Students want freebies

jackofalltrades · 28-01-2017 02:56PM

I think student loans would be a good idea based on the vague suggestions in this thread.
0% loans and you only start paying back the loan once you start earning above a certain level.

The current system can either be very fair or very unfair depending on your circumstances.
Your going to college and are going to get the most benefit from the qualification, so why not pay for it.
Something needs to be done, because the €3,000 registration fees make it next to impossible to go to college for people that can't get this funded through some kind of government assistance.
That and student loans at the moment are a joke, high interest rates and idiotic repayment schedules.

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 02:59PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Indeed, and although my comment was glib I was making a serious point. I wasn't taught philosophy in school either being a product of the English and Scottish systems. It's a great shame and one that would result in more thought going into discussions like this one, that many people have and which inform our voting choices.

Agreed 100%.

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

One wouldn't really expect unions to, but academics who have a privileged position (in my opinion given workloads vs pay) have a duty to ensure they are putting forward the best possible proposals for research funding and providing the best possible teaching to students. In my experience they, in the main, do not despite very reasonable remuneration.

Based on my own experience, the problem is time. Senior academics have to almost all of their time applying for grants. Then there is teaching, grading, training, etc... But without grants, they have no income. Even tenured professors must do it or they'll have noone under them to carry out research.

28-01-2017 03:00PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i am, also struggle to formulate my thoughts into text unfortunately

Are you a supporter of one of those ridiculous political parties like people before profit?

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 03:05PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Based on my own experience, the problem is time. Senior academics have to almost all of their time applying for grants. Then there is teaching, grading, training, etc... But without grants, they have no income. Even tenured professors must do it or they'll have noone under them to carry out research.

I don't doubt this is your personal experience for one second, as it's very possible it's happening in certain sectors. It's certainly not happening in all sectors, and it was wrong of me to not make it clearer I can only speak from a certain sector.

I personally don't believe fees and loans are the right course. However I certainly respect people's right to differ especially when they provide some insight into the opposing opinion!

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 03:07PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

I don't doubt this is your personal experience for one second, as it's very possible it's happening in certain sectors. It's certainly not happening in all sectors, and it was wrong of me to not make it clearer I can only speak from a certain sector.

I personally don't believe fees and loans are the right course. However I certainly respect people's right to differ especially when they provide some insight into the opposing opinion!

I was working in science. I couldn't possibly comment on any other sector. The grant system, if it applies in the Humanities and elsewhere is likely a bit part of the problem.

I don't know about loans and fees but I do think the student should should some of the cost or you get people going to University simply because their friends are going.

Permabear · 28-01-2017 03:07PM

This post has been deleted.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 03:18PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was working in science. I couldn't possibly comment on any other sector. The grant system, if it applies in the Humanities and elsewhere is likely a bit part of the problem.

I don't know about loans and fees but I do think the student should should some of the cost or you get people going to University simply because their friends are going.

I'm 100% with you on reform of going for the craic, although there is something to be said for the college experience, in of itself. We get too caught up in academia for its own sake. I personally would love to see the option of someone going to mechanics or plumper school rather than forcing themselves into a 3rd rate computing degree because Aunty Flo reckons 'he's good with computers' because he spends all his time on his Xbox.

unfortunately · 28-01-2017 03:19PM

If there's one class of people destroying Ireland, it's students.

El_Duderino 09 · 28-01-2017 03:22PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

I do think we have perfect social mobility either. This idea of giving grants to poorer people is specifically designed to help with that.

Wanderer78 wrote:

hmmm 'perfect' doesnt sit too well with me, no such thing really. what do you define as 'perfect'?

DON'T! Crikey autocorrect stiffed me.

I don't think we have a perfect system of and this move is designed to help address that.

Boaty · 28-01-2017 03:22PM

shane9689 wrote: »

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

You did a nonsense "Arts with music degree" what do you expect. If people didn't get third level for free they would put more effort into choosing their career path rather than saying "Feck it I'm going to college it will be good craic"

Yourself isit · 28-01-2017 03:23PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Neither philosophy not economics are very rigid forms of thought. One has largely been overthrown by science. The other is just a pseudo science.

Yourself isit · 28-01-2017 03:24PM

Boaty wrote: »

You did a nonsense "Arts with music degree" what do you expect. If people didn't get third level for free they would put more effort into choosing their career path rather than saying "Feck it I'm going to college it will be good craic"

He has a good point on how one generation has been shafted though.

andekwarhola · 28-01-2017 03:25PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe education should be free for all, indefinitely

Ironically, it's Arts type subjects /departments that usually suffer - and perhaps eventually dissappear - when universities are struggling financially.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 03:25PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Neither philosophy not economics are very rigid forms of thought. One has largely been overthrown by science. The other is just a pseudo science.

People like you really scare me and frankly are responsible for religion still being a thing :pac:

Yourself isit · 28-01-2017 03:40PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

People like you really scare me and frankly are responsible for religion still being a thing :pac:

How did you even begin to get anything remotely pro-religious from my comment? Can you read?

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 03:47PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

How did you even begin to get anything remotely pro-religious from my comment? Can you read?

Do you even lift bro?

People who believe that science alone can explain reason and regulate society cause people to run for the familiar cover of natural rights. A massive branch of natural rights is religion (unfortunately). You just have to have faith. The corollary view - everything can be boiled down to some form of calculus - is just as dangerous.

Bloody utilitarians! :pac:

Yourself isit · 28-01-2017 03:58PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Do you even lift bro?

People who believe that science alone can explain reason and regulate society cause people to run for the familiar cover of natural rights. A massive branch of natural rights is religion (unfortunately). You just have to have faith. The corollary view - everything can be boiled down to some form of calculus - is just as dangerous.

Bloody utilitarians! :pac:

Of course I never said anything like that. Probably I should have said that most philosophy is bunk rather than all. Ethics isn't a place for science.

But the idea that philosophy teaches clear thinking is disabused by reading most philosophy.

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 04:02PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

I'm 100% with you on reform of going for the craic, although there is something to be said for the college experience, in of itself. We get too caught up in academia for its own sake. I personally would love to see the option of someone going to mechanics or plumper school rather than forcing themselves into a 3rd rate computing degree because Aunty Flo reckons 'he's good with computers' because he spends all his time on his Xbox.

I'd also like to see the costs of delivering an education come down where possible. A student does not need to be on campus to receive an education in a subject like Literature in this day and age with live streaming and various organisations delivering content online such as the Khan Academy and the Open University. Disciplines like Medicine, Engineering and Science of course do require an amount of practical training but I see no reason why students can't read and work at home and only go to campus for assessments.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 04:04PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Of course I never said anything like that. Probably I should have said that most philosophy is bunk rather than all. Ethics isn't a place for science.

But the idea that philosophy teaches clear thinking is disabused by reading most philosophy.

Absolutely! It teaches broad and all encompassing thinking. That's the very point! Most of it's at least partially wrong and no one can ever know all of it. I believe even the most respected people in the scientific fields would agree that knowing you know bugger all is the starting point.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 04:07PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd also like to see the costs of delivering an education come down where possible. A student does not need to be on campus to receive an education in a subject like Literature in this day and age with live streaming and various organisations delivering content online such as the Khan Academy and the Open University. Disciplines like Medicine, Engineering and Science of course do require an amount of practical training but I see no reason why students can't read and work at home and only go to campus for assessments.

Many arts subjects require the socratic method or the appalling attempts education makes of it. I'd argue that we teach arts very badly as it is, limiting it to distance learning would only compound that.

That said distance learning certainly has it's place, for all subjects, and there's no reason we shouldn't be better at it. The OU is excellent in this regard.

Permabear · 28-01-2017 04:23PM

This post has been deleted.

artemis268 · 28-01-2017 04:25PM

Investing in student loans and higher education related resources in general are a far much better investment than pouring more money in other ventures like the dole for example. Unlike some other investments options, this one promotes social good and does more to promote upward economic mobility. Time to invest in the future generations and building a stronger knowledge based economy that is globally orientated. The state of the schools and universities here leave very much to be desired and thoroughly needs attention.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 04:27PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Oh I'm with you - I don't think fees would necessarily change that, but it goes back to needing a sea change in academia. Arts shouldn't be the 'well I can just sit in the back and keep my head down' option. This would have knock on effect, in my view anyway, of people thinking twice as to whether university really was for them at that stage in life.

Elemonator · 28-01-2017 04:41PM

Student here. I actually fully believe in this loans idea. It works in the UK but there is an expectation for free study here.

In the UK, you get a loan and you can pay it off over decades at a negligible rate of interest. I have relatives in the UK that are fresh out of college and got a good job, now payin 100 sterling back a month. The repayments only kick in once you earn over a certain amount. Here, you get grants of up to thousands of euro. It's also highly unfair, if you earn say 45,000 you don't pay for fees but if you earn a mere 1000e more then you are stuck with 3043e fees. I actually see incredible waste of it between students drinking and drugging themselves in the student accommodation plus I've seen people travel on the grant. A significant chunk of my old year group is in Budapest, Paris, London and Amsterdam and they are all the students who don't work and get a grant. Basically not using it for education as its purpose intended. Not saying all students waste their grant, there are some who really struggle on what little they get, but a zero interest loan would certainly be an incentive to spend your money wisely.

If anyone here has been keeping track of the news, the USI has actually been having marches over the implementation of loans. They claim students will be out of pocket up to 20,000e. Education should be free according to them but nothing is ever free, someone else is just footing the bill. I don't think 20,000e over what could be a few decades is that much and unfortunately that is the real world and nobody is going to give you a grant for your mortgage.

The Government would want to be careful though. I've noticed that free education is part of Sinn Fein's election manifesto and they are in the colleges making sure they capitalise on it. The student vote isn't a weak thing, I'd say a significant fraction of the student body are Sinn Fein voters (based on my own view anyway).

newacc2015 · 28-01-2017 05:16PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There is a greater push for a more US style education in Ireland. Irish lecturers are generally open to their classes being more interactive But you won't have too many 18 year olds confident to share their opinion with a lecture hall of 500. Colleges like UCD and Trinity were pushing for more tutorials, but the funding for them was harshly cut despite them generally being manned by PhD students. A lot of tutorials participation is graded in Ireland.

IMO there will be a massive divide in education in Ireland. Unis like UCD and TCD who can raise their own funding from masters courses and undergrad courses marketed towards questionable Governments like Saudi Arabia will continue to do well. They will continue to evolve to a more US style, interactive experience like you are describing. While ITs that lack the reputation to pull in outside funding will flatline and be like something out of the 1950s.

I remember going to the open day for UCD and the open day for DIT several years ago. UCD made it clear from day one that they were modern college and that you were expected to arrive from day one with a laptop. The Uni was wifi enabled and classes would rely heavily on the use of computers. DIT were so proud that they had so many computer rooms and that you would not have to get a laptop and it was not expected of you to buy. I think you can guess which third level institution is preparing its student better for the modern world.

topmanamillion · 28-01-2017 06:24PM

Boaty wrote: »

I can look at your previous posts also, you graduated in 2013 as a Nurse yet two years later you wanted to go to Australia and work as a truck driver on a mine.

And why should the taxpayer pay for people who go to third level for the craic and then not use their degree when they have one?

Its really jammed right up there isn't it?

Not that my career choices are any of your business but everyone enjoys having options.

If public employees aren't being provided with competitive salaries and working conditions comparative to countries like England, Australia and Canada, they will simply leave.

Also under your scheme there`s nothing stopping someone simply getting their degree and running off abroad.

This is a point you are missing in your bile and vitriol.

red ears · 28-01-2017 06:53PM

Elemonator wrote: »

Student here. I actually fully believe in this loans idea. It works in the UK but there is an expectation for free study here.

In the UK, you get a loan and you can pay it off over decades at a negligible rate of interest. I have relatives in the UK that are fresh out of college and got a good job, now payin 100 sterling back a month. The repayments only kick in once you earn over a certain amount. Here, you get grants of up to thousands of euro. It's also highly unfair, if you earn say 45,000 you don't pay for fees but if you earn a mere 1000e more then you are stuck with 3043e fees. I actually see incredible waste of it between students drinking and drugging themselves in the student accommodation plus I've seen people travel on the grant. A significant chunk of my old year group is in Budapest, Paris, London and Amsterdam and they are all the students who don't work and get a grant. Basically not using it for education as its purpose intended. Not saying all students waste their grant, there are some who really struggle on what little they get, but a zero interest loan would certainly be an incentive to spend your money wisely.

If anyone here has been keeping track of the news, the USI has actually been having marches over the implementation of loans. They claim students will be out of pocket up to 20,000e. Education should be free according to them but nothing is ever free, someone else is just footing the bill. I don't think 20,000e over what could be a few decades is that much and unfortunately that is the real world and nobody is going to give you a grant for your mortgage.

The Government would want to be careful though. I've noticed that free education is part of Sinn Fein's election manifesto and they are in the colleges making sure they capitalise on it. The student vote isn't a weak thing, I'd say a significant fraction of the student body are Sinn Fein voters (based on my own view anyway).

I agree and if they get a good job from their education they could be earning 10 or 20k a year more than they would be without the degree working a min wage job. They could pay of their loan after a year or 2 if they really wanted.

endacl · 28-01-2017 07:00PM

shane9689 wrote: »

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

You're implying a lack of struggle on the part of previous generations. I'm doing OK, but it wasn't handed to me. And yes. It was character building. Finally finished paying off an Msc last year. At 43.

And you'll be saying the same to whatever version of the whining millennial is when you hit 43. There's a myth that life was easy in the past, but isn't now. It was easier. Before that it was harder. Before that... As regards emigrating, don't let the door, etc...

scamalert · 28-01-2017 08:14PM

how about instead of funding colleges further to roll out dozens out students every year with chances of 0 to land a job in fields that require few per country to actually invest that money into companies that would benefit in getting grants and relief in providing necessary work skills,and employment upon completion of college.

Since students pick courses often not realizing demand and supply,others realize that field they chosen either takes them nowhere or they have no interest in it.But all face same situation once done with college they dont know where to actually turn,since they get the theory but have no experience,so is it not better to develop scheme that colleges would get money only to fund into companies that will provide training and employment,thus win in sectors where there is demand and supply shortage and end courses that demand only few people every year.

Since say simple IT java developer after 4yrs ,in theory wouldn't have issues finding 25k job,but multiply that by colleges and amount of students that graduate in the field it creates lack of experience,and chaos once its time to get job,but if actual courses would be combined with work experience and work guaranteed then going into debt wouldn't be massive issue knowing in few years time one would be working and most likely with paid off debt.

nice_guy80 · 28-01-2017 08:22PM

How can so many students afford cars while they are in college?
There's plenty of money out there

Students want freebies

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