Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

swiwi_ wrote: »

Was Davies really that good?

The Welsh seem to be jizzing their pants over his performance.

Admittedly I got bored with the match and abandoned it about the 70 minute mark (Italy - yawn), but I can't say I was thinking to myself that I was watching a masterclass at 10 by any means.

My pants are clean ...... last time i looked ...... [got the lucky red ones ready for Saturday too].

As I said previously it was a nice cameo from Davies but I'm not convinced he'll start on Saturday if Biggar is available for selection.

Saying that ... as an ex fly-half ..... Sam Davies is the future for Wales. He has the full range of skills and is one of those players who seem to have a lot of time on the ball. The general thinking behind selecting him over Biggar is that he takes the ball to the line and has superior vision and distribution skills. In other words .... as a centre or outside back he is the type of 10 you like to play outside.

Personally I'd be tempted to start him. I think England are vulnerable if Wales are able to play a wide game. [France showed this numerous times on Saturday] .... I would also say this about Ireland too.

As we enter a 2 week break now, it would be interesting to see how selction would shape up based purely on the opening two games.

I think guys like Launchbury are working their way onto the plane (although I would have had him on it anyway) and someone like Moriarty could now go ahead of Faletau who people had nailed on last year. The fact that he's going well at 8 and has already gone well at flanker against NZ is a big plus for him.

The others in the back row? Who knows. Stander probably particularly given his versatility. I can see one or both of the Welsh flankers going. The English back row is going well but is there a stand out? Haskell was that man but is on the bench now. Itoje will go as a lock who covers flanker, I imagine.....Vunipola is a tricky one. Out of sight, out of mind. He has no history with Gatland. If he gets fit and gets a good run in the Champions Cup, he's in the mix. If he comes back overweight and doesn't hit the ground running, he'll struggle to get on the plane. Heaslip has gone really well and has big history with Gatland and the Lions which will help him.

Scrum half is going to be a curious one. I was a massive supporter of Laidlaw going last time as a 9/10 option (especially given the clusterf*ck of Hogg covering 10) and I think he should still go this time. However, the coaching team that didn't rate him last time is the one that's in place again this time. But I think Ben Youngs and that intercept on the Welsh line was a big moment and negative for him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Laidlaw get the nod. Neither Murray nor Webb are setting the world alight right now.

Hooker is going to be a problem area. Ken Owens has gone well and is right in the mix now. Wales have a habit of providing these hookers who play well for 1-2 seasons at test level, get a tour and their careers fall off a cliff shortly after. Richard Hibbard....Matthew Rees....Ken Owens? Hartley will travel and is currently the competition for the jersey based purely on the 6N....but....well...Hartley.

Outhalf isn't a position of strength right now. Sexton needs to get fit. Farrell will go and most likely will play a fair bit at 10 and possibly be the test 10 also. Biggar went well yesterday and, if he starts against France and goes well, Jackson is going to push himself into the conversation. Russell blew it today.

Zebo, Liam Williams and the English wingers are the stand out options there with Hogg being the clear choise at 15 currently. Halfpenny is nothing special at all without his goal kicking and Farrell's excellence there will make him redundant.

Ireland could have three props on the plane. If they can get the edge on the English front row, I think three of them will go.

Despite the opening two rounds, I'm not sure how much Scotland will benefit. Hogg, maybe Dunbar....one of the Gray boys although they were far less effective today. Laidlaw would be a useful player.

I thought before the 6 nations kicked off that Itoje and Jonny Gray were likely to be the second row partnership for the Lions and I think it's still the case TBH. Alun Wyn Jones would have been my pick for the 19 jersey but don't think he's been overly impressive so that could be up for grabs.

I thought Dan Biggar and Webb especially was impressive at the weekend.

Cian Healy who I don't think is a good scrummager went very well against Italy. He will be back on the bench though.

Ken Owens had another solid game. One of their top tacklers. He has good technique too - around the ankles.

Halfpenny I thought had a very solid game. Kicked his goals but his defensive work really stood out. Made a great tackle on the Welsh line to stop a certain try and tidied up a lot of awkward ball. Coming into form.

Elliot Daly also did well for England. Looks to have pace. Be interesting to see how he fares defensively against Ire.

I had hopes for T Bowe but it looks like his boat has sailed.

It is still very early and you can see plenty of players coming up for discussion. Tommy Seymour has been playing very well.

No outright injuries yet either.

AWJ will probably be captain. Would say him and Itoje looking very likely right now.

The Gray boys were far less impressive today. Looked very flat after last week.

George Kruis will have a big say if he can get fit which is an outside bet.

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah Bazzo, AWJ was immense against England
I agree it is between them 3, been really impressed with Richie Grey too, and Launchbry will travel I say so they the 5 Second Rows

Fair enough, I mostly watched that match through the bottom of a pint glass so I'm willing to admit I may not have the greatest recollection of it. :pac:

Buer wrote: »

As we enter a 2 week break now, it would be interesting to see how selction would shape up based purely on the opening two games.

Prop - No change for me. McGrath/Healy/Vunipola, Furlong/Cole/Nel. Marler had a big game Saturday but hasn't changed the order.

Hooker - If lineout travails continue, Best in possible danger. Owens could benefit. Jones talking up prospect of George starting against Italy - I'd have had George on plane to begin with, but think that might be a majority view by end. Best/Hartley/George for me.

Lock - Disappointed by Henderson. Happy to see AWJ back to his best. Him, Launchbury and Lawes were probably three best players on pitch in Eng-Wal. Those three, Itoje and J Gray would be my picks right now. Note - Itoje was actually packing down at lock a lot on Saturday.

Back row - Less full of praise for Moriarty after watching the game again. Carrying wasn't there, even if tackling was. Tipuric and Warburton by comparison had monster games. Really no idea who I pick right now.

Scrum-half - Very disappointed by Murray vs Scotland and Webb vs England. Very disappointed by Youngs in general. Not a comfortable selection right now.

Fly-half - Russell makes a few too many mistakes for my liking. Jackson really taking chance of Sexton's absence for my money. Liking Ford and Farrell for England.

Centres - Plz no Welshmen except maybe Scott Williams. If they want a Welsh sounding guy, Huw Jones is really impressive. Joseph has no little chance to impress but decent defensively. Te'o should get a start at some point. Not sure what I'd plump for here. Henshaw looks good (well duh).

Back three - Liam Williams is the real deal. I'd like Zebo to tour. Cases for Hogg and Seymour. Not sure about England back three. Daly's made a lot of bad back 3 specialist mistakes in his two games, not sure I want him to go. Shame Watson and North have had injury problems.

McGrath - Hartley - Furlong
AW Jones - Launchbury
Itoje - Stander - Tipuric
Murray - Farrell
Henshaw - Joseph
L. Williams - Hogg - Zebo

This is not my guess at a starting XV, but I do think it's a XV of people who are guaranteed a spot on the plane based on combos of their form, versatility and 'credit in the bank'. The back 3 is a bit shaken up at the minute with Daly, Nowell, Seymour not being amazing and North's troubles.

AW Jones
Launchbury
Kruis
Lawes
Itoje
Gray
Gray
Toner
Henderson

Warburton
Moriarty
Tipuric
Faletau
Stander
O'Brien
Heaslip
Haskell
Vunipola
O'Mahoney

Trying to pick 10/11 of those players is tough... and there's decent arguments for all of them! And there's probably more I'm forgetting.

English Lurker wrote: »

I can't say I ever saw Toner as being for the Lions plane. Too many hyper-athletic young bucks around and while you can beat NZ with Toner (duh), I reckon you want guys that can match their athletes stride for stride whenever possible.

That said, if Gatland likes the idea of a rock solid lineout and maul man and reckons he wants one in the squad as an option, Toner is your man and I don't think he's played himself out of contention yet. Not with Ireland's three biggest games of the tournament left.

Also one tiny point in Henderson's favour - you probably want a guy that can genuinely cover lock and back row in the squad. Not an outstanding requirement, but nice to have. Since Itoje's taken a step very smartly backwards when called on to deliver that, I think Henderson is the definite option if Gatland really does want that.

Ridiculously strong position for the Lions though. If every position was like this, I'd be a lot more confident...

Those are Toner's obvious strengths, but he adds to them with his work at the breakdown. In the match against Scotland, he registered 50 ruck involvements which is a record apparently and they weren't just standing at pillar either.

He's no ball carrier but he actually has decent hands (shovels ) and can make a pass on the run which is pretty much above and beyond for a lock. He's a very hard worker on the pitch and anything he can do, he does to the highest possible standard. Another plus is that he's a full 80 player which he can do for test after test and has an impressive injury-free profile.

Three. That French pack is pretty bloody brutal. A good showing against them should count for plenty, particularly after neither England nor Scotland showered themselves in glory up front against them.

And I don't want to dismiss Toner's work rate and ability round the park, but I am looking for that explosive dynamism. Matching them in that regard will be huge. But maybe Gatland thinks differently.

jezzer wrote: »

Has Craig Gilroy made a case for a wildcard inclusion?

By scoring a few tries against Italy? No.