It will make no difference to those who hold the contents to be true. They will not be swayed, for any reason. They believe in giants, in men living for 900 years, in talking snakes and in a universe which, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary, is only 10,000 years old. Logically minded people don't believe these things, so they are branded as atheists.
But it is interesting to hear these believer's points of view.

J C · 12-02-2017 11:43PM

Safehands wrote: »

The truth is that we can criticise the contents of the Old Testament all night long, with the most coherent, obvious and logical observations. It will make no difference to those who hold the contents to be true. They will not be swayed, for any reason. They believe in giants, in men living for 900 years, in talking snakes and in a universe which, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary, is only 10,000 years old. Logically minded people don't believe these things, so they are branded as atheists.
But it is interesting to hear these believer's points of view.

All of these things can be (and have been) explained logically.

J C · 12-02-2017 11:53PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So he is not infallible and all knowing then. If he was he wouldn't regret it as it was right, and he wouldn't look back (regretted) since he can foresee the future.

You believe in an infallible god that makes mistakes, and that all problems with man are due to our sin and free will, which god has removed whenever he felt like it?

There is an inherent contradiction in your position. Either he made a mistake, and hence is not infallible and omniscient, or he doesn't value free-will above all else meaning there has to be questions about why is continues to stand idly by when such evil as Hitler and malaria, famine, tidal waves, earthquakes kill millions of innocent people

God is omniscient and He allows us to exercise free-will ... but like everything, there are limits ... when the end of all life is nigh.

... and Joanna Lumley is on ITV 3 at the moment ... searching for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat.:)

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 12:06AM

J C wrote: »

God is omniscient
J and He allows us to exercise free-will ... but like everything, there are limits ... when the end of all life is nigh.

... and Joanna Lumley is on ITV 3 at the moment ... searching for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat.:)

Does not compute

Safehands · 13-02-2017 12:10AM

J C wrote: »

All of these things can be (and have been) explained logically.

JC is a first class exponent of the people I was referring to. Very intelligent and can quote the bible at will. But, I don't believe he understands what logic really means, in the normal, logical context.

J C · 13-02-2017 12:38AM

Safehands wrote: »

JC is a first class exponent of the people I was referring to. Very intelligent and can quote the bible at will. But, I don't believe he understands what logic really means, in the normal, logical context.

Where has my logic failed ?

J C · 13-02-2017 12:38AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Does not compute

Why?

Safehands · 13-02-2017 12:44AM

J C wrote: »

Where has my logic failed ?

Good question, What about Noah living till he was 900 years old?

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 12:48AM

J C wrote: »

Why?

J C wrote: »

God is omniscient and He allows us to exercise free-will ... but like everything, there are limits ... when the end of all life is nigh.

... and Joanna Lumley is on ITV 3 at the moment ... searching for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat.:)

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/omniscient

having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

So unlimited = limits?

hinault · 13-02-2017 12:52AM

Safehands wrote: »

Good question, What about Noah living till he was 900 years old?

You're applying the measurement of the Gregorian calendar that determines how a long a year is, to a time when the writer had no access to the same calendar.

Safehands · 13-02-2017 01:06AM

hinault wrote: »

You're applying the measurement of the Gregorian calendar that determines how a long a year is, to a time when the writer had no access to the same calendar.

Here we go, I'm not actually.
JC and I have jousted about this before. Nothing to do with the Gregorian calander. The story talks about his age in relation to re-populating the Earth, over a period of about 900 years, after the flood. Totally preposterous of course, as is the whole flood tale, but believed by believers notheless.

JC, taking two of every animimal on earth into the ark is another example of something which also defies logic. I'm not denying that you believe it, it's just not logical.

hinault · 13-02-2017 01:11AM

Safehands wrote: »

Here we go, I'm not actually.
JC and I have jousted about this before. Nothing to do with the Gregorian calander. The story talks about his age in relation to re-populating the Earth, over a period of about 900 years, after the flood. Totally preposterous of course, as is the whole flood tale, but believed by believers notheless.
.

You're still busy trying to apply a Gregorian calendar measurement for a solar year, to a era when no such measure was applied. Preposterous.

Safehands · 13-02-2017 01:14AM

hinault wrote: »

You're still busy trying to apply a Gregorian calendar measurement for a solar year, to a era when no such measure was applied. Preposterous.

I agree. It is preposterous. I'd never suggest it was true.

hinault · 13-02-2017 01:18AM

Safehands wrote: »

I'd never suggest it was true.

Like all of your posts.

Panrich · 13-02-2017 01:21AM

J C wrote: »

It was actually the most humane thing to do ... Mankind had become Irredeemably evil ... it was Hell on Earth before the Flood.

There comes a point when God draws the line ... the Flood was one such time ... and Armageddon will be another.

If only he could have seen it coming, he would have no cause for regrets.

Leroy42 · 13-02-2017 09:28AM

J C wrote: »

God is omniscient and He allows us to exercise free-will ... but like everything, there are limits ... when the end of all life is nigh.

... and Joanna Lumley is on ITV 3 at the moment ... searching for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat.:)

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

But if you accept that God will get directly involved when he decides that evil has become too much, why would he not do it for the cases I mentioned.

Hitler and the concentration camps, Stalin and his treatment of his countrymen and women, Pol Pot. The senseless and futile loss of life in the trench warfare of WW1.

Why sit idly by when the tsunami struck Indonesia and killed all those people. Why allow the people of Pompeii to be wiped out by a Volcano.

Yet he decided that the Romans occupying Palestine was a good reason to send his son down?

By your own admission God has the ability to take direct action, so how can you reconcile a loving God with one that seems to accept suffering and death with no reason.

How can you accept a God that intervenes to destroy whole communities and even wipes out all living things on the planet yet won't step in to help millions being exterminated. Won't help with massive famine in Africa brought on by lack of rain? Sits by when Bubonic plague wipes out millions across Europe.

Safehands · 13-02-2017 01:32PM

hinault wrote: »

Like all of your posts.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. All my posts cast doubt on stories in the Bible. But then I suppose a lot of them are just not believable, are they?

J C · 13-02-2017 10:13PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

But if you accept that God will get directly involved when he decides that evil has become too much, why would he not do it for the cases I mentioned.

Hitler and the concentration camps, Stalin and his treatment of his countrymen and women, Pol Pot. The senseless and futile loss of life in the trench warfare of WW1.

Why sit idly by when the tsunami struck Indonesia and killed all those people. Why allow the people of Pompeii to be wiped out by a Volcano.

Yet he decided that the Romans occupying Palestine was a good reason to send his son down?

By your own admission God has the ability to take direct action, so how can you reconcile a loving God with one that seems to accept suffering and death with no reason.

How can you accept a God that intervenes to destroy whole communities and even wipes out all living things on the planet yet won't step in to help millions being exterminated. Won't help with massive famine in Africa brought on by lack of rain? Sits by when Bubonic plague wipes out millions across Europe.

Although quite bad for the people caught up in these events ... none of the above incidents threatened the end of all life ... or were in a world where every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time ... as in the days of Noah.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 10:15PM

J C wrote: »

Although quite bad for the people caught up in these events ... none of the above incidents threatened the end of all life ... or were in a world where every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time ... as in the days of Noah.

How does an unborn child in it's mothers womb have evil thoughts?

J C · 13-02-2017 10:18PM

Panrich wrote: »

If only he could have seen it coming, he would have no cause for regrets.

It is a 'turn of phrase' to express God's deep revulsion at what Mankind had become.
He didn't literally regret that He had created Man ... as Noah and his family weren't part of the dissolute Humanity all around them.

J C · 13-02-2017 10:20PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How does an unborn child in it's mothers womb have evil thoughts?

Who says that there were unborn Human children at that time?

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-02-2017 10:21PM

J C wrote: »

Who says that there were unborn Human children at that time?

Are you saying that with all the debauchery that was going on that there wasn't a single pregnant woman? Do you just make up your excuses as you go along? :rolleyes:

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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