Students want freebies

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 12:51PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we will

Why exactly shouldn't those receiving the education pay for it?

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 12:52PM

Student loans are completely unnecessary and discourage the poorest in society from going to University. It adds additional cost in bureaucracy to maintain when all you need to do is have tax brackets which tax higher (more skilled workers) more to pay for services, such as free third level education. Now the Irish system is far from perfect, the way you seem to pick a college and not a course seems madness to me, but coming from the English and Scottish system there is a lot Ireland gets right.

Fair enough if you pick a useless degree like Basket weaving or Law you're never likely to earn enough to repay in tax, but there is something to be said for diversity also.

Also (and I'll say this quietly so not to upset too many people) this Irish education system isn't actually that good, we don't have loads of tech firms here because we're uber at STEM (although neither are we the worst), we have them her as we're uber at tax avoidance and speak English. So just be a wee bit careful about throwing liberal art stones if you live a glass house.

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 12:52PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why exactly shouldn't those receiving the education pay for it?

most actually do, both directly and indirectly

El_Duderino 09 · 28-01-2017 12:56PM

Boaty wrote:

I'm a student myself, I just don't see why some members of society believe that they are entitled to everything for free, while middle income earners who don't have too much more money are expected to pay for everything. The student loan scheme would take out any struggle, if you don't earn any more than 26000 you don't have to pay it back.

Well presumably it's not so much free money as it is making sure that suitable students who's parents can't afford to send them to uni, can still go to uni.

It would be much worse for society if only rich people could go to uni and use that education to earn more than poor people. That's how you create ghettos with no way out. That is really harmful to society in the meduim-long term. The short term cost is that the taxpayer pays to fund the long term social mobility for hard working clever people.

That's what we want, right? Clever hard working people to rise to the top, stupid lazy people to fall to the bottom regardless of parents wealth. That's social mobility and we a pay lip service to it. So here's an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and give the government some credit if they invest in young people and do something for the future.

28-01-2017 12:58PM

I have always felt that student loans were the way to go. There are many doing courses in Dublin and Cork when the same course could be done nearer to home in Clonmel, Thurles, etc. Those availing of the loans have nothing to fear if they get their heads down, get their qualifications and a job. The repayments would be very small and many might not have to borrow that much if they can live at home.

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 12:59PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Student loans are completely unnecessary and discourage the poorest in society from going to University. It adds additional cost in bureaucracy to maintain when all you need to do is have tax brackets which tax higher (more skilled workers) more to pay for services, such as free third level education. Now the Irish system is far from perfect, the way you seem to pick a college and not a course seems madness to me, but coming from the English and Scottish system there is a lot Ireland gets right.

Except in the UK, the number of students going to University hit an all-time high after fees were increased.

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Fair enough if you pick a useless degree like Basket weaving or Law you're never likely to earn enough to repay in tax, but there is something to be said for diversity also.

What is the something to be said exactly?

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Also (and I'll say this quietly so not to upset too many people) this Irish education system isn't actually that good, we don't have loads of tech firms here because we're uber at STEM (although neither are we the worst), we have them her as we're uber at tax avoidance and speak English. So just be a wee bit careful about throwing liberal art stones if you live a glass house.

Exactly. Irish Universities simply aren't that good. Not bad but not world leading. Fees enable them to raise substantial capital for Research and Development as well as increasing the quality of their teaching.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

most actually do, both directly and indirectly

What does this even mean?

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's what we want, right? Clever hard working people to rise to the top, stupid lazy people to fall to the bottom regardless of parents wealth. That's social mobility and we a pay lip service to it. So here's an opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and give the government some credit if they invest in young people and do something for the future.

i have a different potentially more cynical view of this, i actually think the 'cream' isnt actually rising to the top and these ideas of 'laziness' are actually just a perception of.

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:01PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What does this even mean?

you need to look at our taxation system holistically to see what im getting to. apologies, im busy here

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have always felt that student loans were the way to go. There are many doing courses in Dublin and Cork when the same course could be done nearer to home in Clonmel, Thurles, etc. Those availing of the loans have nothing to fear if they get their heads down, get their qualifications and a job. The repayments would be very small and many might not have to borrow that much if they can live at home.

totally disagree, mounting evidence that private debt is probably leading to the bulk of our global economic woes.

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 01:03PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you need to look at our taxation system holistically to see what im getting to. apologies, im busy here

You're not explaining your point. You're just posting vague platitudes.

me_right_one · 28-01-2017 01:03PM

Hang on a minute everybody. Is there currently a 0% or low interest student loan system? Cos if there is, I want in!

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:04PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're not explaining your point. You're just posting vague platitudes.

most citizens pay taxation in one form or another. really am busy here. thank you

Jawgap · 28-01-2017 01:16PM

Generally, I agree with the principle of a student loans as long as

....the income threshold that triggers the payback is reasonably high (a small margin above the average wage)

....payments are related to salary on an escalating scale

....there is a long stop of 15 years

....certain courses are free - maths, sciences, medicine etc

...credit is given for moving into careers like teaching and nursing.

The only real concern I'd have is that it would drive emigration? You borrow you get educated and then clear off to another jurisdiction where you can't be forced to pay the loan back!!

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:17PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Generally, I agree with the principle of a student loans as long as

....the income threshold that triggers the payback is reasonably high (a small margin above the average wage)

....payments are related to salary on an escalating scale

....there is a long stop of 15 years

....certain courses are free - maths, sciences, medicine etc

...credit is given for moving into careers like teaching and nursing.

The only real concern I'd have is that it would drive emigration? You borrow you get educated and then clear off to another jurisdiction where you can't be forced to pay the loan back!!

what about the issues of rising private debt? who decides what areas of study are more beneficial to society as a whole than others and how?

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 01:18PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Except in the UK, the number of students going to University hit an all-time high after fees were increased.

Admission standards tanked and Universities worried they would not get enough students. I think my offer from St. Andrew's was BBC and BCC from Edinburgh, no interview.

Both those universities are generally AAA and in some cases interview.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What is the something to be said exactly?

You wouldn't have to ask if you'd had a decent rounded education

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Exactly. Irish Universities simply aren't that good. Not bad but not world leading. Fees enable them to raise substantial capital for Research and Development as well as increasing the quality of their teaching.

Thank you for the chuckle. There's plenty of money available, we just don't get much of it. A sea change in academic attitudes in Ireland is what's required not fees. Anyone who's managed to get a research grant is likely to buy out their teaching hours at the first opportunity.

El_Duderino 09 · 28-01-2017 01:20PM

Wanderer78 wrote:

i have a different potentially more cynical view of this, i actually think the 'cream' isnt actually rising to the top and these ideas of 'laziness' are actually just a perception of.

I do think we have perfect social mobility either. This idea of giving grants to poorer people is specifically designed to help with that.

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:21PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I do think we have perfect social mobility either. This idea of giving grants to poorer people is specifically designed to help with that.

hmmm 'perfect' doesnt sit too well with me, no such thing really. what do you define as 'perfect'?

Jawgap · 28-01-2017 01:22PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what about the issues of rising private debt? who decides what areas of study are more beneficial to society as a whole than others and how?

The long stop and escalating payments deal with that - regardless of how much you have or haven't paid back, 15 years after graduation a line is drawn under it.

Likewise, payment linked to salary above a generous minimum means you're paying something back.

I'd also add that anyone failing or dropping out should be compelled to pay all the money back.

Imv, it would force students to consider whether college/university is really for them; encourage them to do courses with genuine career prospects (enough of these stupid media studies, gender studies etc being funded out of the public purse) - and it would make them value, in a very direct way, the third level education experience.

KERSPLAT! · 28-01-2017 01:22PM

I thought you were busy.

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2017 01:23PM

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I thought you were busy.

i am, also struggle to formulate my thoughts into text unfortunately

Dempsey · 28-01-2017 01:25PM

shane9689 wrote: »

aaaaand this is why im emigrating. No mercy on the youth in this country. Its all "I've made it already , so you'll just have to struggle, sure it will be good for ya...the mounting debt and lack of opportunities... its character building"

More mercy in this country than going to a new country where you have no social safety net. It will definitely be sink or swim time then.

I think one of the problems these days is with social media all you see on it is when people are out enjoying themselves, buying new stuff, travelling etc but you dont see the hard work and the financial struggle that goes on behind it to get to that point.

As for the lack of opportunities, i'd say its more the case of why arent you standing out to potential employers. If you dont stand out from the crowd, then what do you expect? Its going to be the same anywhere you go unless you are relying on someone you know for a start.

28-01-2017 01:54PM

Emigration will just increase if you start paying it back at 26k.. So many would just work somewhere else and forget about it.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Emigration will just increase if you start paying it back at 26k.. So many would just work somewhere else and forget about it.

:looks shifty as he stares back to his portrait of the Queen, sips his tea and ponders the Student loan he got in 1999 that he's paying back at £1 a month because he lives in Ireland now:

AnGaelach · 28-01-2017 02:03PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

India and china would have way higher educated populations.

And Mars has non-existent tax... Is there a reason you're picking random examples? A country doesn't headquarter in Ireland to break into the Chinese market, just like a country wouldn't headquarter in China to break into the European market...

newacc2015 · 28-01-2017 02:09PM

First thing to note while the Government gives money to third level institutions, the likes of UCD and Trinity raise a majority of their own income from EU grants, research for private companies, charging a small fortune to foreign students, expensive masters etc. There is this notion that the state pays for the entire cost of students education in Ireland,when in fact it is a small subsidy.

Not all courses are the same. Pilling 500 economics or english students into a lecture hall in UCD, giving an assignment or two and then a final exam is a fraction of the cost of a medicine course. Some courses like medicine and veterinary cost 6-8 times the cost of some arts courses.

The fact is removing free fees didn't help working class families go to college. It only made it free for middle class families to go. I would be in favour of college fees, but structure it properly. If you study medicine at the cost of well over €100k to the taxpayer here. If you agree to work in the public hospitals in Ireland for 5-8 years after graduation, forgive the loan. Do the same for people working in schools, public sector, gardai etc. Let people go to college for free is the state will benefit from it.

Charging an Irish student the same price for an arts degree and a medicine degree is illogical, in which the medical student does their placement here for a few years and ****s off to Canada or the UK never to be seen again is a massive issue.

28-01-2017 02:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Emigration will just increase if you start paying it back at 26k.. So many would just work somewhere else and forget about it.

I very much doubt they would get away with not repaying. Other countries have a loan system and they have to keep up repayments when they leave the country. Not repaying would have an adverse effect on their credit ratings.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 02:10PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

:looks shifty as he stares back to his portrait of the Queen, sips his tea and ponders the Student loan he got in 1999 that he's paying back at £1 a month because he lives in Ireland now:

Deleted User wrote: »

I very much doubt they would get away with not repaying. Other countries have a loan system and they have to keep up repayments when they leave the country. Not repaying would have an adverse effect on their credit ratings.

Nope.

Took them 16 years to find me, two mortgages and several credit cards later.

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 02:26PM

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Admission standards tanked and Universities worried they would not get enough students. I think my offer from St. Andrew's was BBC and BCC from Edinburgh, no interview.

Both those universities are generally AAA and in some cases interview.

The UK has some of the finest Universities in the world. That hasn't changed.

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

You wouldn't have to ask if you'd had a decent rounded education

Irish public sector so I didn't. I got forced Irish lessons instead.

Libertarian Kant wrote: »

Thank you for the chuckle. There's plenty of money available, we just don't get much of it. A sea change in academic attitudes in Ireland is what's required not fees. Anyone who's managed to get a research grant is likely to buy out their teaching hours at the first opportunity.

Likewise. I'm sure the Unions and the public sector will start putting the country first any day now.

Permabear · 28-01-2017 02:47PM

This post has been deleted.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-01-2017 02:55PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The UK has some of the finest Universities in the world. That hasn't changed.

I'm not sure what your point is there though? So do France and Germany. Might it be that fees actually don't make much difference?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Irish public sector so I didn't. I got forced Irish lessons instead.

Indeed, and although my comment was glib I was making a serious point. I wasn't taught philosophy in school either being a product of the English and Scottish systems. It's a great shame and one that would result in more thought going into discussions like this one, that many people have and which inform our voting choices.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Likewise. I'm sure the Unions and the public sector will start putting the country first any day now.

One wouldn't really expect unions to, but academics who have a privileged position (in my opinion given workloads vs pay) have a duty to ensure they are putting forward the best possible proposals for research funding and providing the best possible teaching to students. In my experience they, in the main, do not despite very reasonable remuneration.

Students want freebies

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