Louise O Neill on rape culture.

RabbleRouser2k · 04-02-2017 03:21AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I watched it on the oul player there and TBH I didn't get any of that "may not be well" stuff. I think that a) that's an all too easy out as far as discussion, b) projecting what people might want to assume and c) one hell of a presumption about someone.

The main impression I got was of an awkward interview on both sides and that she's not used to much in the way of probing dissent(and/or ignores it). TT played very nice, a puff piece as it were and you could sense even then the shields coming down and just preach the gospel unopposed in her. A proper interview where the interviewer was up to speed and asked real questions and questioned her on some of the "facts" she espouses about this brand of "feminism" would not be comfortable for her at all. That she parroted the "equality" bit at the end without a hint of awareness or irony said much.

Tbh, I just felt bored-I'm sure Tiernan may be a great interviewer, possibly, but I don't think he was well versed enough to challenge her.
I do believe his line about how 'jokes are just jokes'- a way of tackling some heavy hitting material, are in no way to blame for sexual violence-people joke about some horrendous stuff, tbh. But oft times that is catharsis at work-you take away catharsis-and boom, you've created an even bigger problem.

midlandsmissus · 04-02-2017 01:26PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

But how is 80-90% of one gender in government a fair position anywhere? In that case - shouldn't there be sanctions, and people saying, 'you are treating the other gender badly, it needs to change'.

See, the issue here midlandsmissus, is that those people in Govt were voted in by the people of Ireland.

To enforce a quota, of any kind, goes directly against the democratic process.

Let's make a hypothetical here;
Assuming we're in Cork City so we'll make it easy and say 4 candidates can be voted in.
7 run, 5 of whom are male and 2 are female.

Let's say that by the vote, 4 of the men were voted in. But the quota says the number must be equal, so they give 2 of the places to the 2 women are ran.

Now, it turns out that one of those women got 1% of the overall voting base, because it turns out shes against Abortion for any reason, hates immigrants and refugees, and is basically a right wing nut.

That woman, despite receiving no real votes is now a recognised TD in the State of Ireland.

Now, obviously this is an extreme in terms of her beliefs, but the quota system does work exactly this way and it's terrible.

You want more women in politics, get them to run. I go to weekly meetings down here in Cork and the amount of younger women who show up is dreadful, maybe 2-3 per meeting. Get them to go the meetings and get out there, get known to the party leads, get voted to the councils and work their way up because thats how it works.

I disagree. I think that quotas need to be introduced where there are obvious instances of discrimination.
The proposed political quota was not telling the public how to vote, it simply asked that political parties nominate a minimum of 30% female candidates.
I am not saying one man in a political party in Ireland equals the views of all men in Ireland, but I really think that this system needs to change and I hope you see that.

Quotas were put in place in Northern Ireland when protestants kept putting protestants into jobs. I just ask you to see that some women feel undervalued and underrepresented. When we all balance together, we all thrive.

infogiver · 04-02-2017 01:41PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I disagree. I think that quotas need to be introduced where there are obvious instances of discrimination.
The proposed political quota was not telling the public how to vote, it simply asked that political parties nominate a minimum of 30% female candidates.
I am not saying one man in a political party in Ireland equals the views of all men in Ireland, but I really think that this system needs to change and I hope you see that.

Quotas were put in place in Northern Ireland when protestants kept putting protestants into jobs. I just ask you to see that some women feel undervalued and underrepresented. When we all balance together, we all thrive.

I'm working for 30 years in a mixed gender environment. I socialise and I'm a parent and a wife and a daughter and a sister and a colleague and I've never ever once felt either undervalued or under represented.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing some examples of how you have been made to feel undervalued midlandsmissus, as well as examples of how a woman putting herself forward for a public service position recently was prevented from doing so by "patriarchy", as at 52 and having lived in a large urban environment and a medium sized rural environment I can honestly say I've never come across it.

Zulu · 04-02-2017 04:49PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

... obvious instances of discrimination.

where? I ask because we have laws preventing gender discrimination, so "obvious instances" should be easy to legally pursue. And yet we don't see that.

Which leads me to think you are talking out of your arse, or have a persecution complex.

RabbleRouser2k · 04-02-2017 10:14PM

Ah lads, keep it civil.

http://www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-pregnancy-2-2555099-Jan2016/

Something like this would be a clear example of discrimination-where her gender and pregnancy led to a discriminatory practice.

So there are definite challenges in the workplace-most definitely, no arguments from me. Especially when comments on women being pregnant are made in the workplace (see the link above).
But do quotas fix this? Possibly, but I lean more towards 'no' than yes. For example, when was the last time someone wished to implement a quota on something like a bulding site? And then there is the added issue of 'discrimination' and i put that in hyphens because that can go both ways, for both genders. If someone applies to a job,and he's male, and loses the job to a woman-does that mean he can seek legal action based on discrimination? Like, if they said 'sorry, too many men this year, we need more women' is that discrimination? Quotas open up a whole can of worms.
(Btw, the building site thing is an example-but my cousin works as an electrician, and has worked alongside quite a few women electricians on buildings. No difference in skills or anything).

Zulu · 05-02-2017 10:48AM

You've shown us an example that was legally pursued. The law in place was used to right the wrong. So the standing law is sufficient.

Additionally the example isn't from the political sphere.

The position being put forward by the pro quota lobby is that women aren't "encouraged" enough into politics, that because of the lifestyle it demands, women are less likely to get involved, and that this by extension is bad for us all because women would bring a different view to matters under political decision.

What's ignored is that this lifestyle doesn't suit most of the population regardless of gender, and in fact teaching appears to be the most political friendly career as jobs are held while people turn there hand to politics. It's worth considering the gender ratios of teachers at this point.

So, the solution is to insert gender discrimination. Which is disgraceful frankly. As it ignores the blindingly obvious issues in favour of a gender agenda to placate I'll conceived and anti-egalartian notions.

For the record, my point wasn't that breaches exist in general, but specifically in politics. And that any existing law was failing to address those breaches.

Satriale · 06-02-2017 12:55PM

darkdubh wrote: »

If it was pint of Guinness there could be real problems. The white privileged head rising to the top over the black.

A bit OT, but you brought back a memory that made me laugh, sounds like a joke but it is true.

I was once working with a South African Boer and a Nigerian and we were having a few creamy pints one evening. The Afrikaner pointed to the Guinness and "Boys this is how is should be, white man on the top, black man on the bottom! And the Nigerian said to him quick as a flash, "yes, but look at the size of the black man and look at the size of the white man".

Boom, headshot, no more guff that evening.

RabbleRouser2k · 08-02-2017 03:18AM

https://twitter.com/EyeisBloke/status/823819813730603008

Type 'Louise O'Neill' into twitter, and even twitter will give you a common sense retort.

(First item on the list too)

09-02-2017 10:09AM

Want to bet her article this week will be about how valentines day promotes rape culture

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 11:11AM

orubiru wrote:

I will defend LON a little and say that what she suggests may be best for some couples and if that's what works for them then fine. You might have a handful of people who need the constant verbal consent "can I do this, can I do that, is this OK, are you sure, is this OK, can I do this now, are you sure, it it OK" and if that's what they require then fine.

I get that you're exaggerating for effect but you hit on an interesting point. If you're having a casual hook-up, how would you now whether you're with one of those people who needs to be asked or not unless you ask?

And when a woman shows up at a police station the morning after a casual hook-up, most men on these threads seem to assume she simply felt regretful about having sex so she's crying 'rape'.

The_Captain · 09-02-2017 11:19AM

Implied consent is still a form of consent

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 11:23AM

infogiver wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I disagree. I think that quotas need to be introduced where there are obvious instances of discrimination.
The proposed political quota was not telling the public how to vote, it simply asked that political parties nominate a minimum of 30% female candidates.
I am not saying one man in a political party in Ireland equals the views of all men in Ireland, but I really think that this system needs to change and I hope you see that.

Quotas were put in place in Northern Ireland when protestants kept putting protestants into jobs. I just ask you to see that some women feel undervalued and underrepresented. When we all balance together, we all thrive.

I'm working for 30 years in a mixed gender environment. I socialise and I'm a parent and a wife and a daughter and a sister and a colleague and I've never ever once felt either undervalued or under represented.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing some examples of how you have been made to feel undervalued midlandsmissus, as well as examples of how a woman putting herself forward for a public service position recently was prevented from doing so by "patriarchy", as at 52 and having lived in a large urban environment and a medium sized rural environment I can honestly say I've never come across it.

Infogiver I was remarking on the government, not workplaces. I truly think it's a shame of our country that it never went over 80% male 20 % female, without gender quotas being introduced, and now it is just over that ratio. So yes, that's where I feel undervalued, and I will until change is put forward.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 11:27AM

Zulu wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

... obvious instances of discrimination.

where? I ask because we have laws preventing gender discrimination, so "obvious instances" should be easy to legally pursue. And yet we don't see that.

Which leads me to think you are talking out of your arse, or have a persecution complex.

I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 11:39AM

The_Captain wrote:

Implied consent is still a form of consent

So is assumed consent according to some esteemed posters. I'm not sure about how you know you have implied consent without a degree of telepathy or assumption

Wibbs · 09-02-2017 11:42AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?

The same way I feel about the growing gender divide in education. Ask why and seek ways to improve the situation, but not by introducing preferential quotas.

Widdershins · 09-02-2017 11:43AM

The_Captain wrote: »

Implied consent is still a form of consent

Is it generally accepted as a form of consent?

Sonics2k · 09-02-2017 11:47AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?

Are you involved in politics yourself? How often do you show up to the meetings for your political party?

I got to tell you, I'm directly involved with a political party here in Ireland. I'm not planning on running for a seat or anything, but at least I'm out there. Our party is crying out for liberal minded people who are actually willing to go out there and try to change the system, rather than just sitting at home complaining about it online.

I'm a proud socialist liberal and I truly believe all people are equal, but the problem with the left has always been that they are kinda lazy. Happier to sit around complaining on Twitter, going to yet another pointless protest but never actually trying to get into the Govt and try to change things.

You want to know why there are more men in the likes of FG and FF, it's because they actually made the effort to do all the ground work involved to get in to the Dail.

silverharp · 09-02-2017 11:49AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So is assumed consent according to some esteemed posters. I'm not sure about how you know you have implied consent without a degree of telepathy or assumption

I'd assume he means non verbal which is a perfectly valid feedback. Surely there has to be responsibility on both sides? if the fictional woman that needs to be assured with verbal questions at every point actually exists then ought that person stay away from hook ups in the first place? or do you think woman don't have full agency?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 11:57AM

silverharp wrote:

I'd assume he means non verbal which is a perfectly valid feedback. Surely there has to be responsibility on both sides? if the fictional woman that needs to be assured with verbal questions at every point actually exists then ought that person stay away from hook ups in the first place? or do you think woman don't have full agency?

No idea where your getting agency from what I said. I mafe no mention of agency.

I followed the poster's line of argument. Some people need to be asked explicitly (not going as far as the poster went as that was for comedic effect). How would you know if you're with such a person... unless you ask?

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 11:59AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is it ridiculous? There's no indication that the woman has gained any consent in the scenario you outlined. Why is it ridiculous?

Ah here, im sorry but are you a virgin or do you have really mechanical, insanely planned and pre thought out sex? The fact that he doesn't stop, and continues to thrust is a fairly obvious indicator of consent.

These 'arguments' are just plain ludicrous.

Wibbs · 09-02-2017 12:01PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is it ridiculous? There's no indication that the woman has gained any consent in the scenario you outlined. Why is it ridiculous?

Eh… So in your mind in that scenario the individuals intentions and desire are still in doubt? Would the intentions and desire be less in doubt if the genders were reversed?

not going as far as the poster went as that was for comedic effect

You do realise that that scenario is hardly going "as far" as you seem to think and happens a lot. Women with healthy sexual needs expressing same. Who'da thunk it eh?

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 12:03PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh… So in your mind in that scenario the individuals intentions and desire are still in doubt? Would the intentions and desire be less in doubt if the genders were reversed?

You do realise that that scenario is hardly going "as far" as you seem to think and happens a lot. Women with healthy sexual needs expressing same. Who'da thunk it eh?

The poster is in doubt regarding the males desire in that case I think.

silverharp · 09-02-2017 12:05PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No idea where your getting agency from what I said. I mafe no mention of agency.

I followed the poster's line of argument. Some people need to be asked explicitly (not going as far as the poster went as that was for comedic effect). How would you know if you're with such a person... unless you ask?

you seem to be assuming that some women are completely incapable of giving input into a situation where there is no violence or coercion , that reeks of non agency to me. One shouldn't have to ask because all the prior behaviour as one of the posters colourfully describes indicates that this is not the case. Also why would men need to be amateur psychologists in this situation? You are describing an individual most men would never have come across.

Wibbs · 09-02-2017 12:07PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Are you involved in politics yourself? How often do you show up to the meetings for your political party?

I got to tell you, I'm directly involved with a political party here in Ireland. I'm not planning on running for a seat or anything, but at least I'm out there. Our party is crying out for liberal minded people who are actually willing to go out there and try to change the system, rather than just sitting at home complaining about it online.

I'm a proud socialist liberal and I truly believe all people are equal, but the problem with the left has always been that they are kinda lazy. Happier to sit around complaining on Twitter, going to yet another pointless protest but never actually trying to get into the Govt and try to change things.

You want to know why there are more men in the likes of FG and FF, it's because they actually made the effort to do all the ground work involved to get in to the Dail.

+1000 especially the underlined part. I've noted similar myself, not just with some sections of the left. In Ireland anyway, traditional centrists are more likely to roll their sleeves up and get stuck in using the existing political frameworks.

Oh and "proud socialist liberal eh Sonics"?

orubiru · 09-02-2017 12:13PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I get that you're exaggerating for effect but you hit on an interesting point. If you're having a casual hook-up, how would you now whether you're with one of those people who needs to be asked or not unless you ask?

And when a woman shows up at a police station the morning after a casual hook-up, most men on these threads seem to assume she simply felt regretful about having sex so she's crying 'rape'.

To be honest, I would expect that person to tell me outright what they want and/or need.

Like if you were going to have casual sex with someone who was allergic to condoms you would expect them to mention that rather than allow you to just go ahead and use a condom, right?

Sitting in the Emergency Room thinking "this could have been avoided" and honestly feeling like you've been betrayed even though they are the one in anaphylactic shock.

I would consider it highly deceitful if a person in a casual hook up situation behaved like they were into it through obvious non-verbal signals only to turn round the next day and say that they felt uncomfortable because they actually have a strong preference for continuous verbal consent.

I'd be thinking "why wouldn't you say something" and I'd also feel like I'd been tricked into a situation I didn't necessarily want to be in.

Unfortunately I feel the only way to really examine this is to exaggerate for effect. Sometimes real life is stranger than fiction anyway, or something.

Say a guy meets a girl at a bar. She kisses him or he kisses her, with no resistance. She says "lets get a taxi". She takes off his clothes and hers, she hands him a condom, no words are exchanged. She participates enthusiastically. They joke around afterwards and it all seems good.

The next day she announces that she is the kind of person who needs constant verbal affirmation of consent throughout the act and since this was not the case last night she feels like she has been taken advantage of.

In my view the man could have a right to be angry and upset here as he was essentially misled into having sex with a partner who did not explain her preferences fully.

These kind of interactions between people are obviously complicated and so it's difficult to boil things down to a simple set of rules. People are not so easy to understand or categorize.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 12:33PM

Wibbs wrote:

Ehâ€¦ So in your mind in that scenario the individuals intentions and desire are still in doubt? Would the intentions and desire be less in doubt if the genders were reversed?

Yes in so far as it hasn't been established.

It would be the same in this case with the woman grabbing at the man's penis, as it would be with a man grabbing at a woman's vagina. Why would it be different?

neonsofa wrote:

The poster is in doubt regarding the males desire in that case I think.

Yes. The scenario spells out the woman's intention but doesn't mention the man's intention. Hence doubt

orubiru · 09-02-2017 12:35PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is it ridiculous? There's no indication that the woman has gained any consent in the scenario you outlined. Why is it ridiculous?

Edit: Sorry. I misread your post. My bad!

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 12:37PM

givyjoe wrote:

Ah here, im sorry but are you a virgin or do you have really mechanical, insanely planned and pre thought out sex? The fact that he doesn't stop, and continues to thrust is a fairly obvious indicator of consent.

I'm in a long term relationship so my partner and i know where we stand.

In the scenario above consent wasn't established, it was assumed. It was probably correctly assumed which is fine. When consent is incorrectly assumed, then what do you call it? - hint, the answer might be rape.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 12:43PM

silverharp wrote:

you seem to be assuming that some women are completely incapable of giving input into a situation where there is no violence or coercion , that reeks of non agency to me. One shouldn't have to ask because all the prior behaviour as one of the posters colourfully describes indicates that this is not the case. .

Why are you only focusing on women?

silverharp wrote:

Also why would men need to be amateur psychologists in this situation? You are describing an individual most men would never have come across

And the men who do come across it can end up being accused of rape, potentially having committed rape. And they received bad info about assumed consent and 'it's not rape unless she says 'stop''.

I'm not suggesting anyone should be an amateur psychologist (I presume you mean mind reader). I'm suggesting it's better to actually gain consent rather than try to read minds.

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 12:44PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm in a long term relationship so my partner and i know where we stand.

In the scenario above consent wasn't established, it was assumed. It was probably correctly assumed which is fine. When consent is incorrectly assumed, then what do you call it? - hint, the answer might be rape.

How on earth do you incorrectly assume consent? Excluding situations where some literally has no use of their limbs and or vocal chords..

Quite simply, the person says (or implies) stop.. either with their voice, their limbs or possibly body language. I don't tend to have sex with my eyes closed the whole time, so if per chance the I get to penetration and the woman doesn't want to continue, there should be some fairly obvious body language clues. Clues such as no reciprocal touching, moaning and well emm.. lubrication.. for crying out loud, you only need to look at her face.

This really isn't rocket science.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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