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Scotland vs Ireland, 4th Feb 2017, Murrayfield, 2:25, RTÉ 2

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Comments

  • #1052
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You said 30+ box kicks, do you know how many there were, care to guess?

    Do you know how many we take in comparison to other sides? Because you'd assume we do it more often than others reading your post...

    We kicked less than I thought, (but answering the poster's question, our gameplan involves a lot of kicking) and for that reason I'm pleased. Felt our lineout was the main reason we lost today. I'm not critical of Joe today, but he was outsmarted. Credit Cotter.


  • #1053
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    In fairness, with regards to that offload, he had Robbie Henshaw in his peripheral and Henshaw slipped just before the offload. Of all the criticism to be thrown at Heaslip, I think that's the most unnecessary.


  • #1054
    1eg0a3xv7b82of
    Closed Accounts Posts: 996 ✭✭✭1eg0a3xv7b82of


    just heard schmidt going on about being 15 minutes late to the grounds.
    christ schmidt sounds rattled.
    i dont believe in provincialism, its silly as i want ireland to win and i want the best players out there.

    i want to see youth givens its chance from italy on.
    tiernan o halloran, marrimon, adam byrne, van der flyer, conan etc.
    i done care what province they play for and i dont know if the young guys are up to it but i do know bowe, heaslip, earls, toner, SOB, kearney are either too old or have just played too much rugby.

    My favourite player for ireland is tommy bowe, he was a great player but he is not anymore and that logic either applies now or will very soon apply to heaslip, toner, earls, kearney and SOB.
    That is the sadness of sport, not everyone gets to go out like o'driscoll.


  • #1055
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    He looked slow today and his decision making was also poor. He normally NEVER offloads and the one time we needed him to not offload he throws a not even 50:50. Seriously we need to start think of 2019 now.
    You really need to watch that again. I have. Robbie Henshaw called for that offload and was in position to collect it before he slipped. And then slipped again.

    If he had kept his feet, that was a try. It was easy to intercept because the Scottish player was able to run into the slot where Henshaw should have been. Not blaming anyone here, except maybe Robbie's boots.


  • #1056
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Only changes I make next week are Ryan in for Henderson, Trimble in, Earls on bench and Bowe left at home and the POM in on the bench ahead of VDF.

    I'd be happy with that team, if Trimble is fit.


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  • #1057
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    awec wrote: »
    Only changes I make next week are Ryan in for Henderson, Trimble in, Earls on bench and Bowe left at home and the POM in on the bench ahead of VDF.

    Id go Dillane for Henderson switch. All the rest, the same.


  • #1058
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hagz wrote: »
    In fairness, with regards to that offload, he had Robbie Henshaw in his peripheral and Henshaw slipped just before the offload. Of all the criticism to be thrown at Heaslip, I think that's the most unnecessary.

    He didn't slip just before the offload. He slipped WELL before the offload, more than long enough for Heaslip to realise Henshaw was already on the deck.


  • #1059
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    He looked slow today and his decision making was also poor. He normally NEVER offloads and the one time we needed him to not offload he throws a not even 50:50. Seriously we need to start think of 2019 now.

    Heaslip made more meters than any other forwards with 60. He made more tackles than either of the other back rows with 10 and none missed.

    Kearney beat 7 defenders (highest) and ran most meters ball in hand than anyone (97). Only Henshaw carried more times (19 carries v 15 for Kearney).

    Kearney had 2 clean breaks. He was best of the back 3.

    My observations are well supported statistically.


  • #1060
    razorblunt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    Also, I think Scotland were incredibly fortunate with the penalty to go ahead, one of the Grays entered the ruck at the side to clear an Irish defender away.


  • #1061
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The level of hyperbole over Ireland's loss in this thread as a disgrace to the shirt or a national embarrassment is completely uncalled for because it was simply wasn't needed. Ireland's loss to Scotland today was not a complete disaster by any means because the margin in winning it was not that large when it was over.

    Ireland were within a try to win it at a minimum with maybe an extra 2 points & nothing more. Alas it was not to be given their own performance today was not great. They were close to win the game but a few last minute errors threw it away for Ireland all because a last minute penalty given to Scotland near the end.

    It was probably just down to Ireland completely unlucky on their part given that most of Ireland's performance had improved drastically in the 2nd half.

    The loss of big men in key position in the 2nd half was a big issue for me though. I would have kept SOB on for the whole game to let him bring more in carries to the team & he could have had potential to give us one or two tries to make a difference in the winning the whole game for Ireland.

    Scotland's performance against Ireland in the 1st half was a given because they were the far better team to be ahead of Ireland.

    Scotland's tries were on fire in that half of that game.

    Ireland do have far more ability to win a lot more games than Scotland in this championship than in recent years. Maybe look at the tables of this championship in previous years & it is evident that Scotland's overall performance is pretty poor. Whenever I look at Scotland against other teams in the past; I feel that they are not there yet to even win a GS this year because even though they do have the right ability to win one but I feel they don't play in the right structure in their team to be champions.

    Maybe luck is on Scotland's side to win against other big teams in this Championship this year because they do have Cotter has their Head Coach.

    I am not big into Scottish Rugby at all but it feels like that he is beginning to give big hints or influences to his team in how to win big against more competitive sides in this competition. When we look at the Scotland's performances over the years before that; Scotland's performances over the years have been dreadful. Maybe Cotter is just there to give more confidence to Scotland's ability. It is an interesting proposition given to Scotland to start this Championship off with a win in the first game in 11 years.

    But will that winning momentum last for Scotland this year though. That could be hard to tell from my perspective.

    But that is the question for Cotter to answer as Scotland continue their presence in it apparently without any major issues to answer for themselves in this tournament. If he sees a massive room for improvement in Scotland; he could make it their best year ever for their 6N campaign.

    Who is to know after all?


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  • #1062
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Nathanael Great Kangaroo wrote: »
    just heard schmidt going on about being 15 minutes late to the grounds.

    Please don't fall victim to the media games by misinterpreting what he said. He said we were 15 minutes late into the grounds and we seemed 15 minutes late in everything we did in the first half. He didn't at all attribute the loss to their late arrival, it was an analogy.


  • #1063
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Kearney was very good but our back three is not up to scratch.

    Worryingly I don't think we have any combination of back three players at our disposal that would make us truly dangerous in this area.


  • #1064
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    awec wrote: »
    He didn't slip just before the offload. He slipped WELL before the offload, more than long enough for Heaslip to realise Henshaw was already on the deck.

    Come on now awec. Well before the offload? So what? 5 seconds? I don't think so.


  • #1065
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    awec wrote: »
    He didn't slip just before the offload. He slipped WELL before the offload, more than long enough for Heaslip to realise Henshaw was already on the deck.

    That's an armchair observation if ever I've heard it. :pac:


  • #1066
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    .ak wrote: »
    Considering the previous conversations we've had this is a very stupid post. If you can't add to the discussion don't bother.
    It is hard to credit somebody to score players associated with such an appalling performance. So I responded as such. A lot of questions to be answered by Irish rugby today. Hugely disappointed


  • #1067
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Heaslip made more meters than any other forwards with 60. He made more tackles than either of the other back rows with 10 and none missed.

    Kearney beat 7 defenders (highest) and ran most meters ball in hand than anyone (97). Only Henshaw carried more times (19 carries v 15 for Kearney).

    Kearney had 2 clean breaks. He was best of the back 3.

    My observations are well supported statistically.

    It does indeed. Kearney, Heaslip, Jackson, and O'Brien or clear best players today.

    Still, it doesnt matter how much sense you talk, or how well you backbit up with facts, there are always those who either cannot get over their prejudices, or can do more than call for wholesale changes whenever a result goes the wrong way for us.


  • #1068
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hagz wrote: »
    Come on now awec. Well before the offload? So what? 5 seconds? I don't think so.

    Long enough to realise you don't throw the offload. 5 seconds is a long time.


  • #1069
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    awec wrote: »
    He didn't slip just before the offload. He slipped WELL before the offload, more than long enough for Heaslip to realise Henshaw was already on the deck.
    Yes. And then he bloody slipped again. And got run into by Paddy. It was a complete clusterfúck.

    Having called for the ball, he should have called Heaslip to take it to ground after he slipped. You could see Heaslip asking him about it. (that's a nice way of putting it)


  • #1070
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    awec wrote: »
    Long enough to realise you don't throw the offload. 5 seconds is a long time.

    It wasn't 5 seconds. I was asking you what you considered 'well before'. I just checked there and he slipped no more than 1 second before the offload. That is not 'well before'. Just trying to avoid hyperbole.


  • #1071
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    It wasn't anything like five seconds. You'd have a scrum set in that time. :pac:


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  • #1072
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hagz wrote: »
    It wasn't 5 seconds. I was asking you what you considered 'well before'. I just checked there and he slipped no more than 1 second before the offload. That is not 'well before'. Just trying to avoid hyperbole.

    Sorry hagz, but henshaw was on the ground long enough for heaslip not to throw it. It is not as if he slipped just as the ball was leaving heaslips hand.

    It was a mistake on his part.


  • #1073
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    aled wrote: »
    It is hard to credit somebody to score players associated with such an appalling performance. So I responded as such. A lot of questions to be answered by Irish rugby today. Hugely disappointed

    Mod warnings aren't up for discussion. Don't argue with a mod warning on thread again.


  • #1074
    aled
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 229 ✭✭aled


    Ok we lost. So next question is what do we need to do different. Leinster and Munster are flying at the moment. I have to say that was awful rubbish today but what can we do to change it. I am a passionate Irish fan. What is wrong?


  • #1075
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    aled wrote: »
    It is hard to credit somebody to score players associated with such an appalling performance. So I responded as such. A lot of questions to be answered by Irish rugby today. Hugely disappointed
    You should be used to TRoL by now.

    We're all disappointed. But we're rugby fans. Part of the game is assessing a performance, good or bad and trying to analyse what went right and what went wrong. Blanket praise and blanket criticism doesn't really advance anything.


  • #1076
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Sorry hagz, but henshaw was on the ground long enough for heaslip not to throw it. It is not as if he slipped just as the ball was leaving heaslips hand.

    It was a mistake on his part.

    opinionated.gif


  • #1077
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    awec wrote: »
    Sorry hagz, but henshaw was on the ground long enough for heaslip not to throw it. It is not as if he slipped just as the ball was leaving heaslips hand.

    It was a mistake on his part.

    Seriously. Watch it back. Henshaw is mid slip whilst Heaslip is throwing his offload. Yes, when the ball leaves his hands, Henshaw is on the ground.

    Look. My original comment was that if you were to criticise Heaslip’s performance today, that offload should be well down the list. Why? Because it was a 1 second moment, where his support player slipped. Does that mean I’m absolving Heaslip. Well of course not. In a perfect world, offloads should only be given when there’s a guaranteed support player there to receive them, and even then the general consensus around these parts is that they should be avoided. But come one. A bit of perspective needed. He saw Henshaw outside him, he got his arms free in the tackle and put the ball where Henshaw would have been for what would have been a try. As it happened, Henshaw slipped. Surely you can see why this is such a farfetched moment to use when criticising Heaslip's overall performance. It's embarrassing really.


  • #1078
    leakyboots
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Heaslip made more meters than any other forwards with 60. He made more tackles than either of the other back rows with 10 and none missed.

    Kearney beat 7 defenders (highest) and ran most meters ball in hand than anyone (97). Only Henshaw carried more times (19 carries v 15 for Kearney).

    Kearney had 2 clean breaks. He was best of the back 3.

    My observations are well supported statistically.

    Your selective statistics. We won't mention the two consecutive attacks ruined at critical juncture, particularly by one shocking pass forward straight in to touch when Zebo was in space. Or the missed tackles . Or the call for a Garryowen Jackson was under that he wasn't within an asses roar of and got nowhere near.

    He made a brilliant run up the right wing and broke through off a set piece move, but you've to take the bad with the good also when evaluating his performance. Have a look at Spedding and Brown and Hogg to see what effective attacking 15-play is. Kearney was very mixed today.

    Also, lauding Heaslip for 'being vocal in defence' is clutching at straws. I don't think he was as poor as some making out here was though.

    That's all from memory so will hold my hands up if wrong - I'll hold off on my own review til I see it again but I don't think many/any players covered themselves in glory today.


  • #1079
    wittycynic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    There is some hysteria over this loss, but with that said it has hard to underplay how bad a result this is for Ireland.

    Scotland are a poor team, and second teir nation. The first half performance today from Ireland was utterly abject and as bad as anything from the dying days of the Kidney era. Not a single Irish player during that first half delivered a performance worthy of the green jersey. Ponderous, flat, pedestrian, directionless, unimaginative.

    We raised our game somewhat in the second half, but we left ourselves too big a mountain to climb. Our defensive performance today was appalling. Scotland played with urgency and when they attacked they opened us up. Our backs seem to be incapable of doing the same.

    If Ireland want to be considered a big player in world rugby, you need to be beating second tier teams like Scotland comfortably every single time you play them. A bitterly disappointing result that ends, at the first hurdle, our chances of winning anything this year.


  • #1080
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Also, I think Scotland were incredibly fortunate with the penalty to go ahead, one of the Grays entered the ruck at the side to clear an Irish defender away.

    This will sound like sour grapes but the officiating was shocking. Really do feel had an impact on the result.


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  • #1081
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Hagz wrote: »
    Seriously. Watch it back. Henshaw is mid slip whilst Heaslip is throwing his offload. Yes, when the ball leaves his hands, Henshaw is on the ground.

    Look. My original comment was that if you were to criticise Heaslip’s performance today, that offload should be well down the list. Why? Because it was a 1 second moment, where his support player slipped. Does that mean I’m absolving Heaslip. Well of course not. In a perfect world, offloads should only be given when there’s a guaranteed support player there to receive them, and even then the general consensus around these parts is that they should be avoided. But come one. A bit of perspective needed. He saw Henshaw outside him, he got his arms free in the tackle and put the ball where Henshaw would have been for what would have been a try. As it happened, Henshaw slipped. Surely you can see why this is such a farfetched moment to use when criticising Heaslip's overall performance. It's embarrassing really.
    I'm not criticising his performance really, I don't really think we should single out any forward because they were all very poor for at least 40 minutes today and none of them come out with any credit.

    I am arguing against the idea that Heaslip was our best player today or that he had a good game. He didn't have a good game. In the second half it was SOB and Stander who dragged us into the game.

    I think he made mistakes, they didn't contribute to the result and are not a big deal but they are glaring errors if you want to argue he was good today.


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