Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Special Circumstances · 10-02-2017 01:29PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven't mentioned morality or legality. I have the same question about sex in the grey area a dozen times only had 2 responses.

One response says it's always regret sex and never to be considered rape and the victim should chalk it up to experience.

The other said it's a matter for the four to decide.

I think there should simply be respect enough for each other and for the importance of sex as bonding and recreation, to gain consent before having sex. I'm mad for thinking that apparently.

But if both guys have consumed an alcoholic beverage can either have given formal consent? Surely they have raped each other in that case.. going by the prevailing new wisdom.

10-02-2017 01:31PM

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 01:36PM

silverharp wrote:

in fairness what would genuinely disturb you probably isn't a good test of anything

It was disturbing to me

Someone could come to silverharp and say 'I was out last night, had a few drinks, went home with someone, one thing led to another and we started having sex. I didn't want to but I didn't know how to stop. Can you stop once you start? Anyway I think I might have been raped'

Selverharp's response: oh mean you had regret sex. Chalk it up to experience, eh. Buck up.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 01:41PM

Special Circumstances wrote:

But if both guys have consumed an alcoholic beverage can either have given formal consent? Surely they have raped each other in that case.. going by the prevailing new wisdom.

Ironically enough, I've asked that question lads of times and get a range of answers. Some say they know exactly what they're doing on drink/drugs so consent isn't an issue. One poster claimed drink is worse than the drugs they've used when it comes to knowing what you're doing - they didn't accept consent is an issue on either drink/drugs.

Most answer are along the lines of 'you know consent yourself, like'.

I don't know where the lines with consent are drawn with drink/drugs. What do you think?

Special Circumstances · 10-02-2017 01:45PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ironically enough, I've asked that question lads of times and get a range of answers. Some say they know exactly what they're doing on drink/drugs so consent isn't an issue. One poster claimed drink is worse than the drugs they've used when it comes to knowing what you're doing - they didn't accept consent is an issue on either drink/drugs.

Most answer are along the lines of 'you know consent yourself, like'.

I don't know where the lines with consent are drawn with drink/drugs. What do you think?

By what you're saying I SHOULD be thinking....

Chaperoned until they pass a alcohol/drug screen then poste haste to the nearest commissioner of oaths right?

fullstop · 10-02-2017 01:46PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was disturbing to me

Someone could come to silverharp and say 'I was out last night, had a few drinks, went home with someone, one thing led to another and we started having sex. I didn't want to but I didn't know how to stop. Can you stop once you start? Anyway I think I might have been raped'

Selverharp's response: oh mean you had regret sex. Chalk it up to experience, eh. Buck up.

Of course you can ask to stop. I've been asked to stop a few times in the middle of consensual sex and, guess what, I stopped. So you're basically saying if I hadn't been asked to stop it would have been rape, even though i wouldn't have known?!

silverharp · 10-02-2017 01:46PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was disturbing to me

Someone could come to silverharp and say 'I was out last night, had a few drinks, went home with someone, one thing led to another and we started having sex. I didn't want to but I didn't know how to stop. Can you stop once you start? Anyway I think I might have been raped'

Selverharp's response: oh mean you had regret sex. Chalk it up to experience, eh. Buck up.

well great at least for once you have given the bones of a scenario. I believe women have agency and know their own mind and the law must reflect this, unless there was evidence of coercion or all I see is 2 innocent parties.
Essentially all I can read into this is that someone lowered their standards because "they had a few drinks". Im not even convinced her actually saying Yes would add to the scenario ? the next morning she could say I didn't know how to say No so said Yes and we are back to square one

pumpkin4life · 10-02-2017 01:53PM

silverharp wrote: »

well great at least for once you have given the bones of a scenario. I believe women have agency and know their own mind and the law must reflect this, unless there was evidence of coercion or all I see is 2 innocent parties.
Essentially all I can read into this is that someone lowered their standards because "they had a few drinks". Im not even convinced her actually saying Yes would add to the scenario ? the next morning she could say I didn't know how to say No so said Yes and we are back to square one

It's a modern society thing. That women are helpless victims that if they do something bad then its not their fault, god forbid that, its because their Dad didn't buy them that new iphone for their 17th birthday. Trauma! Victim!

God bless you El. You're a fine virtue signaller!

Zulu · 10-02-2017 01:59PM

orubiru wrote: »

So I think the problem here is that you are almost conflating serious terrible behavior, such as "she was asking for it with that outfit", or having sex with someone who is passed out, and rather less clear issues like miscommunication and misunderstanding....

Exactly this - starting from a position that sex=rape and working back from there, which is mental.

pumpkin4life · 10-02-2017 02:01PM

Also, the grey area thing is kind of nonsense. The more you have to think about "is it rape/sexual assault", the more likely it isn't rape/sexual assault.

Zulu · 10-02-2017 02:10PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

... I didn't want to but I didn't know how to stop. Can you stop once you start? Anyway I think I might have been raped'

And here in lies the crux of the problem. Apparently the person didn't know how to say stop. FFS.

It's a grown up world and an adult partaking in grown up activities is responsible for their actions. This includes saying NO when something changes and they are no longer comfortable. An adult not knowing how to say stop, isn't an excuse.

Arragh Guard they wanted a lift home and I didn't want to say no. So I hopped in the car with 15 pints and drove them. It's not my fault. I didn't know how to say no. :rolleyes:

FishOnABike · 10-02-2017 02:39PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You want to use the context leading up to sex as consent, so how are you going to define the boundaries of the context? Body language ect. presumably? If you consider "she danced and took a drink from him so that is consent" and the other person doesn't consider that consent, then where do you other stand. The body language and context has left you both with different interpretations and now what happens? Who's to say what could take as consent in that context?

If a friend came to you after having an experience like that said they consider themselves to have been raped. Would you tell them they weren't raped, they just experienced a grey area so nothing to worry about?

Context is everything.

Even if explicit consent is asked for and given it may not be valid e.g. in circumstances involving coercion, intimidation, lack of capacity to consent... etc.

Conversely where consent is assumed / implied / inferred / deduced (or whatever you want to call it) based on the circumstance the non existance of explicit verbal consent should not be taken as an indication of non consent.

Community standards are applied when it comes to determining consent.

Wibbs · 10-02-2017 02:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Women's experience must never be doubted, well, unless it goes against the more hysterical feminist narratives. EG in the original US Koss "study" that gave us the "1 in 4" statistic for rape, the majority of women polled whose experiences were counted as rape/sexual assault didn't believe it was. However that didn't wash with Ms Koss and her foregone conclusions, so she decided it was on their behalf and included them in the statistic anyway. So even more agency taken from women. Poor dears, clearly don't know their own minds, y'know. :rolleyes: You could not make some of this nonsense up if you tried, though clearly a bunch of social "sciences" harridans in American colleges did and continue to do so and pollute the rest of us, men and women, with their idiocy.

pumpkin4life wrote: »

It's a modern society thing. That women are helpless victims that if they do something bad then its not their fault, god forbid that

As I've been saying it always comes back to "women are always agent less victims and men are always to blame". Even in the examples above when women themselves claim agency(mad eh?) and don't see themselves as victims the Sisterhood of the Church of the Perpetual Victim claim them as unwilling acolytes. Forget men asking WTF, more women should be rounding on these deluded muppets with issues and political axes to grind.

neonsofa · 10-02-2017 03:10PM

Wibbs wrote: »

As I've been saying it always comes back to "women are always agent less victims and men are always to blame". Even in the examples above when women themselves claim agency(mad eh?) and don't see themselves as victims the Sisterhood of the Church of the Perpetual Victim claim them as unwilling acolytes. Forget men asking WTF, more women should be rounding on these deluded muppets with issues and political axes to grind.

Exactly. And the irony is lost on them that all of these discussions about "well the woman was forced if she wasnt explicitly asked beforehand" are insulting to the millions of men and women who despite not being asked, did say no. Who had their voice heard and ignored.
There is an onus on everybody to speak up and say no (and I am well aware that many people freeze during rape, but I'm talking in general terms when it comes to sex) if they are not comfortable with something. Not wait for a person to ask them. That is not placing blame on rape victims before anybody decides to deliberately misinterpreted that comment and ask "but what if your friend..".

Widdershins · 10-02-2017 04:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Forget men asking WTF, more women should be rounding on these deluded muppets with issues and political axes to grind.

We do but frequent contact with zealous nutcases is not good for your health. We are written off as internalised misogyny sufferers anyway.

FishOnABike · 10-02-2017 04:06PM

fullstop wrote: »

Did you ask him the question in return, yes or no? You keep avoiding the point.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Perhaps it is assumed ?

fullstop wrote: »

Why should it be assumed for him, but not for her?

That's the point I was trying to make.

If I continue my argument, how often does this consent need to be explicitly confirmed. Just because one or other consented in the beginning doesn't mean they can't change their mind at any point along the way or just because they enjoyed something before doesn't mean they might not be in the mood now and want to do something else.

A significant ammount of communication in our day to day interactions is non verbal. Why should relationships and sex be any different? Functioning adults can let their wishes be known and understand other's wishes without repeated explicit verbal confirmation - the odd sexy hint doesn't go astray now and then but it's a spontaneous dance of passion not a checklist to be ticked off methodically.

FishOnABike · 10-02-2017 04:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm trying to figure out if this an example of Poe's law or is it genuine. I think I've just proven Poe's Law by circular reasoning.

Special Circumstances · 10-02-2017 04:21PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

A significant ammount of communication in our day to day interactions is non verbal. Why should relationships and sex be any different? Functioning adults can let their wishes be known and understand other's wishes without repeated explicit verbal confirmation - the odd sexy hint doesn't go astray now and then but it's a spontaneous dance of passion not a checklist to be ticked off methodically.

Am I the only one with the kink for commissioner of oaths & full PPE? What's wrong with a fully documented independent verified (KPMG were at a loose end after the lotto gig fell through) methodical rogering?

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:02PM

fullstop wrote:

Of course you can ask to stop. I've been asked to stop a few times in the middle of consensual sex and, guess what, I stopped. So you're basically saying if I hadn't been asked to stop it would have been rape, even though i wouldn't have known?!

Well you would have been having sex against someone else's will even though you didn't know it. You could have been accused at least. And if you had never actually gained consent in the first place, then it's your word against someone else's. Not ideal for either party

Special Circumstances · 10-02-2017 05:04PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well you would have been having sex against someone else's will even though you didn't know it. You could have been accused at least. And if you had never actually gained consent in the first place, then it's your word against someone else's. Not ideal for either party

So you're going with the "consent must be written or otherwise recorded or witnessed" yeah?

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:05PM

silverharp wrote:

Essentially all I can read into this is that someone lowered their standards because "they had a few drinks". Im not even convinced her actually saying Yes would add to the scenario ? the next morning she could say I didn't know how to say No so said Yes and we are back to square one

Who said anything about lowering standards. You send to assime aspect into it every time, even when there's no evidence of it. That's telling.

So what would you actually say to a real person who confided that scenario in you?

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:06PM

Zulu wrote:

Exactly this - starting from a position that sex=rape and working back from there, which is mental.

Not from anything I've said.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:08PM

Zulu wrote:

Arragh Guard they wanted a lift home and I didn't want to say no. So I hopped in the car with 15 pints and drove them. It's not my fault. I didn't know how to say no.

I wouldn't even know how to relate that analogy to the conversation were having about consent.

silverharp · 10-02-2017 05:10PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who said anything about lowering standards. You send to assime aspect into it every time, even when there's no evidence of it. That's telling.

So what would you actually say to a real person who confided that scenario in you?

I'd be more interested in what the law would say? as the law sets the test.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:10PM

Special Circumstances wrote:

So you're going with the "consent must be written or otherwise recorded or witnessed" yeah?

No.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:12PM

silverharp wrote:

I'd be more interested in what the law would say? as the law sets the test.

That's better than telling them it was only regret sex and to chalk it up to experience.

Special Circumstances · 10-02-2017 05:15PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No.

Well surely it's only ever going to be one persons word against another otherwise?

silverharp · 10-02-2017 05:17PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's better than telling them it was only regret sex and to chalk it up to experience.

I dunno , the defence lawyer would be less charitable again. btw you didn't answer my question, how does the "yes" help? the same excuse could be used after

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:17PM

Special Circumstances wrote:

Well surely it's only ever going to be one persons word against another otherwise?

Only if one of them is lying. Sure anyone can make a ale accusation against anyone else. They don't necessarily have to have had sex for a false accusation.

I'm taking about the grey area where people have sex and it isn't forced, just not consentual.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-02-2017 05:19PM

silverharp wrote:

I dunno , the defence lawyer would be less charitable again. btw you didn't answer my question, how does the "yes" help? the same excuse could be used after

That's likely to count as all the reasonable due diligence from a legal perspective, wouldn't you say?

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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