Any advice on lateral raise / rear delt raise

wilkie2006 · 12-02-2017 09:45AM #1

Hi guys

Just looking for some perspective here... am I going too light on these exercises? (my goal is to develop round, bigger delts).

Over the last few months, I've been dropping the weight I lift in favour of a greater focus on form.

At this stage, my lateral raise is 5kg (for sets of 10 reps [down from 12kg a few weeks ago for sets of 6 reps]) and my rear delt raise is 3kg (for sets of 12 reps).

Lateral raise form:
Pressing shoulders down towards the floor.
Lifting from navel-height to shoulder-height (parallel with floor).
Lifting two dumb-bells simultaneously/ bend in elbow/ wrist twisted as if I'm pouring water onto the floor.
The positive portion of lift takes about 1 second, negative portion takes about 3 seconds.
Throughout each rep, I can really feel in my deltoids (lateral fibers).
For each set I do, I'm losing a rep.

Standing rear delt raise form:
Holding two dumb bells at approx. 45-degree angle to the floor
Lifting from perpendicular to parallel (shoulder-height) to the floor.
At top of positive portion, pinching shoulder blades together tightly.
The positive portion of lift takes about 2 seconds, the negative portion about 3 seconds.
For each set (3), can perform 12 reps.

For more context:
My weight = 100kg (20% bf)
My height = 6'
1 rep max bench = 90kg
1 rep max squat = 130kg
1 rep max deadlift = 140kg
1 rep max shoulder press = 50kg

So, to clarify what I'm asking: should I be going heavier on these shoulder isolation exercises (my goal is to develop round, bigger delts)? Alternatively, should I be increasing sets?

Thanks in advance.

Dtp1979 · 12-02-2017 11:33AM

They're assistance excersises. Increase the weight gradually. If you can do these with the same proper form at heavier weights then do.
Try other excersises to. Arnold press, face pulls, Cuban press.

Brian? · 12-02-2017 11:53AM

I'd avoid them. Ask yourself what you are looking to achieve with doing them.

wilkie2006 · 12-02-2017 12:52PM

Brian? wrote: »

I'd avoid them. Ask yourself what you are looking to achieve with doing them.

Yea?

I do shoulder press as my compound exercise. In doing lat raises and rear delt raises, I'm looking to develop more of a "tennis ball" appearance.

What would you suggest in their place, Brian?

Cheers

Brian? · 12-02-2017 04:34PM

Lateral raises have a risk of causing shoulder impingement, not a risk worth taking for your shoulder health IMO.

You are much better off working on getting a stronger military press. I don't think you need to replace them with anything, but that depends on your entire program.

For rear delt raises, no real danger AFAIK. But if you're doing plenty of pulling I wouldn't think they're needed.

Give your strength levels, you could simply concentrate on becoming stronger on your main lifts and eating loads

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 04:43PM

I don't thimk there's that much of an issue with shoulder impingement unless you're doing them particularly badly - a lot of internal rotation amd going a lot over 90 degrees.

I do them as an isolation exercise, along with rear delt flys and find they're a good exercise within the context of the program.

Brian? · 12-02-2017 04:49PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't thimk there's that much of an issue with shoulder impingement unless you're doing them particularly badly - a lot of internal rotation amd going a lot over 90 degrees.

I do them as an isolation exercise, along with rear delt flys and find they're a good exercise within the context of the program.

The majority of people I see doing lateral raises are doing them incorrectly and are definitely harming their shoulders.

It's one of those exercises where I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the risks. A bodyweight military press is going to build some serious delts. Starting isolation work of this kind at the OPs strength level is counter intuitive to me.

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 04:53PM

Brian? wrote: »

The majority of people I see doing lateral raises are doing them incorrectly and are definitely harming their shoulders.

It's one of those exercises where I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the risks. A bodyweight military press is going to build some serious delts. Starting isolation work of this kind at the OPs strength level is counter intuitive to me.

I don't see how isolation work doesnt have a place along with compound work, which would be the primary exercises. He's trying to get more work on the medial and posterior delts. Have had shoulder issues in the past so I'm conscious of not doing exercises that would exacerbate them but lateral raises never have.

Brian? · 12-02-2017 05:35PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't see how isolation work doesnt have a place along with compound work, which would be the primary exercises. He's trying to get more work on the medial and posterior delts. Have had shoulder issues in the past so I'm conscious of not doing exercises that would exacerbate them but lateral raises never have.

That's grand, but I would be of the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits from everything I've read on lateral raises and shoulder impingement.

There is nothing really wrong with throwing in isolation work. I just think the focus should be on strength building for the OP.

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 05:41PM

Brian? wrote: »

That's grand, but I would be of the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits from everything I've read on lateral raises and shoulder impingement.

There is nothing really wrong with throwing in isolation work. I just think the focus should be on strength building for the OP.

I don't disagree for the most part but I think there's more risk from exercises like upright rows. I think lateral raises are pretty low risk.

Absolutely agree on the big compounds being the main events and the focus of their training but i also don't think there's anything wrong with trying to add some work in on the medial and rear delts.

Brian? · 12-02-2017 05:47PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't disagree for the most part but I think there's more risk from exercises like upright rows. I think lateral raises are pretty low risk.

Absolutely agree on the big compounds being the main events and the focus of their training but i also don't think there's anything wrong with trying to add some work in on the medial and rear delts.

Upright rows are a recipe for shoulder explosion alright.

For the rear delts, I do face pulls.

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 05:50PM

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Hi guys

Just looking for some perspective here... am I going too light on these exercises? (my goal is to develop round, bigger delts).

Over the last few months, I've been dropping the weight I lift in favour of a greater focus on form.

At this stage, my lateral raise is 5kg (for sets of 10 reps [down from 12kg a few weeks ago for sets of 6 reps]) and my rear delt raise is 3kg (for sets of 12 reps).

Lateral raise form:
Pressing shoulders down towards the floor.
Lifting from navel-height to shoulder-height (parallel with floor).
Lifting two dumb-bells simultaneously/ bend in elbow/ wrist twisted as if I'm pouring water onto the floor.
The positive portion of lift takes about 1 second, negative portion takes about 3 seconds.
Throughout each rep, I can really feel in my deltoids (lateral fibers).
For each set I do, I'm losing a rep.

Standing rear delt raise form:
Holding two dumb bells at approx. 45-degree angle to the floor
Lifting from perpendicular to parallel (shoulder-height) to the floor.
At top of positive portion, pinching shoulder blades together tightly.
The positive portion of lift takes about 2 seconds, the negative portion about 3 seconds.
For each set (3), can perform 12 reps.

For more context:
My weight = 100kg (20% bf)
My height = 6'
1 rep max bench = 90kg
1 rep max squat = 130kg
1 rep max deadlift = 140kg
1 rep max shoulder press = 50kg

So, to clarify what I'm asking: should I be going heavier on these shoulder isolation exercises (my goal is to develop round, bigger delts)? Alternatively, should I be increasing sets?

Thanks in advance.

What other shoulder exercises do you do?

Lateral and rear delt raises are fine but they are accessories and should complement bigger exercises like overhead pressing.

For what it's worth, you don't need to retract our shoulder blades doing rear delt raises. You only need to be working your rear delts.

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 05:52PM

Brian? wrote: »

Upright rows are a recipe for shoulder explosion alright.

For the rear delts, I do face pulls.

I do like face pulls as well.

They're one that people load up too much on and end up working lots of muscles except the ones they want to.

wilkie2006 · 12-02-2017 09:13PM

Brian? wrote: »

The majority of people I see doing lateral raises are doing them incorrectly and are definitely harming their shoulders.

It's one of those exercises where I just don't see how the benefits outweigh the risks. A bodyweight military press is going to build some serious delts. Starting isolation work of this kind at the OPs strength level is counter intuitive to me.

I've dropped my weight considerably in the last few weeks so as to focus on form. Do you see any errors in the form I've described above in the opening post?

wilkie2006 · 12-02-2017 09:15PM

Brian? wrote: »

There is nothing really wrong with throwing in isolation work. I just think the focus should be on strength building for the OP.

Given the stats in the first post, what kind of numbers do you think I should be aiming for?

wilkie2006 · 12-02-2017 09:17PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What other shoulder exercises do you do?

Lateral and rear delt raises are fine but they are accessories and should complement bigger exercises like overhead pressing.

For what it's worth, you don't need to retract our shoulder blades doing rear delt raises. You only need to be working your rear delts.

I'd start with standing shoulder press: 4 warm up sets, then 3 sets of 6 reps at 45kg-40kg

Then go on to side lateral raise, rear delt raise, and a front raise. It's it for shoulders.

Thanks for all your responses, guys

Alf Veedersane · 12-02-2017 09:22PM

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Given the stats above, what kind of numbers do you think I should be aiming for?

You're focusing too much on the numbers you should be doing. Keep at the sets of 10/12 and when you get full sets, move up to next weight, assuming your form I'd still fine.

They're accessory exercises to strengthen elements contributing to strengthening the overall main lift. Don't overthink it.

Caliden · 13-02-2017 12:19PM

For your lateral raises I wouldn't do this:

Lifting two dumb-bells simultaneously/ bend in elbow/ wrist twisted as if I'm pouring water onto the floor.

I'd go the other direction like you're giving a thumbs up (external rotation).

The way you've described is internal rotation and could lead to impingement.

Mellor · 15-02-2017 05:59AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They're accessory exercises to strengthen elements contributing to strengthening the overall main lift. Don't overthink it.

I took it that he was asking about the compound lifts posted in the OP.
Ditto for Brian?

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Given the stats in the first post, what kind of numbers do you think I should be aiming for?

Numbers to aim for are a highly individual thing, and strength standards aren't universal.
That said, the numbers you posted are all towards the high end of beginner. (With the exception of squats, however given your deadlift and other numbers, you may be squatting high)
So the logical step would be to aim for the novice level across the board, then intermediate. Which would be;

Novice Intermediate
Bench 94 121
Squat 122 157
Deadlift 142 180
Press 61 81

Alf Veedersane · 15-02-2017 08:07AM

Mellor wrote: »

I took it that he was asking about the compound lifts posted in the OP.
Ditto for Brian?

He asked about the numbers for shoulder isolation exercises specifically in the OP.

Mellor · 15-02-2017 08:36AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

He asked about the numbers for shoulder isolation exercises specifically in the OP.

In the OP, yeah. But the the post/question you wear quoting sounded like he was asking about his compound stats in the OP. In response to Brian's just get stronger advice.
Given the numbers if be inclined to agree with that advice.

In regards to isolated shoulder work, I agree with you that chasing max load isn't necessary.

Alf Veedersane · 15-02-2017 08:47AM

Mellor wrote: »

In the OP, yeah. But the the post/question you wear quoting sounded like he was asking about his compound stats in the OP. In response to Brian's just get stronger advice.
Given the numbers if be inclined to agree with that advice.

In regards to isolated shoulder work, I agree with you that chasing max load isn't necessary.

Ah, reading it back now I see what you mean. Seemed to be focused solely on the isolation stuff so assumed he was still on about that.

JJayoo · 16-02-2017 03:00PM

Your over thinking these two lifts, just stick them in at the end of your pressing session.

At the end of the day if you want to grow muscle you have to gain weight. You can't just hit a certain muscle group and expect it to grow in isolation to the rest of your physique, if that was the case there would be a lot of 70kg guys walking around with 20inch arms

Any advice on lateral raise / rear delt raise

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