Louise O Neill on rape culture.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Plus a friend of mine read LoN's 'Only Ever Yours' book-and called it a 'total ripoff of the Handmaid's tale' (Yeah, she's a female friend of mine-just friends tho, gives me good advice on dating other girls tho) but nowhere near as good. Got bored, found it meh-just put it down after a while. She was the target audience at the time too.

Is there a particular reason you clarified that, about your female friend I mean?

ivytwine wrote: »

Jesus I know no-one like that thankfully. Selfish assholes.

I know and have seen too many-and your words are a lot kinder than mine would be.

ivytwine wrote: »

Ah I actually just thought about a friend whose opinion I respect a lot but it's... wryly amusing to me I suppose.

No offence meant Widdershins!

Bear in mind this is from the Irish Cancer Soc so they won't want smoking to look good but yeah, some of the advertising tactics in the 50s/60s were very scummy. And the antics of companies in legal suits also. FOREST Eireann ("smokers advocacy group") are funded by the tobacco industry.

https://www.cancer.ie/reduce-your-risk/health-education/X-HALE-youth-awards/how-tobacco-industry-targets-young

http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(7)902.pdf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Eireann

The more information to strengthen my giving-up resolve, the better.

neonsofa wrote: »

Is there a particular reason you clarified that, about your female friend I mean?

Yeah, good catch there. (No sarcasm, gonna explain it here)

(totally off topic, btw)
I had an...interesting, to say the least, experience a few months ago. Well, there was this girl/ young woman (so I don't trigger any one) who I was friends with, she was dating a guy, I met her while she was dating some one, we had similar backgrounds in life (grew up on farms, etc).
Well, weirdly, despite her having a boyfriend, she would often be pretty friendly towards me, buying me beer (12 packs, to put in the fridge-then proceeding to drink em with me. I'd always return the favour-ya know, back and forth kind of thing), offering to give me a lift here and there. That kind of thing...but anytime I'd mention a girl, or a girl I'd like, there would be tension (keep in mind, she's seeing a guy-hence I was like, oh safe territory here). So I 'd mention girls I was friends with, and notice the sort of 'who that b!tch' look on her face. I know her boyfriend, not friends with him, but have a chat a few times. I got into a habit of saying 'just a friend' about those ladies-not mentioning the one's I liked either.

A few months of friendship, and one day I was talking to her, and I was like 'work was tough, it was irritating in the last few months...but at least I made a friend (referring to her)'. Well, the reception I got was frosty...she didn't get violent, or anything, but a real sarcastic tone came over in her voice.

I cut off contact, slowly, after that-became less available. Last I heard, the guy had broken up with her-but I was in my own thing by then.

So yeah-still trying to get that habit out of my system.

ivytwine wrote: »

Honestly I do understand how representation matters. Growing up I had a fair amount of good female role models on TV and possibly more importantly in music. BUT there's a fine line between representation and tokenism and it's leaning a bit the other way.

And for me, despite being a woman, I have found that stories of men can speak just as deeply to me. I watched Whiplash recently and having a background in music, that story and that lead character spoke to me far more than a thousand new Star Wars flicks. I dunno, I guess it's almost like we're all human beings or something?

I hate proscribing what anyone reads, it's not unfeminist of someone to want to spend a year reading James Patterson. To me reading and music (and watching movies and TV to a lesser extent) is such a deeply personal thing that I feel quite resentful of anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't consume. I also am quite generally colour/gender blind when it comes to these things. I don't really care about the author, and proper book fans don't either.

Louise O'Neill at least should know as a fiction writer that writing is a process that comes from deep within. You don't set out to write something to tick all the boxes, you tell the story that's burning in you to be told. Any attempt at changing it to fit in with other people's opinions is just art by committee.

As for Eileen Battersby's list... well damn it. Some woman write something as perfectly prescient and terrifying as 1984 and off it goes into the record books. I would argue she could have bumped it into 7 books and put Margaret Attwood's The Handmaid's Tale in there, it's a fantastic book.

I think everyone looks to media, be it books, films or music for characters that they can identify with or who they feel represents them. Be it the strong one, the clever one, the sneaky one. Someone they root for. Its been easier in the past for boys/men, because the people saving the day or thrashing hotel rooms have been been male, so one less barrier to cross when identifying with that character.

There's been a definite shift in popular culture towards stronger female characters who anyone can identify with. Starbuck in BSG for example. The thing with Starbuck was she is a great character. Part of any good character is they have strengths, and they have flaws and contradictions, which they overcome. The flaws being important, so they are recognisably human. So that people don't see the wires and feel the challenges the characters faces are genuine. Good characters draw you in to the story. They define a well written and told story.

Weak characters, be they male or female, will kill peoples interest in the story. You're right that when people start working through a checklist of targets they want to hit, rather than worrying about a story and strong characters. I think some have had "Strong Female Lead" on their checklist without worrying about creating a compelling character to go with that. Its bad writing looking for the excuse of good intentions.

The thing about SW is it is bad writing. The Rey character is a mary sue, but that's just another symptom of really bad writing. Its not as if the rest of the plot and the characters are well written and the Rey character is an aberration inserted purely for gender politics. The male characters (such as Kylo and Finn) are equally poorly written. And their interactions are poorly directed. Just a lot of bad writers producing crap with a bad director but trying to excuse it by saying "Strong female lead".

py2006 wrote: »

That is interesting, I have been in that situation 2 or 3 times in my life.

Yeah, it was really, really weird. Like, don't get me wrong, she was a pretty girl, had a job, that sort of thing. Seemed confident enough in herself-used to introduce me to family and friends (which sort of felt like vetting tbh-her sister knew stuff I told her, and that was odd to me. Her sis is married, so I know it wasn't like 'hey sis, I found you a man!' kind of introduction) it was just really, really odd.
Plus if we had a disagreement, it would really, really bother her-but if her boyfriend did the same thing, or if her friends did, no issue there at all.
(I think I may have made her cry due to one of these disagreements. And it wasn't like it was a screaming match, it was barely anything, in my eyes).

And I'm not like I'm some amazingly handsome stud-I'm just a guy.

But I don't wanna go off topic-just remember how bizarre it was. I noticed I still have little habits left in my dialogue too.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yeah, it was really, really weird. Like, don't get me wrong, she was a pretty girl, had a job, that sort of thing. Seemed confident enough in herself-used to introduce me to family and friends (which sort of felt like vetting tbh-her sister knew stuff I told her, and that was odd to me. Her sis is married, so I know it wasn't like 'hey sis, I found you a man!' kind of introduction) it was just really, really odd.
Plus if we had a disagreement, it would really, really bother her-but if her boyfriend did the same thing, or if her friends did, no issue there at all.
(I think I may have made her cry due to one of these disagreements. And it wasn't like it was a screaming match, it was barely anything, in my eyes).

And I'm not like I'm some amazingly handsome stud-I'm just a guy.

But I don't wanna go off topic-just remember how bizarre it was. I noticed I still have little habits left in my dialogue too.

It sounds like she was very taken with you.

mzungu wrote: »

FYP :pac::pac:

Well considering LoN wrote an article stating she's 'only gonna read books written primarily by women, and now she's gonna read books only by minority women'...

Then goes on a diatribe about how Plato and Descartes are no longer relevant...

I remember watching 'The View' aka John Kelly's old show, and they were discussing the Superhero movie of the week-and then there was a discussion by tow of the women regarding gender in superheroes. Interestingly, one of the women had the view that, for her, the genders didn't matter. IT was often about 'identifying' with the characters, not about their genders.
Now, I will say, I agree to a certain extent. I know books like 'looking for a face like mine' regarding race and other topics discuss the whole feeling of representation in film and comic books as a black youth. Marvel Comics first black Superhero was an African King called the Black Panther. But a lot of writers, and readers, who are African American, often lament him, or hate him, as they feel he doesn't represent them.
But Luke Cage, they far more empathise with, as when he emerged, more people identified with a hero living in a poor ghetto, than a rich guy living in a kingdom.
I think representation is important, but if someone, be they male or female, identifies with a hero who is not of the same gender, they should not be castigated for it. Young boys loved Leia just as much as young girls, but they loved her for different reasons.

professore wrote: »

but her defence of drinking when pregnant sounds like big tobacco's defence of smoking not causing cancer.

That is just ridiculous.

mzungu wrote: »

Aye, it is also down to how the character is written. A few examples being Sigourney Weaver in the Alien films, Linda Hamilton in Terminator 1 & 2 and Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs. I think most people will relate to characters (both male and female) as long as they are well written.

Yes, and I very much believe that it also comes down to the right casting too. Ripley in the Alien films was written with a male in mind. It was a last minute change that made Ripley female. I don't think the character would be so interesting without Sigourney in the lead.
For example, when Sarah Connor had Lena Heady playing her in the TV show, she actually was pretty interesting in the role. Not Linda Hamilton, mind you, but not insulting to the character either. But I still prefer Hamilton, based on how she allowed the character evolve from the first film to the second film.
On the other hand, Emilia Clarke in Genysis...she's pretty terrible.

Jodie Foster absolutely nails Clarice Starling in the Silence of the Lambs. She's great in the role.
But when Hannibal was made a few years later, with Julianne Moore playing her...dear God, was she bad. Like, to me, Moore is an actress I never really connected with. Her movies are often miserable slogs, she has no comedic timing, and if she's in a comedy, it's gonna suck. (Big Lebowski doesn't require her to be a comedian). But her playing of Clarice in Hannibal is pretty horrific. The movie is a bizarre 'funny even if its not meant to be' movie, tbh. But Moore and co don't help kill the film.

mzungu wrote: »

Aye, it is also down to how the character is written. A few examples being Sigourney Weaver in the Alien films, Linda Hamilton in Terminator 1 & 2 and Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs. I think most people will relate to characters (both male and female) as long as they are well written.

Vasquez from Aliens is another example. She is a badass throughout the film. Her gender is secondary. I think its only referenced once:

"Hey, Vasquez. Have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
"No. Have you?"