Paris again?

topper75 · 03-02-2017 03:31PM

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

If LePen gets into power. The EU will be over.

Ireland will be back in the 1980s

Are you ready for that?

The end of an overreaching bullying federalist basket case institution brings us back in time?!

Step us through that process ...

HONKEY TONK · 03-02-2017 03:33PM

b_mac2 wrote: »

If it means us leaving the EU, Vive Le Pen!

And How exactly do you see Ireland supporting itself Financially.

You seem to have thought this through

HONKEY TONK · 03-02-2017 03:35PM

topper75 wrote: »

The end of an overreaching bullying federalist basket case institution brings us back in time?!

Step us through that process ...

I will ask you the same question.

How exactly do you see Ireland supporting itself Financially when the EU is gone.

ScouseMouse · 03-02-2017 03:35PM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

That terrorist could have been someone's brother, have some empathy FFS

I feel soooooo sorry for a wanker terrorist who attacked people with a knife.

Gyalist · 03-02-2017 03:35PM

topper75 wrote: »

I remember that case differently. Was he not running from police who shouted at him to stop at a high-tension time in a south London tube station (high tension as in the immediate aftermath of the 07/07/05 tube bombings)?

Still tragic mind you, but not exactly in the 'going about his day' ballpark.

Your memory is faulty as nothing of the sort happened. The inquest into his death established that the initial statements for the Met Police were, to put it kindly, misleading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Billy86 · 03-02-2017 03:36PM

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MintRoyale/status/827504765856841729

^^^ More on the Trump tweet

That's actually incorrect, he did comment on the white supremacist attack. His administration tried to infer muslims/immigrants did it to justify his recent ban, hours after it had come out that that was not the case.

topper75 · 03-02-2017 03:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose he was wearing a heavy coat with wires sticking out of it too.

07/07 was backpacks. If you fully appreciated those circumstances, you will know the officers were simply executing their less than enviable duties that day.

Very tough for that Brazilian lad's family. He had his whole life ahead of him. But all of us as adults are responsible for our actions. When police shout Stop!, the best course of action is...

Bob24 · 03-02-2017 03:38PM

ScouseMouse wrote: »

I feel soooooo sorry for a wanker terrorist who attacked people with a knife.

Maybe a detail, but he didn't attack anyone with a knife - he more specifically attacked military personnel in charge of the safety of one of the most visited museums in the world with 2 machetes.

Grayson · 03-02-2017 03:41PM

topper75 wrote: »

07/07 was backpacks. If you fully appreciated those circumstances, you will know the officers were simply executing their less than enviable duties that day.

Very tough for that Brazilian lad's family. He had his whole life ahead of him. But all of us as adults are responsible for our actions. When police shout Stop!, the best course of action is...

And to be fair, he had brown skin and that was his own fault.

topper75 · 03-02-2017 03:42PM

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I will ask you the same question.

How exactly do you see Ireland supporting itself Financially when the EU is gone.

It borrows on money markets that will not cease to exist after the EU's demise.

Moreover, the main driver behind govt revenue in Ireland (FDI due to tax concessions) would have the spectre of EU meddling ("tax harmonisation" and back payment threats) removed from the stage.

RobertKK · 03-02-2017 03:45PM

topper75 wrote: »

07/07 was backpacks. If you fully appreciated those circumstances, you will know the officers were simply executing their less than enviable duties that day.

Very tough for that Brazilian lad's family. He had his whole life ahead of him. But all of us as adults are responsible for our actions. When police shout Stop!, the best course of action is...

The police officers should have shouted 'stop' in Portuguese...

topper75 · 03-02-2017 03:45PM

Grayson wrote: »

And to be fair, he had brown skin and that was his own fault.

The melanin levels in his skin inhibited his ability to follow police orders in a high-tension scenario?

Bob24 · 03-02-2017 03:46PM

Grayson wrote: »

And to be fair, he had brown skin and that was his own fault.

Calling for racist behaviour ("brown skin" ...) our of nowhere is not going to win any points ... all it can do is make the discussion less civilised :-/

Jelle1880 · 03-02-2017 03:48PM

topper75 wrote: »

The melanin levels in his skin inhibited his ability to follow police orders in a high-tension scenario?

Which orders were that ?

From the wiki article posted above:

Police initially stated that they challenged Menezes and ordered him to stop outside Stockwell station. Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said in a later press conference that a warning was issued prior to the shooting. Lee Ruston, an eyewitness who was waiting on the platform, said the police did not identify themselves. The Times reported 'senior police sources' as saying that police policy would not require a warning to be given to a suspected suicide bomber before lethal action was taken.[102]

The leaked IPCC documents indicated that Menezes was seated on the train carriage when the SO19 armed unit arrived. A shout of 'police' may have been made, but the suspect never really had an opportunity to respond before he was shot. The leaked documents indicated that he was restrained by an undercover officer before being shot.

During the 2008 inquest into Menezes's death, passengers who were travelling in the same carriage also contradicted police accounts, saying that they heard no warnings and that Menezes gave no significant reaction to arrival of the policemen. One passenger said that Menezes appeared calm even as a gun was held to his head and was clear that the police officers did not shout any warnings before shooting him.[103]

In its open verdict on 12 December 2008, the jury decided 8 to 2 that no shouted warning had been given.[104]

Trent Houseboat · 03-02-2017 03:51PM

topper75 wrote: »

07/07 was backpacks. If you fully appreciated those circumstances, you will know the officers were simply executing their less than enviable duties that day.

Very tough for that Brazilian lad's family. He had his whole life ahead of him. But all of us as adults are responsible for our actions. When police shout Stop!, the best course of action is...

That was the official lie that was put out at the time, but it later came to light that he never jumped the barrier and he was in his seat on the train when the police identified themselves, not running away.

RobertKK wrote: »

The police officers should have shouted 'stop' in Portuguese...

It would have been nice if they'd said it in English, but that would interfere with your joke about a innocent dead man.

Grayson · 03-02-2017 03:52PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Implying another poster is racist ("brown skin" ...) when you disagree with them is not going to win any points ... all it can do is make the discussion less civilised :-/

I never implied the poster was. I was implying the police were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Unaware the station was closed, the surveillance officers said they believed that Menezes's behaviour suggested that he might have been one of the previous day's failed bomb suspects. Officers claimed that Mr Menezes' behaviour appeared 'suspicious'.[8] They later stated that they were satisfied that they had the correct man, noting that he 'had Mongolian eyes'.

He wasn't challenged. A number of plain clothes police jumped him and then started shooting him. They identified themselves as police after the shooting started.

The firearms officers boarded the train and it was initially claimed they challenged the suspect, though later reports indicate he was not challenged.[12] According to Hotel 3, Menezes then stood up and advanced towards the officers and Hotel 3, at which point Hotel 3 grabbed him, pinned his arms against his torso, and pushed him back into the seat. Although Menezes was being restrained, his body was straight and not in a natural sitting position. Hotel 3 heard a shot close to his ear, and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage. He shouted 'Police!' and with hands raised was dragged out of the carriage by one of the armed officers who had boarded the train. Hotel 3 then heard several gunshots while being dragged out.[13]
Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty shell casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range, and died at the scene. An eyewitness later said that the eleven shots were fired over a thirty-second period, at three second intervals.[14] A separate witness reported hearing five shots, followed at an interval by several more shots.[15]
Immediately after the shooting, the Metropolitan Police stated that the shooting was 'directly linked' to the investigation of the attempted bombings the previous day. It was revealed that police policy toward suspected suicide bombers had been revised, and that officers had been ordered to fire directly toward suspects' heads, the theory according to British authorities being that shooting at the chest could conceivably detonate a concealed bomb.[16]

If you go back earlier in the story they followed him because he had dark skin and was near where they suspected the bombers to be. At no point did they confirm that he was one of the bombers.

It was a cluster fcuk of massive proportions.

Mr. Incognito · 03-02-2017 03:52PM

topper75 wrote: »

I remember that case differently. Was he not running from police who shouted at him to stop at a high-tension time in a south London tube station (high tension as in the immediate aftermath of the 07/07/05 tube bombings)?

Still tragic mind you, but not exactly in the 'going about his day' ballpark.

Wow.

It's actually incredible the misinformation that sticks around. He wasn't running away. He was shot on the train at close range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Menezes entered the Tube station at about 10:00am, stopping to pick up a free newspaper. He used his Oyster card to pay the fare, walked through the barriers, and descended the escalator. He then ran across the platform to board the newly arrived train. Menezes boarded the train and found one of the first available seats.

Three surveillance officers, codenamed Hotel 1, Hotel 3 and Hotel 9, followed Menezes onto the train. According to Hotel 3, Menezes sat down with a glass panel to his right about two seats in. Hotel 3 then took a seat on the left with about two or three passengers between Menezes and himself. When the firearms officers arrived on the platform, Hotel 3 moved to the door, blocked it from closing with his left foot, and shouted 'He's here!' to identify the suspect's location.
Shooting

The firearms officers boarded the train and it was initially claimed they challenged the suspect, though later reports indicate he was not challenged.[12] According to Hotel 3, Menezes then stood up and advanced towards the officers and Hotel 3, at which point Hotel 3 grabbed him, pinned his arms against his torso, and pushed him back into the seat. Although Menezes was being restrained, his body was straight and not in a natural sitting position. Hotel 3 heard a shot close to his ear, and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage. He shouted 'Police!' and with hands raised was dragged out of the carriage by one of the armed officers who had boarded the train. Hotel 3 then heard several gunshots while being dragged out.[13]

Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty shell casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range, and died at the scene. An eyewitness later said that the eleven shots were fired over a thirty-second period, at three second intervals.[14] A separate witness reported hearing five shots, followed at an interval by several more shots.[15]

The jury in the case after hearing the Evidence decised that the Police statements were a pack of lies.

03-02-2017 03:53PM

topper75 wrote: »

07/07 was backpacks. If you fully appreciated those circumstances, you will know the officers were simply executing their less than enviable duties that day.

Very tough for that Brazilian lad's family. He had his whole life ahead of him. But all of us as adults are responsible for our actions. When police shout Stop!, the best course of action is...

So the Police were found to have failed in their duty of care but hey, **** happens I guess? Link to where the cops shouted stop? Because they allowed him to get onto the train (despite orders apparently given not to, having tailed him on a bus jounrey) and the people there said there was no warning given.

Felix Jones is God · 03-02-2017 03:57PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

One said it never happens in Real life.

And it doesn't in an instantaneous situation, it's actively discouraged. look it up there for yourself

Mary63 · 03-02-2017 04:00PM

The Police are so brave putting their lives on the line for the rest of us.Mistakes happen in times of heightened security.The people who caused the terror alert in London that day are responsible for the Brazilian man death and not Police who have seconds to stop mass carnage.

Also if he had stayed in the seat and not advanced towards the officers he would still be alive, it was a panic situation and caused by terrorists.

Grayson · 03-02-2017 04:01PM

Mary63 wrote: »

The Police are so brave putting their lives on the line for the rest of us.Mistakes happen in times of heightened security.The people who caused the terror alert in London that day are responsible for the Brazilian man death and not Police who have seconds to stop mass carnage.

Also if he had stayed in the seat and not advanced towards the officers he would still be alive, it was a panic situation and caused by terrorists.

*cough* Bullsh1t *cough*

He walked towards people he didn't know were police so it's his fault he was shot 7 times in the head over a 30 second period.

Shurimgreat · 03-02-2017 04:07PM

Unfortunate, but the average person has far more chance of being a victim of choking or being hit by a bus crossing the road. Its important to keep all this in context. Terrorism is nothing new, its been around for thousands of years in one shape or another.

The problem the French have however is there are thousands of radicalised citizens and you can't keep track of them all. The French seem to be getting better at the intelligence side of things but bar technology that read minds, you can't predict when and where the next terrorist will act.

Mr. Incognito · 03-02-2017 04:08PM

Mary63 wrote: »

The Police are so brave putting their lives on the line for the rest of us.Mistakes happen in times of heightened security.The people who caused the terror alert in London that day are responsible for the Brazilian man death and not Police who have seconds to stop mass carnage.

Also if he had stayed in the seat and not advanced towards the officers he would still be alive, it was a panic situation and caused by terrorists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

What terrorists? What panic situation exactly? This was two weeks after the London bombings.

It was an execution carried out by misinformed police.

This happens all the time. In the US, in Britain, In Brazil, in any country you have armed police.

We do not know the suspect, his identity, his motives, the facts.

Anything the police say until this is established should not be treated as the whole truth and nothing but the truth based on experiences of the media so far. They almost always get it wrong initially.

On Friday, 12 December 2008 the inquest into Jean Charles' death returned an open verdict.[94] Their answers to the specific questions and contributory facts were as follows. In the latter portion, the answers 'yes', 'no', and 'can't decide' were determined by the jury while answering the broader question 'which of these other factors, if any, contributed to the death.'[95]
Questions of fact
Did firearms officer C12 shout 'armed police'? No
Did Mr Menezes stand up from his seat before he was grabbed in a bear hug by officer Ivor? Yes
Did Mr Menezes move towards C12 before he was grabbed in a bear hug by Ivor? No

Mary63 · 03-02-2017 04:11PM

Did anyone else in the carriage get up and walk towards the Police, they were putting their lives on the line too and they are extremely brave.

Again that death is the responsibility of the people who caused the terrorist situation and not on the Police whose duty it is to protect the public.

Its very easy for jurists who are never in the front line of madmen with hatchets to decide the facts after the events.

ETA, fifty two people had been murdered in London two weeks previously so the city was under a terror alert.Its always under a terror alert and if it wasn't for the security services an awful lot more people would be murdered too.We all own these people a debt of gratitude for our freedom to go where we please and not be murdered by mad ISIS terrorists filled with hate and high on drugs.

Mr. Incognito · 03-02-2017 04:20PM

Mary63 wrote: »

Did anyone else in the carriage get up and walk towards the Police, they were putting their lives on the line too and they are extremely brave.

Again that death is the responsibility of the people who caused the terrorist situation and not on the Police whose duty it is to protect the public.

Its very easy for jurists who are never in the front line of madmen with hatchets to decide the facts after the events.

I would suggest that you read the actual facts of the case.

Your response to everything seems to be Ah sure they're very brave and its not their fault they shot an innocent man in the head seven times without warning because of their own incompetance.

The police have a job to do. It's a hard job. It's a tough job. They deal with actual terrorists and murderers and criminals and all sorts of crap. But that power cannot be absolute. It must be tempered by intelligence, and restraint. In general it is not however.

One thing about cops thought is they protect their own. If this lad turns out to be a terrorist then fair play and god bless them.

If he turns out to be a tourist or a local parisian who was pissed off they wouldnt let him in with his bags and he advanced on one soilder giving out and he was shot by another (as appears to be the account) and turned out to have a swiss army knife on his keyring then the media frenzy, and Islamaphobic tweet that the Donald has put out is more sensationalist nonsense. At present I cant tell which it is but I find the latter more likely. I dont think a "terrorist" is going to be strolling around with two bag packs and getting cranky when he is not allowed in. I would think they'd be slightly more organised than that.

Butters1979 · 03-02-2017 04:21PM

The terrorist apologists have managed to deflect to a police shooting in London from 10 years ago.
We're not sure if this incident in Paris is terrorism yet, but can we talk about the incident and what facts we have instead of trump and other unrelated ****e?

RobertKK · 03-02-2017 04:22PM

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

It would have been nice if they'd said it in English, but that would interfere with your joke about a innocent dead man.

I was not joking, I mean if I was in a foreign country where the language is not English, how am I exp0ected to know what stop is in a froeign language, how am I to obey if I don't know what was being said?

I was just pointing out that the man may not haven know the word stop, the last thing I would do about him is make it into a joke.

Mr. Incognito · 03-02-2017 04:25PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

The terrorist apologists have managed to deflect to a police shooting in London from 10 years ago.
We're not sure if this incident in Paris is terrorism yet, but can we talk about the incident and what facts we have instead of trump and other unrelated ****e?

Its impossible to talk about the incident yet becase we dont have the facts.

All we can do is surmise likely causes.

1. Unhinged Terrorist
2. Police over reaction to aggrivated person.

Seems to be the jist of it.

Just because people are contemplating number 2 based on past actual experiences doesnt make them "terrorist apologists"- (what does that even mean btw). It just means they are capable of rational thought which sadly a lot of bigots are not as they cling to irrational thought and hatred and fear like our friend Donald who, without knowing the identity of the shot individual has already named him as Islamic.

Will he care if it turns out to be a white Christian?

Butters1979 · 03-02-2017 04:32PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Its impossible to talk about the incident yet becase we dont have the facts.

All we can do is surmise likely causes.

1. Unhinged Terrorist
2. Police over reaction to aggrivated person.

Seems to be the jist of it.

Just because people are contemplating number 2 based on past actual experiences doesnt make them "terrorist apologists"- (what does that even mean btw). It just means they are capable of rational thought which sadly a lot of bigots are not as they cling to irrational thought and hatred and fear.

There is history of terroist attacks
There is history of police unlawful killings
There is history of lone nut cases

None of these prove what this is. Only time will tell with that. But everything that happens now certain posters come on to tell us how anyone assuming it's a terrorist attack is been racist and stupid and then goes on to argue it's something else.

A terrorist apologised is someone who tries to blame the society that is targeted to absolve the perpetrators. This, as much as terrorism in the first place, helps push people to the right.

learn_more · 03-02-2017 04:33PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Wow.

It's actually incredible the misinformation that sticks around. He wasn't running away. He was shot on the train at close range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

The jury in the case after hearing the Evidence decised that the Police statements were a pack of lies.

Yes but you can forgive ppl for thinking that that was the case because that was the story that the British put out at the time in a deliberate attempt to conceal what really happened knowing full well that when the real story emerged the story would not be so much in the public eye. Absolutely despicable what they did.

Paris again?

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