Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

swiwi_ · 30-01-2017 10:56PM

Synode wrote: »

This is a Gatland Lions team. No chance there'll only be 4 Welsh players

I hope the debate gets above this.

Maybe it's just me but this comment is wheeled out incessantly by Irish rugby fans on multiple rugby forums.

It's just reeks of chip on shoulder.

I doubt Gatland feels remotely a massive allegiance to Wales such that he will ignore form and just robotically stack the lions with Welsh players.

It's kind of stuck record stuff at this stage although maybe I'm in a group of one holding this view...

Synode · 30-01-2017 11:57PM

You're entitled to your view, just as I am mine. And for me he showed clear preference to Welsh players, especially over Irish players in 2013.

But this has been done to death so let's leave it there and see what the squad looks like when he picks it

THFC198 · 31-01-2017 12:14AM

I know it's announced post Heineken Cup QF but do we have an exact squad date?

The Lost Sheep · 31-01-2017 12:16AM

THFC198 wrote: »

I know it's announced post Heineken Cup QF but do we have an exact squad date?

Google it...
Think its 2/3 weeks after european quarters.

bilston · 31-01-2017 12:33AM

Synode wrote: »

You're entitled to your view, just as I am mine. And for me he showed clear preference to Welsh players, especially over Irish players in 2013.

But this has been done to death so let's leave it there and see what the squad looks like when he picks it

Wales were 6Ns champions in 2013 and GS champions in 2012, Ireland only avoided the Wooden Spoon on points difference in 2013. The Welsh players merited selection.

We'll see what happens in the forthcoming Championship.

31-01-2017 12:46AM

bilston wrote: »

Wales were 6Ns champions in 2013 and GS champions in 2012, Ireland only avoided the Wooden Spoon on points difference in 2013. The Welsh players merited selection.

We'll see what happens in the forthcoming Championship.

Yeah. There was an argument for all of the decisions made. It was certainly disappointing to see 10 Welsh players in the final test but it's also unfair to say that any of them didn't deserve to be there.

Yeah_Right · 31-01-2017 01:19AM

swiwi_ wrote: »

I hope the debate gets above this.

Maybe it's just me but this comment is wheeled out incessantly by Irish rugby fans on multiple rugby forums.

It's just reeks of chip on shoulder.

I doubt Gatland feels remotely a massive allegiance to Wales such that he will ignore form and just robotically stack the lions with Welsh players.

It's kind of stuck record stuff at this stage although maybe I'm in a group of one holding this view...

I agree and disagree with you on this. Some Irish fans definitely do have a chip about Gatland. These fans believe that every Irish player (and their back ups) are better than their Welsh counterparts. It's an extension of the one-eyed provincialism that we tend see from some fans.

I don't think Gatland will shoot himself in the foot by picking a lesser player purely because he is Welsh. I do think that any 50/50 decisions between a Welsh player and one from another country, will lean towards the Welsh player due to familiarity. Gatland obviously knows the Welsh players better. And all coaches have their favourites.

swiwi_ · 31-01-2017 06:05AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree and disagree with you on this. Some Irish fans definitely do have a chip about Gatland. These fans believe that every Irish player (and their back ups) are better than their Welsh counterparts. It's an extension of the one-eyed provincialism that we tend see from some fans.

I don't think Gatland will shoot himself in the foot by picking a lesser player purely because he is Welsh. I do think that any 50/50 decisions between a Welsh player and one from another country, will lean towards the Welsh player due to familiarity. Gatland obviously knows the Welsh players better. And all coaches have their favourites.

If it's genuinely a 50/50 decision, then it's not unreasonable to go with the devil you know than the one you don't.

In Ireland, the local/loyalty card permeates its way all through society. It's both a strength and a weakness. But people just assume that the local will favour the locals, because that tends to be the way Irish society works, it's why some Munster fans just assume Schmidt will automatically favour Leinster players.

I don't think you can take that world view and apply it outside of Irish borders.

I don't really like Gatland myself, mouth is too big for my liking, but he certainly has a tendancy to be a bit of a cult-hate figure among Irish rugby fans.

I won't agree with all his selection decisions for the Lions, but it won't be a case of simply picking as many Welsh players as possible.

THFC198 · 31-01-2017 12:18PM

In fairness to Gatland, in 2013 Wales were the form team and he picked a team to win the series. Of course from an Irish point of view it's annoying that there were so few of the lads invovled. I think Gatland will pick a much more varied 23 this time as all 4 home nations are very much on the up (with Wales imo in the weakest position as they are going through a serious transition cycle)

lawred2 · 31-01-2017 12:23PM

It isn't the Lions for me if it doesn't have reasonable involvement from the four nations...

Scottish, Irish and English people falling over themselves to support a predominantly Welsh side beat a poor Australia side was a bit cringey for me.

But I get why a coach like Gatland would select such a 15.

THFC198 · 31-01-2017 12:27PM

I think the wider squad will always have a fair representation of each respective nation (mainly to stop one of the unions flipping out if they were completely left out) but imo once the squad comes together, national teams should very much take a back seat. The Lions is such a unique squad and I'd say once you're their it's irrelevant which nation you came from, much like the the lads from different provinces coming together for the Irish team

Granny15 · 31-01-2017 01:20PM

If I were picking the Lions tomorrow I would have the entire English front five with possibly one of Farrell Joseph and Brown also starting.

Much as I hate to say it - that's the lay of land at the moment.

Granny15 · 31-01-2017 01:21PM

Minus Hartley

lawred2 · 31-01-2017 01:34PM

THFC198 wrote: »

I think the wider squad will always have a fair representation of each respective nation (mainly to stop one of the unions flipping out if they were completely left out) but imo once the squad comes together, national teams should very much take a back seat. The Lions is such a unique squad and I'd say once you're their it's irrelevant which nation you came from, much like the the lads from different provinces coming together for the Irish team

not remotely the same

One is a national side. The other is a touring exhibition side.

Bazzo · 31-01-2017 01:36PM

Granny15 wrote: »

If I were picking the Lions tomorrow I would have the entire English front five with possibly one of Farrell Joseph and Brown also starting.

Much as I hate to say it - that's the lay of land at the moment.

Don't think Dan Cole brings as much to the table as Furlong at the moment. In fact I'd say he's a little overrated, gets a bit of a pass because the rest of the tight 5 are so good.

Granny15 · 31-01-2017 01:58PM

Bazzo wrote: »

Don't think Dan Cole brings as much to the table as Furlong at the moment. In fact I'd say he's a little overrated, gets a bit of a pass because the rest of the tight 5 are so good.

I'd have him in there plus probably Vunipola at 8.

flangemeistro · 31-01-2017 02:08PM

It's lucky for the other three nations that Schmidt wasn't allowed put his name down for contention as it would be a squad of 32 Irish.

Sure how could anyone else be selected when they're "not familiar with the setup"

lawred2 · 31-01-2017 02:50PM

chortle

THFC198 · 31-01-2017 03:23PM

lawred2 wrote: »

not remotely the same

One is a national side. The other is a touring exhibition side.

Obviously they're not the same type of team,there is many differences between a national and a lions team. My point was merely saying that fans would still support an Irish team if it was made of purely Munster players (or Connacht, Ulster or Leinster players). I certainly wouldn't expect Irish fans to just not support the team because they're favourite players weren't picked. In my opinion, and this is where people may disagree, the lions team is effectively a 'national' team that only plays every 4 years and is incredibly hard to make, which makes it special for players and fans alike

lawred2 · 31-01-2017 03:37PM

THFC198 wrote: »

Obviously they're not the same type of team,there is many differences between a national and a lions team. My point was merely saying that fans would still support an Irish team if it was made of purely Munster players (or Connacht, Ulster or Leinster players). I certainly wouldn't expect Irish fans to just not support the team because they're favourite players weren't picked. In my opinion, and this is where people may disagree, the lions team is effectively a 'national' team that only plays every 4 years and is incredibly hard to make, which makes it special for players and fans alike

Yeah I definitely disagree

bilston · 31-01-2017 07:51PM

Granny15 wrote: »

If I were picking the Lions tomorrow I would have the entire English front five with possibly one of Farrell Joseph and Brown also starting.

Much as I hate to say it - that's the lay of land at the moment.

Furlong would surely be in there?

blackdog1 · 31-01-2017 09:18PM

bilston wrote:

Furlong would surely be in there?

I would have furlong. Cole has been very poor this year for club and country. Very weak year for tight heads especially with nel looking like he's gone now too...I see fanning bigging up behlam....God help us all

Bridge93 · 31-01-2017 10:49PM

Yeah bar injury Furlong is going to start. Samson Lee and Cole playing for bench although I'd have Nel if he gets fit

thomond2006 · 31-01-2017 10:52PM

Who is this "Furlong"? His name is Tadhg Furligind.

blackdog1 · 31-01-2017 10:56PM

thomond2006 wrote:

Who is this "Furlong"? His name is Tadhg Furligind.

Furlong is going great but he has to keep up his standard of scrummaging. England will be a big test for him Scotland had a good scrum but not with nel and dickinson injured. France are average and so are Wales. Italy are just solid.

Bazzo · 31-01-2017 11:35PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Furlong is going great but he has to keep up his standard of scrummaging. England will be a big test for him Scotland had a good scrum but not with nel and dickinson injured. France are average and so are Wales. Italy are just solid.

Not sure if I'd call the French scrum "average" ....

English Lurker · 01-02-2017 05:27AM

Funny how people see these things. I'd shove in the entire Irish front row to start without a second thought on current form and I know I'm not the only Englishman to see things that way.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree and disagree with you on this. Some Irish fans definitely do have a chip about Gatland. These fans believe that every Irish player (and their back ups) are better than their Welsh counterparts. It's an extension of the one-eyed provincialism that we tend see from some fans.

I don't think Gatland will shoot himself in the foot by picking a lesser player purely because he is Welsh. I do think that any 50/50 decisions between a Welsh player and one from another country, will lean towards the Welsh player due to familiarity. Gatland obviously knows the Welsh players better. And all coaches have their favourites.

Worth remembering that Gatland's not the only coach there and he won't insist on winning every selection battle. Vunipola and Stephens touring in 2013 is a great example of a coach sticking to what he knows, but the coach in question sure wasn't Gatland...

Buer · 01-02-2017 10:21AM

I'd imagine Andy Farrell's presence will be a boost to Irish chances. The work rate and defensive work of guys like Furlong, Toner, McGrath and Henshaw will earn them a healthy endorsement from him, I'd imagine.

But, as always, the 6N is going to be the real factor in all of this. If Ireland blow it and lose a couple of games, the representation is going to be severely affected.

razorblunt · 01-02-2017 11:03AM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Yeah bar injury Furlong is going to start. Samson Lee and Cole playing for bench although I'd have Nel if he gets fit

He's undergone surgery on his neck so it's going to be a hell of a race for him to get back. He could also do with Edinburgh progressing in Europe to keep the profile high.

blackdog1 · 01-02-2017 09:55PM

Bazzo wrote:

Not sure if I'd call the French scrum "average" ....

French scrum has been average for a while now. They've had no quality loose heads of late. Slimani is a good tight though.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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