Students want freebies

Boaty

I have a feeling the issue of the student loan scheme will pop up again soon.
Below is an article from the Independent.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/watch-thousands-of-students-march-in-dublin-to-protest-against-student-loans-scheme-35144040.html

It looks as if the proposed scheme is very fair with graduates only paying back the loan if they reach earnings of26000 a year.
Its evident from the quotes in the article that the protestors were students who are in receipt of grants, which can be in excess of 5000 per year. In my opinion the student loan scheme would not hinder performance if anything it would improve performance as the students will have enough money to pay for things due to the loan.

A family on a combined 50,000 euro a year don't get any grants, if they did not have the money for registration AIB are more than happy to provide them with a loan at 8.15% APR, which is astronomical. The proposed student loan scheme would allow this family and many more access to 0% APR students loans.

By giving these people grants we are setting them up for a life of freebies which the taxpayer have to fund. I estimate that the cost of giving out grants to student to be in excess of 250million a year, this could go along way to improve the lives of taxpayers thought better infrastructure etc.

DIT's students Union was complaining about how the new student hub at Grangegorman won't be sufficient due to lack of funds to build it, well if the other 50% of DIT students paid their fees rather than get a grant, the Government would be able to provide them with an extra 40 million a year.

Stravos Murphy

Is your estimate accurate?

shane9689

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

Boaty

shane9689 wrote: »

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

I'm a student myself, I just don't see why some members of society believe that they are entitled to everything for free, while middle income earners who don't have too much more money are expected to pay for everything.
The student loan scheme would take out any struggle, if you don't earn any more than 26000 you don't have to pay it back.

Grayson

Boaty wrote: »

I'm a student myself, I just don't see why some members of society believe that they are entitled to everything for free, while middle income earners who don't have too much more money are expected to pay for everything.
The student loan scheme would take out any struggle, if you don't earn any more than 26000 you don't have to pay it back.

The student grant system in this country has done more to increase the prosperity of this country than anything else. We have an educated population and that's a big part of why we have so much inward investment. Sure the tax rate helps but they wouldn't be here if we were all idiots.

darkpagandeath

Grayson wrote: »

The student grant system in this country has done more to increase the prosperity of this country than anything else. We have an educated population and that's a big part of why we have so much inward investment. Sure the tax rate helps but they wouldn't be here if we were all idiots.

India and china would have way higher educated populations. Tax is the only thing. Cant believe people are fooled by the old... were here because of the talent. Lets not forget we had a lot of those talented people on the dole. When companies saw an opportunity to use the crash to shed high paid labour.

Boaty

Grayson wrote: »

The student grant system in this country has done more to increase the prosperity of this country than anything else. We have an educated population and that's a big part of why we have so much inward investment. Sure the tax rate helps but they wouldn't be here if we were all idiots.

I don't agree with that at all, if anything the grant system to led to people thinking they are too good to do low skilled jobs meaning that some low paid jobs attract massive salaries such as Luas drivers, bus drivers etc.

darkpagandeath

Boaty wrote: »

I don't agree with that at all, if anything the grant system to led to people thinking they are too good to do low skilled jobs meaning that some low paid jobs attract massive salaries such as Luas drivers, bus drivers etc.

Remember when you me took a crap job till we got one we were qualified for after leaving college.

DEFTLEFTHAND

We were relatively off. My fees were paid by the State but no grants. My father paid for my accommodation and registration fees and gave me 100 quid a week. I also worked in a petrol station and would make another 130-150 on top of that.

After I finished my stint in college I began working in my Dad's business. I actually made out less per week for the first 3 months, the old dog was trying to test me.

Don't be a gob****e Michael as he would say.

Grayson

darkpagandeath wrote: »

India and china would have way higher educated populations. Tax is the only thing. Cant believe people are fooled by the old... were here because of the talent. Lets not forget we had a lot of those talented people on the dole. When companies saw an opportunity to use the crash to shed high paid labour.

India do not have as high per capita. Sure they have more but their population is a billion.

And yes, many companies have operations in India but strangely they don't base their European operations there. We're the choice for that. And yes they let people go sometimes. Pretty much every company in every country in the world does that. I've been let go twice so I'm aware of that but I also know that outside of silicon valley you won't find a larger collection of tech companies in the world.

We have one of the most highly educated populations in the world. IF we had the same number attending college in 2000 that we had in 1970 that never would have happened.

There's also the fact that education has been proven time and time again to be the single biggest indicator in social mobility.
The availability of third level education has been proven to benefit both the country economically and the population in pretty much every study ever done. This isn't a leftist idea it's pure fact.Removing or impeding access to it will result in greater social inequality and result in the country suffering economically.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

topmanamillion

On a thread about Apple being forced to pay tax in Ireland:

Boaty wrote: »

Even if these companies paid tax it would just go towards the failing state agencies ie HSE

Against multinationals paying tax because you reckon the government will squander it but you fully believe repaid college loans by students will be conscientiously reinvested in education?

On a thread about international vulture funds buying up Irish property:

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Seems quite here. Thought there would be the usual uproar.

Boaty wrote: »

That's because the people that are loud have free houses and this doesn't effect them

You also have a thread entitled "A party for the taxpayer", it`s full of too much vitriol to quote it all but here`s a few excerpts:

Boaty wrote: »

Drug users would be forced into rehabilitation centers which would almost be like prison.

Boaty wrote: »

Food for the long term unemployed would be provided for by a state food distribution company, buying in such bulk would mean massive economies of scale.

Bit of a chip on your shoulder, hey Boaty?;)

andekwarhola

shane9689 wrote: »

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

You're being asked to pay for a higher education that will no doubt increase your chances of having a career, not do hard labour in a gulag.

Wanderer78

More 'debt peonage'!

Boaty

topmanamillion wrote: »

Bit of a chip on your shoulder, hey Boaty?;)

I can look at your previous posts also, you graduated in 2013 as a Nurse yet two years later you wanted to go to Australia and work as a truck driver on a mine.

And why should the taxpayer pay for people who go to third level for the craic and then not use their degree when they have one?

Wanderer78

Boaty wrote:

And why should the taxpayer pay for people who go to third level for the craic and then not use their degree when they have one?

I don't use my degree for it's intended purposes, I study for the pure joy of learning, self development and I guess for what you call, 'the craic'. Am I wrong to do so?

KERSPLAT!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I don't use my degree for it's intended purposes, I study for the pure joy of learning, self development and I guess for what you call, 'the craic'. Am I wrong to do so?

I don't agree with the OP but if you're doing something "for the craic", you should pay for it yourself and not expect grants from the government.

Wanderer78

KERSPLAT! wrote:

I don't agree with the OP but if you're doing something "for the craic", you should pay for it yourself and both expect grants from the government.

Maybe we to define 'the Craic'! My previous post is my own definition

Boaty

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I don't agree with the OP

So your in favour of some families on 50,000 a year paying fees at 8.15% APR while another on 49,000 get it for free.
A student loan scheme would allow for 0% APR loans for every third level student.

If someone doesn't want to take out a loan for their education they shouldn't be going to third level in the first place. 1/6 first years drop out, it would be interesting to see what percentage of these people are in receipt of the grant.

Wanderer78

Boaty wrote: »

So your in favour of some families on 50,000 a year paying fees at 8.15% APR while another on 49,000 get it for free.
A student loan scheme would allow for 0% APR loans for every third level student.

If someone doesn't want to take out a loan for their education they shouldn't be going to third level in the first place.

maybe education should be free for all, indefinitely

_Kaiser_

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Maybe we to define 'the Craic'! My previous post is my own definition

I think the point is that if you are studying/getting qualifications for your own sense of fulfillment then that's great, but if there's no tangible return on that qualification to the State, then you shouldn't be getting funded by it through grants.

And let's not forget that the Government/State has no money of it's own. It's all from taxes on citizens, or foreign loans that those same citizens will pay for.

Wanderer78

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think the point is that if you are studying/getting qualifications for your own sense of fulfillment then that's great, but if there's no tangible return on that qualification to the State, then you shouldn't be getting funded by it through grants.

And let's not forget that the Government/State has no money of it's own. It's all from taxes on citizens, or foreign loans that those same citizens will pay for.

id argue, most if not all study is beneficial to society as a whole even if it doesnt show 'tangible return'(what the hell do all these terms actually mean???)

oh money creation, now theres an interesting topic;) strangely governments just like banks have the ability to 'print' money. errr umm your last statement is highly debated and controversial.

ancapailldorcha

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe education should be free for all, indefinitely

Who'll pay for teachers, resources, campuses, schools, etc?

Wanderer78

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who'll pay for teachers, resources, campuses, schools, etc?

we will

jamesbere

Any grant system or student loan system should be paid by performance levels. If you drop out before first year then it should be paid back.

Wanderer78

jamesbere wrote: »

Any grant system or student loan system should be paid by performance levels. If you drop out before first year then it should be paid back.

another 'production based' system, really??? why do so many students drop out in the first place?

jamesbere

Wanderer78 wrote: »

another 'production based' system, really??? why do so many students drop out in the first place?

How much money is wasted each year in giving grant money to students who have no interest in been there.

Wanderer78

jamesbere wrote: »

How much money is wasted each year in giving grant money to students who have no interest in been there.

is that the fault of the student or system?

Atoms for Peace

State funding is in need of serious reform, it should be looked as an investment. Therefore only courses offering a reward to the states investment should be funded.
Those availing of such funds should be held to specific targets to retain it.

Wanderer78

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

State funding is in need of serious reform, it should be looked as an investment. Therefore only courses offering a reward to the states investment should be funded.
Those availing of such funds should be held to specific targets to retain it.

what if most if not all study leads to 'positive return' for the state? we re still talking about 'target based systems', do these actually work?

steddyeddy

Boaty wrote: »

I'm a student myself, I just don't see why some members of society believe that they are entitled to everything for free, while middle income earners who don't have too much more money are expected to pay for everything.
The student loan scheme would take out any struggle, if you don't earn any more than 26000 you don't have to pay it back.

Middle or high earners also get free fees. Would you be happy to pay for the full cost of your education?

ancapailldorcha

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we will

Why exactly shouldn't those receiving the education pay for it?

Samuel T. Cogley

Student loans are completely unnecessary and discourage the poorest in society from going to University. It adds additional cost in bureaucracy to maintain when all you need to do is have tax brackets which tax higher (more skilled workers) more to pay for services, such as free third level education. Now the Irish system is far from perfect, the way you seem to pick a college and not a course seems madness to me, but coming from the English and Scottish system there is a lot Ireland gets right.

Fair enough if you pick a useless degree like Basket weaving or Law you're never likely to earn enough to repay in tax, but there is something to be said for diversity also.

Also (and I'll say this quietly so not to upset too many people) this Irish education system isn't actually that good, we don't have loads of tech firms here because we're uber at STEM (although neither are we the worst), we have them her as we're uber at tax avoidance and speak English. So just be a wee bit careful about throwing liberal art stones if you live a glass house.

Wanderer78

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why exactly shouldn't those receiving the education pay for it?

most actually do, both directly and indirectly

El_Duderino 09

Boaty wrote:

I'm a student myself, I just don't see why some members of society believe that they are entitled to everything for free, while middle income earners who don't have too much more money are expected to pay for everything. The student loan scheme would take out any struggle, if you don't earn any more than 26000 you don't have to pay it back.

Well presumably it's not so much free money as it is making sure that suitable students who's parents can't afford to send them to uni, can still go to uni.

It would be much worse for society if only rich people could go to uni and use that education to earn more than poor people. That's how you create ghettos with no way out. That is really harmful to society in the meduim-long term. The short term cost is that the taxpayer pays to fund the long term social mobility for hard working clever people.

That's what we want, right? Clever hard working people to rise to the top, stupid lazy people to fall to the bottom regardless of parents wealth. That's social mobility and we a pay lip service to it. So here's an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and give the government some credit if they invest in young people and do something for the future.

I have always felt that student loans were the way to go. There are many doing courses in Dublin and Cork when the same course could be done nearer to home in Clonmel, Thurles, etc. Those availing of the loans have nothing to fear if they get their heads down, get their qualifications and a job. The repayments would be very small and many might not have to borrow that much if they can live at home.

ancapailldorcha

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Student loans are completely unnecessary and discourage the poorest in society from going to University. It adds additional cost in bureaucracy to maintain when all you need to do is have tax brackets which tax higher (more skilled workers) more to pay for services, such as free third level education. Now the Irish system is far from perfect, the way you seem to pick a college and not a course seems madness to me, but coming from the English and Scottish system there is a lot Ireland gets right.

Except in the UK, the number of students going to University hit an all-time high after fees were increased.

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Fair enough if you pick a useless degree like Basket weaving or Law you're never likely to earn enough to repay in tax, but there is something to be said for diversity also.

What is the something to be said exactly?

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Also (and I'll say this quietly so not to upset too many people) this Irish education system isn't actually that good, we don't have loads of tech firms here because we're uber at STEM (although neither are we the worst), we have them her as we're uber at tax avoidance and speak English. So just be a wee bit careful about throwing liberal art stones if you live a glass house.

Exactly. Irish Universities simply aren't that good. Not bad but not world leading. Fees enable them to raise substantial capital for Research and Development as well as increasing the quality of their teaching.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

most actually do, both directly and indirectly

What does this even mean?

Wanderer78

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's what we want, right? Clever hard working people to rise to the top, stupid lazy people to fall to the bottom regardless of parents wealth. That's social mobility and we a pay lip service to it. So here's an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and give the government some credit if they invest in young people and do something for the future.

i have a different potentially more cynical view of this, i actually think the 'cream' isnt actually rising to the top and these ideas of 'laziness' are actually just a perception of.

Wanderer78

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What does this even mean?

you need to look at our taxation system holistically to see what im getting to. apologies, im busy here

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

I have always felt that student loans were the way to go. There are many doing courses in Dublin and Cork when the same course could be done nearer to home in Clonmel, Thurles, etc. Those availing of the loans have nothing to fear if they get their heads down, get their qualifications and a job. The repayments would be very small and many might not have to borrow that much if they can live at home.

totally disagree, mounting evidence that private debt is probably leading to the bulk of our global economic woes.

ancapailldorcha

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you need to look at our taxation system holistically to see what im getting to. apologies, im busy here

You're not explaining your point. You're just posting vague platitudes.

me_right_one

Hang on a minute everybody. Is there currently a 0% or low interest student loan system? Cos if there is, I want in!

Wanderer78

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're not explaining your point. You're just posting vague platitudes.

most citizens pay taxation in one form or another. really am busy here. thank you

Jawgap

Generally, I agree with the principle of a student loans as long as

....the income threshold that triggers the payback is reasonably high (a small margin above the average wage)

....payments are related to salary on an escalating scale

....there is a long stop of 15 years

....certain courses are free - maths, sciences, medicine etc

...credit is given for moving into careers like teaching and nursing.

The only real concern I'd have is that it would drive emigration? You borrow you get educated and then clear off to another jurisdiction where you can't be forced to pay the loan back!!

Wanderer78

Jawgap wrote: »

Generally, I agree with the principle of a student loans as long as

....the income threshold that triggers the payback is reasonably high (a small margin above the average wage)

....payments are related to salary on an escalating scale

....there is a long stop of 15 years

....certain courses are free - maths, sciences, medicine etc

...credit is given for moving into careers like teaching and nursing.

The only real concern I'd have is that it would drive emigration? You borrow you get educated and then clear off to another jurisdiction where you can't be forced to pay the loan back!!

what about the issues of rising private debt? who decides what areas of study are more beneficial to society as a whole than others and how?

Samuel T. Cogley

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Except in the UK, the number of students going to University hit an all-time high after fees were increased.

Admission standards tanked and Universities worried they would not get enough students. I think my offer from St. Andrew's was BBC and BCC from Edinburgh, no interview.

Both those universities are generally AAA and in some cases interview.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What is the something to be said exactly?

You wouldn't have to ask if you'd had a decent rounded education

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Exactly. Irish Universities simply aren't that good. Not bad but not world leading. Fees enable them to raise substantial capital for Research and Development as well as increasing the quality of their teaching.

Thank you for the chuckle. There's plenty of money available, we just don't get much of it. A sea change in academic attitudes in Ireland is what's required not fees. Anyone who's managed to get a research grant is likely to buy out their teaching hours at the first opportunity.

El_Duderino 09

Wanderer78 wrote:

i have a different potentially more cynical view of this, i actually think the 'cream' isnt actually rising to the top and these ideas of 'laziness' are actually just a perception of.

I do think we have perfect social mobility either. This idea of giving grants to poorer people is specifically designed to help with that.

Wanderer78

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I do think we have perfect social mobility either. This idea of giving grants to poorer people is specifically designed to help with that.

hmmm 'perfect' doesnt sit too well with me, no such thing really. what do you define as 'perfect'?

Jawgap

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what about the issues of rising private debt? who decides what areas of study are more beneficial to society as a whole than others and how?

The long stop and escalating payments deal with that - regardless of how much you have or haven't paid back, 15 years after graduation a line is drawn under it.

Likewise, payment linked to salary above a generous minimum means you're paying something back.

I'd also add that anyone failing or dropping out should be compelled to pay all the money back.

Imv, it would force students to consider whether college/university is really for them; encourage them to do courses with genuine career prospects (enough of these stupid media studies, gender studies etc being funded out of the public purse) - and it would make them value, in a very direct way, the third level education experience.

KERSPLAT!

I thought you were busy.

Wanderer78

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I thought you were busy.

i am, also struggle to formulate my thoughts into text unfortunately