El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I'm in a long term relationship so my partner and i know where we stand. In the scenario above consent wasn't established, it was assumed. It was probably correctly assumed which is fine. When consent is incorrectly assumed, then what do you call it? - hint, the answer might be rape.
givyjoe wrote: Quite simply, they person says stop.. either with their voice, their limbs or possibly body language. I don't tend to have sex with my eyes closed the whole time, so if per chance the I get to penetration and the woman doesn't want to continue, there should be some fairly obvious body language clues. Clues such as no reciprocal touching, moaning and well emm.. lubrication.. for crying out loud, you only need to look at her face.
givyjoe wrote: How on earth do you incorrectly assume consent? Excluding situations where some literally has no use of their limbs and or vocal chords..
givyjoe wrote: This really isn't rocket science.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So is consent assumed up to the point where someone explicitly says 'stop' either verbally or physically? Even with strangers? The answer to this question is contained in the answer to the question I asked above. You wouldn't think so but our baseline assumptions might be different. That's why we arrive at different conclusions.
Wibbs wrote: » midlandsmissus wrote: » I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country? The same way I feel about the growing gender divide in education. Ask why and seek ways to improve the situation, but not by introducing preferential quotas.
midlandsmissus wrote: » I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?
midlandsmissus wrote: » If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance?
givyjoe wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » So is consent assumed up to the point where someone explicitly says 'stop' either verbally or physically? Even with strangers? The answer to this question is contained in the answer to the question I asked above. You wouldn't think so but our baseline assumptions might be different. That's why we arrive at different conclusions. Have you ever actually had casual sex? When you first slept with your husband, did you actually utter the words 'you may now enter me'.. did he ask 'may i have sex with you'? That's the completely ludicrous and impractical sex your arguments are implying. I've literally never asked a woman 'can i have sex with you', funnily enough I've never been charged with Rape or sexual assault.
midlandsmissus wrote: » If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance? Who would want to keep the other gender out of opportunities.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Why are you only focusing on women?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » And the men who do come across it can end up being accused of rape, potentially having committed rape. And they received bad info about assumed consent and 'it's not rape unless she says 'stop''. I'm not suggesting anyone should be an amateur psychologist (I presume you mean mind reader). I'm suggesting it's better to actually gain consent rather than try to read minds.
Wibbs wrote: » midlandsmissus wrote: » If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance? and this is where we differ. Quotas at best are a simplistic quick we look like we're doing something "fix" for more complex underlying reasons. So young men would continue to under perform in certain educational areas, but would get a pass to the detriment of young women who weren't. The problem(s) would remain fundamentally the same.
midlandsmissus wrote: » Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'. Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!
neonsofa wrote: Just on your first point, rape does happen in (bad) relationships too. And being in a relationship in itself is not actually implied consent. Its just a point to consider when you are actually discussing implied/assumed consent. How far does the assumption go. (I personally think it comes down to common sense and body language but thought I'd mention it given the nature of the discussion!)
givyjoe wrote: » No, it's got nothing to do with maturity. It strikes me as extremely odd, mechanical and reducing sex to a transaction. God forbid there should be some spontaneity in sex and romance etc. Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept. Honestly, I'm literally open mouthed at the bonkers views in here trying to justify this non existent rape culture.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I completely agree that consent isn't automatically assumed in relationships. My partner and I have an understanding about these things which we've worked out over time. If consent can't be reliably assumed in a relationship, then it really can't be assumed or reliably judged on a wing and a prayer, between people who just met.
givyjoe wrote: » midlandsmissus wrote: » Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'. Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important! No, it's got nothing to do with maturity. It strikes me as extremely odd, mechanical and reducing sex to a transaction. God forbid there should be some spontaneity in sex and romance etc. Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept. Honestly, I'm literally open mouthed at the bonkers views in here trying to justify this non existent rape culture.
midlandsmissus wrote: » How on earth is it odd? 'Do you want to have sex?' I think we are both mind boggled by the other.
silverharp wrote: No I meant amateur psychologist, nobody has mind reading abilities. If they can be accused of rape then maybe the women in these cases ought to have educated themselves on their responsibilities and not create the confusion in the first place.
silverharp wrote: I fail to see the difference if I describe the situation as regret sex as in she regrets not giving any indication that that she didn't want to have sex even though she sent out signals that she did in the time proceeding and at no time said no, turned away or otherwise pushed the man away , you know like a normal person would do. Honestly such a woman should be told to chalk it up to experience.
neonsofa wrote: Most mature adults are also able to read the context of the situation and act accordingly.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Garda: 'Chalk it up to experience' swetcheeks. Classic. Do other posters agree with these assertions that consent can be assumed unless it's explicitly denied verbally or physically?
neonsofa wrote: » midlandsmissus wrote: » How on earth is it odd? 'Do you want to have sex?' I think we are both mind boggled by the other. It would be akin to him asking (every time) can he hold your hand and can he stroke your hair and can he put his arm around you- some things are just spontaneous displays of affection and if you are at the point where you are in bed together after all of the above and stripping each other down asking "do you want to have sex?" does seem a bit odd to me. No judgement like just I can see how it would be odd to people. Now if ye were sitting on a council eating pizza and he asked out of the blue that's not as odd.
givyjoe wrote: Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept.
midlandsmissus wrote: » I see it as a very caring thing to do.
neonsofa wrote: It can't be reliably assumed based purely on the status of the relationship itself. It can be reliably assumed based on other things- body language etc.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » And the rest of the adult population? Mildly autistic people can be perfectly functioning but needn't get those social cues you're suggesting should be relied upon.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » You mean fiction movies and books aren't always good role models for real life? You might be on to something there! Keep going with that train of thought
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Relying on body language is a recipe for disaster! Cultural differences aside, Individual difference between people means body language isn't reliable for much at all. It's fine if the assumption of consent is correct. What do you call it if the assumption of consent (based on body language) is incorrect?
neonsofa wrote: Like I said, whatever works for you, no judgement. I would find it unnecessary and probably irritating after a while.
midlandsmissus wrote: » Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!
