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The greatest Irish person...

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    #212
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I was in the front row when the actor, Christopher Lee visited University College Dublin. He was talking about some of his trips to Ireland and the friends he met here. One of the people he worked with was an associate of Micheal Collins. He started that anecdote by saying "do you know Micheal Collins, well if you don't you should".

    As Churchill said “He was an Irish patriot, true and fearless… When in future times the Irish Free State is not only prosperous and happy, but an active and annealing force… regard will be paid by widening circles to his life and to his death…

    “Successor to a sinister inheritance, reared among fierce conditions and moving through ferocious times, he supplied those qualities of action and personality without which the foundations of Irish nationhood would not have been re-established.”

    Collins, by any standard is someone to be proud of.


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    #213
    diomed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭diomed


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    I`d put a decent wager on you being from Mayo.
    You can have €10k on at evens.
    (you obviously don't bet)


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    #214
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I didn't think he graduated? Afaik he gave it up.

    Famous lawyers include Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Daniel O'Connell, Padraig Pearse, Edward Carson and Isaac Butt.

    Ah fook it can't now vote for any of them.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Why is Veronica Guerin on the shortlist above? She's been turned into a hero despite not having any particularly great achievements

    She may have done some good journalism but gangland crime is the same as it ever was and frankly what she did to her family after receiving repeated warnings to stop what she was doing it was extremely selfish of her to continue when she had a young child.

    Used to admire her until found out how much time she spent with the haugheys.
    Anyone that had anything to do with them can't and couldn't be trusted.
    topmanamillion wrote: »
    I`d put a decent wager on you being from Mayo.
    They love Davitt up there. Everything from streets to the social welfare office in Castlebar are named after Davitt!:pac:
    I wonder if Enda will get the same treatment.

    Moy Davitts local football club, Michael Davitt Hse in Castlebar - dept of agriculture.

    What is wrong with being proud of somebody that did good ????

    And only in boards could we start discussing Ireland's greatest person and find us discussing the achievements of Alexander the Great.


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    #215
    s8n
    Registered Users Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭s8n


    Can you update poll to include me please


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    #216
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    maryishere wrote: »
    in a BNAM public poll...

    The public poll nominated the top 5 military opponents.
    At a special event in the museum an audience of 70 special guests (mostly military historians) put them in order with Collins coming out second only to George Washington and ahead of Napoleon Bonaparte, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (the Turkish leader who mounted the defence of Gallipoli) and Erwin Rommel

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9204961/George-Washington-named-Britains-greatest-ever-foe.html

    A truly outstanding man and someone Irish people should feel confident to compare and contrast with the very best military and political minds that the world has ever seen.
    If Michael Collins is better than Stonewall Jackson or Genghis Kahn then I am am Santa Claus.


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    #217
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    diomed wrote: »
    Michael Davitt
    I can't see why Michael Collins is highly regarded.

    He led us to independence against all odds with the support of his people? Hardly earth shattering.
    Why did the IRA kill him? He looks like he is highly respected by Irish people and yet the IRA decided to kill him just because he wanted to make the free state work. He had no choice.


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    #218
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    munsterlegend wrote: »
    diomed wrote: »
    Michael Davitt
    I can't see why Michael Collins is highly regarded.

    He led us to independence against all odds with the support of his people? Hardly earth shattering.
    Why did the IRA kill him? He looks like he is highly respected by Irish people and yet the IRA decided to kill him just because he wanted to make the free state work. He had no choice.

    That is a completely separate matter. Is he one of Ireland's greats? Yes without doubt he is. The greatest? Subjective to ones views


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    #219
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Why did the IRA kill him? He looks like he is highly respected by Irish people and yet the IRA decided to kill him just because he wanted to make the free state work. He had no choice.

    Maybe they just did it for bants?

    If you want an even more simplistic and dismissive analysis of the objections to the Anglo Irish Treaty...


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    #220
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Why did the IRA kill him? He looks like he is highly respected by Irish people and yet the IRA decided to kill him just because he wanted to make the free state work. He had no choice.

    Maybe they just did it for bants?

    If you want an even more simplistic and dismissive analysis of the objections to the Anglo Irish Treaty...
    The guy did his best to try and get an Irish state and got killed. What a way to reward him.


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    #221
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The guy did his best to try and get an Irish state and got killed. What a way to reward him.

    Alternatively the guy got a terrible deal and he (and his colleagues) capitulated to nonsense threats about an immediate war that anyone would have known was going to be impossible for the British to sell to their own people. But was a bit confused after a week of drink in London, if accounts of those who accompanied him are to be believed. He was a hard drinker though, it does kinda ring true.

    Btw, not saying that version is correct, but simply repeating he did his best, he did his best does not make it so. If he was drinking mind you, it's arguable that he could not have "done his best".


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    #222
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Alternatively the guy got a terrible deal and he (and his colleagues) capitulated to nonsense threats about an immediate war .

    He must have been doing some serious drinking to start imagining something that didn't happen


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    #223
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,168 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Alternatively the guy got a terrible deal and he (and his colleagues) capitulated to nonsense threats about an immediate war that anyone would have known was going to be impossible for the British to sell to their own people. But was a bit confused after a week of drink in London, if accounts of those who accompanied him are to be believed. He was a hard drinker though, it does kinda ring true.

    Btw, not saying that version is correct, but simply repeating he did his best, he did his best does not make it so. If he was drinking mind you, it's arguable that he could not have "done his best".

    As opposed to the sleeveen long fellow that wouldn't even go to London because he knew he would have to come back with something unpalatable.

    Was it because he already knew he was not going to get a republic ?
    Did he want Collins et al to get the flak ?

    Whereas your assertion is based on heresay and the auld fianna failers whinging, the fact is that dev did not go to London.


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    #224
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The guy did his best to try and get an Irish state and got killed. What a way to reward him.

    Alternatively the guy got a terrible deal and he (and his colleagues) capitulated to nonsense threats about an immediate war that anyone would have known was going to be impossible for the British to sell to their own people.  But was a bit confused after a week of drink in London, if accounts of those who accompanied him are to be believed.  He was a hard drinker though, it does kinda ring true.

    Btw, not saying that version is correct, but simply repeating he did his best, he did his best does not make it so.  If he was drinking mind you, it's arguable that he could not have "done his best".
    How was it a terrible deal? What do you suggest he should have got?


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    #225
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jmayo wrote: »
    As opposed to the sleeveen long fellow that wouldn't even go to London because he knew he would have to come back with something unpalatable.

    Was it because he already knew he was not going to get a republic ?
    Did he want Collins et al to get the flak ?

    Whereas your assertion is based on heresay and the auld fianna failers whinging, the fact is that dev did not go to London.

    If you are saying my account is hearsay, I presume every single poster's account is hearsay. Or are you saying...you were there? :D

    Sean McBride a member of FF? Oooooo I don't think so. And he was actually there. He said Collins and Griffith drank very heavily in London. I cannot say that his version is accurate, we can only say it is consistent with other anecdotal evidence about his drinking.

    But if he was accurate, you would accept that that undermines the argument that Collins did his best, would you?


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    #226
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,653 ✭✭✭storker


    Arthur Wellesley, heh heh. For the way it will annoy some people, and to get the man himself spinning in his grave... Win-win. :P


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    #227
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    If Michael Collins is better than Stonewall Jackson or Genghis Kahn then I am am Santa Claus.

    Collins fought a war of resistance against murderous colonial, racist, maggots not for them.


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    #228
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    What's snob geldof doing on the list? All he is is a one hit wonder that raised money for Africa that went into the wrong hands and know doubt profited himself out of it also.


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    #229
    topmanamillion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭topmanamillion


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    If Michael Collins is better than Stonewall Jackson or Genghis Kahn then I am am Santa Claus.

    Jesus, the level of begrudgery is strong in this one. Anyone but an Irish man uh?


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    #230
    Saoirse1981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Saoirse1981


    Personally, it pains me that Bob Geldof is on the list and Bobby Sands is not,

    For my choices among many others,

    Bobby Sands
    Darkie Hughes

    Dan Breen
    Tom Barry


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    #231
    bodhrandude
    Registered Users Posts: 12,463 ✭✭✭✭bodhrandude


    I demand to have my vote in the poll withdrawn so that I can vote for Noel Browne, the rules were changed during the thread so they can be changed again, take away my vote for Arthur Guinness.

    If you want to get into it, you got to get out of it. (Hawkwind 1982)



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    #232
    bodhrandude
    Registered Users Posts: 12,463 ✭✭✭✭bodhrandude


    C'mon Conor change my vote to Noel Browne he deserves better than this.

    If you want to get into it, you got to get out of it. (Hawkwind 1982)



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    #233
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    bodhrandude wrote: »
    I demand to have my vote in the poll withdrawn so that I can vote for Noel Browne, the rules were changed during the thread so they can be changed again, take away my vote for Arthur Guinness.

    You're crackers. Arthur Guinness was a genious who created one of the best & most enduring brandnames in the history of the planet! and the product itself (the Blackstuff) aint bad either :))

    PS' Who's Noel Browne anyway ?


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    #234
    topmanamillion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭topmanamillion


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Alternatively the guy got a terrible deal and he (and his colleagues) capitulated to nonsense threats about an immediate war that anyone would have known was going to be impossible for the British to sell to their own people. But was a bit confused after a week of drink in London, if accounts of those who accompanied him are to be believed. He was a hard drinker though, it does kinda ring true.

    Btw, not saying that version is correct, but simply repeating he did his best, he did his best does not make it so. If he was drinking mind you, it's arguable that he could not have "done his best".

    So you admit it was hearsay but yet you base your entire point on it.
    Collins had a weak stomach most likely connected with pleurisy he contracted in his 20s so he stuck with bland food.
    From reading some accounts it sounds like he had some sort of ulcer or other such condition.
    Which wouldn't be unusual considering the amount of stress leading a resistance against the British must have put him under.
    The idea he went on the piss in London is potentially medically impossible.
    Not to mention he gave up smoking in his mid twenties and all but gave up drink, insisting he would be a slave to nothing.

    The Anglo-Irish Treaty was the best he could have hoped for.
    Who knows what he would have achieved had he lived past 31.
    The great tragedy of the 1916 executions and the civil war was we lost so many great men who would have undoubtedly went on to achieve even more than they did.
    An extraordinary thought in itself.


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    #235
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    If Michael Collins is better than Stonewall Jackson or Genghis Kahn then I am am Santa Claus.

    Collins fought a war of resistance against murderous colonial, racist, maggots not for them.
    The guy didn't have any honor. Good job he didn't invade up here, we would have sent him packing.


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    #236
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,491 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The guy didn't have any honor. Good job he didn't invade up here, we would have sent him packing.
    You never sent anyone packing. You shouted Never Never Never plenty, did a bit of wrecking and then accepted what you were shouting Never Never Never about. :D


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    #237
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    So you admit it was hearsay but yet you base your entire point on it.
    Collins had a weak stomach most likely connected with pleurisy he contracted in his 20s so he stuck with bland food.
    From reading some accounts it sounds like he had some sort of ulcer or other such condition.
    Which wouldn't be unusual considering the amount of stress leading a resistance against the British must have put him under.
    The idea he went on the piss in London is potentially medically impossible.
    Not to mention he gave up smoking in his mid twenties and all but gave up drink, insisting he would be a slave to nothing.

    Um. Every single post about the Anglo Irish Treaty here is hearsay. Your post is hearsay. You weren't there. You can't give direct evidence of what happened.

    As for "potentially medically impossible"...it is also "potentially 100% true". We know a witness who said he went on the tear, can you quote a witness who said he had a stomach ulcer that prevented this?


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    #238
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bodhrandude wrote: »
    C'mon Conor change my vote to Noel Browne he deserves better than this.

    I didn't add the poll, not sure I can change it?


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    #239
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The guy didn't have any honor. Good job he didn't invade up here, we would have sent him packing.

    The British made a mistake sparing him after being capturing him in 1916, and releasing him after a very short detention because they took his word he would be law abiding in the future. He showed no appreciation for the astonishing mercy the British had shown him. Did he show any such mercy when unarmed men fell into his hands subsequently - no. So you are right, he did not have any honour. The British would have been better to imprison him for longer. Other European countries were harsher with those who took part in uprisings. Because of the innocent Protestants shot in Cork in that era, leaders of the IRA do not deserve the glorification they have received from certain quarters. DeValera, for all his faults, killed some IRA in prison during the "emergency" ( ww2). That kept a handle on the situation.


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    #240
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    maryishere wrote: »
    The British made a mistake sparing him after being capturing him in 1916, and releasing him after a very short detention because they took his word he would be law abiding in the future. He showed no appreciation for the astonishing mercy the British had shown him. Did he show any such mercy when unarmed men fell into his hands subsequently - no. So you are right, he did not have any honour. The British would have been better to imprison him for longer. Other European countries were harsher with those who took part in uprisings. Because of the innocent Protestants shot in Cork in that era, leaders of the IRA do not deserve the glorification they have received from certain quarters. DeValera, for all his faults, killed some IRA in prison during the "emergency" ( ww2). That kept a handle on the situation.


    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

    Thanks . I needed a laugh.

    How dare a man lie in order to keep himself alive.Very disappointing behavior.


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    #241
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    How dare a man lie in order to keep himself alive.Very disappointing behavior.

    He did not lie in order to keep himself alive : those who spent a short time in Wales were not shot. He lied so he could get out of internment asap to start murdering again. He did not show the same mercy the British had shown him.


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