Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

Buer · 05-02-2017 05:56PM

First Up wrote:

Plus none of the current three can get off the ground so we don't have a line out tail option. The Scots knew that and were able to load the middle on our ball - to good effect.

Getting off the ground isn't a problem with jumping at the tail. Any of our back row can do it and did it yesterday too. That's more to do with timing and lifting. Our issues there are to do with a lack of cohesion and the throws struggling.

We need someone to jump at 2. That's where we badly miss an explosive jumper.

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 05:56PM

First Up wrote: »

All similar in style. All good at it but leaves us without a genuine open side.

Don't you know Hookisms are banned on this forum? :pac:

It's so hackneyed that I don't even know what it means these days. Especially since we have interchangeable roles in the back row apart from at the scrum. So you don't have the seven with his head buried in rucks trying to turn over ball, or doing the carrying.

First Up wrote: »

Plus none of the current three can get off the ground so we don't have a line out tail option. The Scots knew that and were able to load the middle on our ball - to good effect.

Heaslip is a genuine option in the lineout, Stander does it for Munster regularly and JvdF for Leinster and Ireland also. POM is an excellent lineout jumper and probably the best of the bunch. But Jack Conan is also excellent in the air. Basically what I'm saying is that there are always options, it's down to the guys on the pitch to decide when to use them.

Whoever was jumping, the Grays would have still been a niusance. We didn't really make good decisions at the lineout and even more crucial imo is that we (again) chose to go for the line when points were on offer.

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:03PM

Heaslip is a great player but Jaysus he gives away an awful amount of stupid penalties. Yesterday was typical of him.

First Up · 05-02-2017 06:07PM

CMOTDibbler wrote:

Heaslip is a genuine option in the lineout, Stander does it for Munster regularly and JvdF for Leinster and Ireland also. POM is an excellent lineout jumper and probably the best of the bunch. But Jack Conan is also excellent in the air. Basically what I'm saying is that there are always options, it's down to the guys on the pitch to decide when to use them.

The lifters have a lot to do with it. Bigger guys like Heaslip and CJ need two; VDF and POM can manage with one. That gives the game away to some extent or else requires lots of last second switching which can lead to mistakes.

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Heaslip is a great player but Jaysus he gives away an awful amount of stupid penalties. Yesterday was typical of him.

Ok, this is nonsense. Ireland as a whole give away very few penalties. Almost always in single figures. There were only seven yesterday. Heaslip getting caught for two is a huge outlier on his record. One of those two was from a Scottish player lying on him and preventing him from rolling away.

But you say he gives away an 'awful amount of stupid penalties'. Would you care to back that up with some examples please?

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:15PM

Hyperbole is common

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:20PM

Two people watching the game with me yesterday (both knowledgeable rugby men) and both said that they bet he'd give away the penalty for the Scots to win seconds before he did. They were right.

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:20PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Two people watching the game with me yesterday (both knowledgeable rugby men) and both said that they bet he'd give away the penalty for the Scots to win seconds before he did. They were right.

That's not what you said in your point tho

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:22PM

mansize wrote: »

That's not what you said in your point tho

He gives away a lot of penalties. That's true.

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:23PM

First Up wrote: »

The lifters have a lot to do with it. Bigger guys like Heaslip and CJ need two; VDF and POM can manage with one. That gives the game away to some extent or else requires lots of last second switching which can lead to mistakes.

Stander is by far the heavier alright. He's a full stone heavier than POM. But Heaslip is only 3Kg heavier, so it shouldn't be an issue.

I'm sure somebody like Murray Kinsella will have a detailed look at the lineouts and you can be sure Joe and Easterby will be working on that as well. Something wasn't right, but I'd give a lot of credit to Scotland for putting the pressure on it. The Grays have a lot to do with it for sure.

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:24PM

tayto lover wrote: »

He gives away a lot of penalties. That's true.

CMoD already disproved that fact, unless you have alternative facts???

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:25PM

tayto lover wrote: »

He gives away a lot of penalties. That's true.

So back it up with something more than "a chap in the pub said".

Oh and btw, the last penalty was given away by Tommy Bowe and the one before by Paddy Jackson.

Buer · 05-02-2017 06:28PM

tayto lover wrote:

He gives away a lot of penalties. That's true.

He gave away two penalties yesterday.

That's as many as he gave away in his previous 5 tests against NZ, Australia and SA.

It's crap.

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:28PM

#HeaslipOut lolz

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:30PM

He gave away 2 out of 7. That's high.

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:31PM

tayto lover wrote: »

He gave away 2 out of 7. That's high.

That's not "lots of penalties" though

It's not even the majority yesterday!!!

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:33PM

mansize wrote: »

That's not "lots of penalties" though

It's not even the majority yesterday!!!

Who gave away more?

lawred2 · 05-02-2017 06:34PM

Ultimately the difference between the sides was something you'd see in under 12 rugby and even at that it would have been unacceptable. That try from the lineout was embarrassing.

nagdefy · 05-02-2017 06:35PM

I feel Heaslip is getting treated a little harshly here. Apart from attempting to throw that pass to Henshaw he was very good throughout.

I don't think yesterday's performance is one where blame should be apportioned to certain players. It was more a collectively flat one, slow out of the blocks.

Very like Argentina WC 2015 and Australia autumn 2013.

Having said that i'd like to see Schmidt being bold and blood one player per game. Maybe O'Halloran v Italy. It would stand to us in the long run. I know it's a thin line between putting your best 15 out and putting in a few fresh faces who will make a few errors. But when there isn't that much difference in the ability of players. For an aspiring top table nation our back play is still off the mark. Unfortunately Johnny Sexton may never be the player he was, or unavailable, due to constant injury.

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:35PM

tayto lover wrote: »

He gave away 2 out of 7. That's high.

You need to have a quiet word with your 'knowledgable' mates and explain that they got their call wrong and to give you back your money.

mansize · 05-02-2017 06:36PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Who gave away more?

Again if he gave away the most the statement would be - he gave away the most, not he gives away lots- which you posted, which was easily debunked

tayto lover · 05-02-2017 06:38PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You need to have a quiet word with your 'knowledgable' mates and explain that they got their call wrong and to give you back your money.

Who gave away more? :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:40PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Ultimately the difference between the sides was something you'd see in under 12 rugby and even at that it would have been unacceptable. That try from the lineout was embarrassing.

Yep, I'm embarrassed by it. Still can't get my head around it tbh. It's the throwing in team's prerogative to decide how many to put in the lineout. They don't have to tell anyone unless it's less than 'usual' when they have to tell the ref. The opposition have to have time to reduce their numbers accordingly.

Any other situation and the competing team have to number up on the basis of what the team in possession have. Somebody really screwed the pooch there. I really want to see the lead up to that again to see if there was some sleight of hand by Scotland that helped.

Scythica · 05-02-2017 06:41PM

Just thinking back.

Dont we always have line out wobbles against Scotland? I have vague memories of jim hamilton destroying us in it.

We should've won, but id rather get the loss done on the first weekend so we're under no illusions of what we need to do next.

typhoony · 05-02-2017 06:42PM

don't often agree with Luke Fitgerald but he nailed it with the comments about defending too narrow, allowing inferior teams to score out wide from moves outside the 22 is a major flaw in Schmidt's team, learnt nothing from Argentina game.

nagdefy · 05-02-2017 06:43PM

Scythica wrote: »

Just thinking back.

Dont we always have line out wobbles against Scotland? I have vague memories of jim hamilton destroying us in it.

We should've won, but id rather get the loss done on the first weekend so we're under no illusions of what we need to do next.

I think so. 2010 in the Aviva.

nagdefy · 05-02-2017 06:45PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yep, I'm embarrassed by it. Still can't get my head around it tbh. It's the throwing in team's prerogative to decide how many to put in the lineout. They don't have to tell anyone unless it's less than 'usual' when they have to tell the ref. The opposition have to have time to reduce their numbers accordingly.

Any other situation and the competing team have to number up on the basis of what the team in possession have. Somebody really screwed the pooch there. I really want to see the lead up to that again to see if there was some sleight of hand by Scotland that helped.

Wouldn't we love it if we did it:) A little different but reminds of of Mal O'Kelly stealing the ball from an Italian throw, right infront of where i was sitting, to score a try in the Old Landsdowne in 2004:)

CMOTDibbler · 05-02-2017 06:46PM

typhoony wrote: »

don't often agree with Luke Fitgerald but he nailed it with the comments about defending too narrow, allowing inferior teams to score out wide from moves outside the 22 is a major flaw in Schmidt's team, learnt nothing from Argentina game.

There's nothing wrong with defendiing narrow, it's a legitimate defensive formation. The problem comes when you don't accompany it with linespeed to cut off the outisde runners or an aggressive drift to cover the wings.

Scotland set up to go around us, it was obvious from where there wings were stationed; right on the tramlines. But we did the same with NZ in Chicago and the likes of Naholo hardly got a sniff of the ball.

Why we weren't pushing up is beyond me really.

The Rape of Lucretia · 05-02-2017 06:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Who gave away more?

The number is too low to make any comparisons or draw any meaningful statistical conclusions.

nagdefy · 05-02-2017 06:51PM

What do ye feel about the bus being late etc. Is it a plausible excuse for a poor start?

Personally i don't think so.

At least we're very much in the championship and no team got a 4 try bonus point. Scotland were closest,only for Rob Kearney's tackle.

Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

Comments