Shannon flooding action?

macraignil · 15-12-2016 7:34pm #1

I'm not living near the Shannon but flooding there has been a major problem for a number of years. I can see some stories of local councils doing some work to provide limited protection measures in their local area. The problem of flooding of the river is a far bigger issue than local councils can solve individually but from what I can see there is no national political movement to do anything about it. Has anyone heard of any action on this issue at a national level or know why it seems nobody wants to do anything at the scale required to solve the flooding problem?

Shannon757 · 15-12-2016 7:35pm

I've no plans

recedite · 15-12-2016 9:52pm

There's talk of dredging it. They dredged smaller tributaries which increased the flow in those. Thereby causing sediment to remain in suspension until the water reached the main river, before depositing there and silting it up.

The main flooding problem is caused by the ESB though, because they control the water levels. They hold back the water at dams, only releasing it when levels get really high. So they release the water in the middle of a torrential downpour, at just the wrong time.
Why? Because they don't want to leave themselves short of water for the hydro plant at Ardnacrusha, which gets priority over all other interests. And fair play to the people who originally built Ardnacrusha; they were real visionaries, ahead of their time.

The other unknown factor is the future taking of water from the Shannon to supply Dublin. Currently a lot of Dublin's water comes from Wicklow, but I've noticed that water levels in Wicklow this year have been the lowest ever, right into December, which is unheard of. Except that it was predicted years ago that the east coast would get drier and the west coast would get wetter as a result of global warming.

If we had a functioning national water authority, and the jackeens were willing to pay for their water, we'd have the funds and the willpower to take excess water from the Shannon and send it to Dublin. That water authority would then take control from the ESB for managing water levels in the Shannon.
But instead we have gombeen politicians in power. So I expect to see more flooding in Limerick next year, and water shortages in Dublin. And then plenty of hand wringing and "sure nobody can predict these things, how were we to know this would happen?"

macraignil · 18-12-2016 9:13pm

recedite wrote: »

The other unknown factor is the future taking of water from the Shannon to supply Dublin. Currently a lot of Dublin's water comes from Wicklow, but I've noticed that water levels in Wicklow this year have been the lowest ever, right into December, which is unheard of. Except that it was predicted years ago that the east coast would get drier and the west coast would get wetter as a result of global warming.

If we had a functioning national water authority, and the jackeens were willing to pay for their water, we'd have the funds and the willpower to take excess water from the Shannon and send it to Dublin. That water authority would then take control from the ESB for managing water levels in the Shannon.
But instead we have gombeen politicians in power. So I expect to see more flooding in Limerick next year, and water shortages in Dublin. And then plenty of hand wringing and "sure nobody can predict these things, how were we to know this would happen?"

I saw a report in the RTE news a few weeks back saying that Irish Water had plans to pipe water from the Shannon to the Dublin water supply. Not going to be done this year from what they were saying.

recedite · 19-12-2016 11:06am

macraignil wrote: »

I saw a report in the RTE news a few weeks back saying that Irish Water had plans to pipe water from the Shannon to the Dublin water supply. Not going to be done this year from what they were saying.

Its been talked about for years, but with IW in a shambolic state, bereft of funding, its not going to progress in the near future.
Currently the water levels in the Vartry reservoir are so low they are at a level that you would only have seen during a rare midsummer drought in the 1980's and 1990's.

IW now plannning in desperation to choke off the Vartry river almost entirely, as it exits the reservoir, which will be cheap and easy, but will be an environmental disaster. Even that will only get them a few extra few litres; not enough in the overall scheme of things, because its only a small river as it is.

Lt Dan · 20-12-2016 4:34pm

macraignil wrote: »

I'm not living near the Shannon but flooding there has been a major problem for a number of years. I can see some stories of local councils doing some work to provide limited protection measures in their local area. The problem of flooding of the river is a far bigger issue than local councils can solve individually but from what I can see there is no national political movement to do anything about it. Has anyone heard of any action on this issue at a national level or know why it seems nobody wants to do anything at the scale required to solve the flooding problem?

There has been talk of dredging the river beds. I know on TD, in Westmeath, who basically got elected on that ground (did trojan work last Nov - December) got some funding for the Athlone Region - which was almost washed out in both 2009 and 2015.

http://www.thejournal.ie/river-shannon-dredge-3131468-Dec2016/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/shannon-community-responds-to-plans-to-dredge-the-river-1.2901917

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shannon-set-for-dredging-to-prevent-further-floods-35283098.html

Not sure whether it is due to the lack of rain, but the river South of Athlone is at possibly an all time low for the winter. None of the meadows have been flooded and the weir wall is still dry. I personally have never seen that before.

macraignil · 04-01-2017 7:44pm

Lt Dan wrote: »

There has been talk of dredging the river beds.

Not sure whether it is due to the lack of rain, but the river South of Athlone is at possibly an all time low for the winter. None of the meadows have been flooded and the weir wall is still dry. I personally have never seen that before.

It has been a relatively dry winter this year so that might be the explanation. At the time of the most recent Shannon floods RTE did an article on the Dutch solution to river flooding at Nijmegen. They had built an extra channel for the river to flow through so it can reach the sea faster and not build up into a problem when there is a risk of flooding. Would such a system be applicable to the Shannon? Would a year with comparatively low rainfall be a good time to start a project like this?

Could an overflow channel from near the site of the ESB dam go straight to the sea with flood water when required and bypass the older river channel which has silted up (possibly to some extent because of the diversion of the water for the power station)? Should there be more of a national solution to the flooding problem since the entire country is said to have benefited from the rural electric scheme that was started with the power from the Shannon hydro electric station?

recedite · 04-01-2017 8:42pm

macraignil wrote: »

Could an overflow channel from near the site of the ESB dam go straight to the sea with flood water when required and bypass the older river channel ..

Seems like a good idea to me, for use in times of emergency. Especially if combined with a third option in routine use; to send water east to Dublin.
Certainly a lot better than the current high water choice at Parteen Weir; to flood Limerick, or not to flood Limerick.

Now would be a good time to start alright, with water levels so low. But who knows, with climate change we could see more droughts than we are used to.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2017 1:02pm

recedite wrote: »

Its been talked about for years, but with IW in a shambolic state, bereft of funding, its not going to progress in the near future.

I think it was quite a well developed plan (originally Dublin City Council, rather than Irish Water proposing it) but I thought there was a lot of opposition to it?

Fear seemed to be that Dublin (suppose "the East" would be more correct) will steal too much water and drastically lower the river [although that doesn't seem much of a threat right now given regular flooding + suggestions to dredge the Shannon so as to get rid of water faster!]

ThisRegard · 08-01-2017 1:14pm

recedite wrote: »

, and the jackeens were willing to pay for their water,

Maybe just charge everyone from outside Dublin but living there who put the additional strain on Dublin's supply?

Seriously though, this argument always gets trotted out, you'd think that Dublin was populated only by people born and bred there.

recedite · 08-01-2017 1:24pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think it was quite a well developed plan (originally Dublin City Council, rather than Irish Water proposing it) but I thought there was a lot of opposition to it?

Probably more a case of local politicians wanting some money from it. Nobody likes to see local resources being taken away while they get nothing. Shell to Sea campaign was a good example of that.
To be fair about it, there would be a good ethical case for Dublin end users of the water to pay for it, and some of that money going towards compensating flood victims along the Shannon.

A peculiar historical anomaly raised its head recently in the east too. Dublin City were given ownership of the waterworks at Varty (Roundwood lakes etc..) which feeds the SE Dublin area. This occurred a long time ago, despite it being in the Wicklow Co Co area. In return for access to the water, Dublin supplied fully treated water to towns along the way, such as Bray and Greystones. That has saved Wicklow county councils a lot of money over the years, because Dublin was paying for the water treatment. But when meters were installed recently, some people in these towns started saying that Irish Water should pay WCC a fee for the extracted water, which would then go to subsidise their water charges. It all died down when the whole water charge thing collapsed.

I wouldn't have much sympathy for that argument myself, as I see water management as a national issue, and the resource as a national one.
But the flip side of that view is that flood relief should be better managed by the same national authority.

Sam Russell · 08-01-2017 10:22pm

Why not build a canal or some such from Portumna to Kinvara and drain the Shannon into Galway Bay - distance of about 45 km and some existing rivers could be used to take some of the water.

The resulting canal could be a tourist asset.

A2LUE42 · 08-01-2017 10:28pm

Great summary of the Shannon scheme and the flooding issues here

John_Rambo · 09-01-2017 12:43am

There was a fairly ambitious plan to take water away from the Shannon ONLY during winter months when areas were affected by flooding to a new reservoir in Portarlington where it would be stored for use in the midlands and in the East of the country.

Most of the required environmental studies on the site, which is a former bog owned by Bord na Mona, had already been completed and it would have encouraged water-dependent industries like the pharmaceutical sector to locate in the midlands along with purpose build water sports tourist destination in Laois.

It would have been one of the biggest infrastructural projects ever undertaken by the State and could have been the answer to two problems.

1 - No more winter flooding for Shannon based homes and businesses.
2 - No more water shortages in the East and East midlands.

It would have created massive employment for the build and permanent employment for hundreds of locals.

Unfortunately it was severely opposed by short sighted, begrudging and selfish local groups, chiefly the River Shannon Protection Alliance.

recedite · 09-01-2017 3:48pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Unfortunately it was severely opposed by short sighted, begrudging and selfish local groups, chiefly the River Shannon Protection Alliance.

This is why we need a no-nonsense national authority in charge of both drinking water supply and managing the water levels.
If anyone gets in the way, CPO their land.

macraignil · 10-01-2017 9:39pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

There was a fairly ambitious plan to take water away from the Shannon ONLY during winter months when areas were affected by flooding to a new reservoir in Portarlington where it would be stored for use in the midlands and in the East of the country.

Most of the required environmental studies on the site, which is a former bog owned by Bord na Mona, had already been completed and it would have encouraged water-dependent industries like the pharmaceutical sector to locate in the midlands along with purpose build water sports tourist destination in Laois.

It would have been one of the biggest infrastructural projects ever undertaken by the State and could have been the answer to two problems.

1 - No more winter flooding for Shannon based homes and businesses.
2 - No more water shortages in the East and East midlands.

It would have created massive employment for the build and permanent employment for hundreds of locals.

Unfortunately it was severely opposed by short sighted, begrudging and selfish local groups, chiefly the River Shannon Protection Alliance.

Sounds interesting.

How big an area was going to be flooded?

Was all the land to be flooded owned by Bord na Mona?

macraignil · 15-01-2017 1:53pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not build a canal or some such from Portumna to Kinvara and drain the Shannon into Galway Bay - distance of about 45 km and some existing rivers could be used to take some of the water.

The resulting canal could be a tourist asset.

45km of new canal might be a more expensive option to construct. It would be a nice tourist attraction but I think cheaper options might need to be considered.

Looking at the area near the Shannon that might allow a shorter "overflow" channel to take away flood water it looks to me like there could be potential for using an existing water channel that flows from just south of Meelick church. There is just about 3km from this channel (that goes to the sea) to the main Shannon river near Parteen. It probably would need a bit of dredging of the existing channel to allow for the extra water but even a shorter stretch of canal could be engineered to be a nice amenity and recreation facility. Maybe the ESB could take on the costs of developing a short channel such as this if local support/cooperation could be found.

Rightwing · 15-01-2017 2:27pm

Taking water from the Shannon is flawed. EU should block this.

Sam Russell · 15-01-2017 11:48pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Taking water from the Shannon is flawed. EU should block this.

You mean that the Shannon should flood every year?

Rightwing · 15-01-2017 11:59pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

You mean that the Shannon should flood every year?

I haven't seen any flooding this year, have you ?

elperello · 15-01-2017 11:59pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

You mean that the Shannon should flood every year?

The Shannon probably will always flood.It's due to it being a very slow moving river that drains one fifth of the country.

What is being proposed at the moment is a series of photo opportunities for the sake of politicians who need to look as if they are doing something.

A bit of tree clearance on banks here, a few diggers there, spend (waste) a few million and hope that gets them through the next electoral cycle.

Ironically the water level on the Shannon is unusually low this Winter due to low rainfall.

John_Rambo · 16-01-2017 12:02am

elperello wrote: »

The Shannon probably will always flood.It's due to it being a very slow moving river that drains one fifth of the country

Good point. A cut off to a reservoir in Portarlington in peak flood seasons wouldn't harm the river, but would probably reduce the flooding.

Rightwing wrote: »

I haven't seen any flooding this year, have you ?

Not this year, but it does flood and peoples homes are destroyed. One swallow doesn't make a summer.

recedite · 16-01-2017 12:21am

Whats the bets on water rationing in Dublin this summer?
Still a few months to go, mind.

Sam Russell · 16-01-2017 10:22am

Rightwing wrote: »

I haven't seen any flooding this year, have you ?

Yet.

The flooding last year cost an enormous amount, and a lot more than the remedial work to prevent it. The Shannon is an enormous river that drains a fifth of the country, and will always be a threat. Draining bogs will remove the flood plains that helped to alleviate/remove that threat.

Politicians have been getting elected on promises to drain the Shannon for nearly a century.

Rightwing · 16-01-2017 11:02am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yet.

The flooding last year cost an enormous amount, and a lot more than the remedial work to prevent it. The Shannon is an enormous river that drains a fifth of the country, and will always be a threat. Draining bogs will remove the flood plains that helped to alleviate/remove that threat.

Politicians have been getting elected on promises to drain the Shannon for nearly a century.

The above poster is correct, it's a slow moving river. Farmers need to be able to deal with this.

macraignil · 24-01-2017 7:55pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Good point. A cut off to a reservoir in Portarlington in peak flood seasons wouldn't harm the river, but would probably reduce the flooding.

Not sure a reservoir at Portarlington is being seriously considered. If it is Bord na Mona own the land, are they more likely to find an easier to manage use for the area rather than take on the role of supplying water?

I think an improved exit channel to the sea could be a lot cheaper to build and get a positive return to the state in avoiding flood damage

A2LUE42 · 24-01-2017 9:38pm

There is a perfectly good exit channel to the sea using the original rivers course. It would just need to be cleared and properly maintained.

macraignil · 26-01-2017 8:00pm

A2LUE42 wrote: »

There is a perfectly good exit channel to the sea using the original rivers course. It would just need to be cleared and properly maintained.

That's true, but it might be an easier job to make a short new channel for times of flooding than clear a longer stretch of the original river course.

recedite · 08-05-2017 11:27pm

Apart from a wet period in March - early April nearly every month since last summer has had a small fraction of the usual rainfall on the east coast.

I noticed people using hosepipes in their gardens last weekend; its very early in the year for that lark. But shur its free, and "its a human right" so why not :pac:

Although rain is due later this week, the pattern seems to be a few rainy days, followed by a few dry weeks. So given that the ground is already fairly dry, water shortages in Dublin are looking quite likely for later in the summer, unless the weather patterns change.
It seems to be all down to a lot of persistent north and easterly winds, which is not our usual thing in Ireland.

blanch152 · 09-05-2017 10:11am

recedite wrote: »

Apart from a wet period in March - early April nearly every month since last summer has had a small fraction of the usual rainfall on the east coast.

I noticed people using hosepipes in their gardens last weekend; its very early in the year for that lark. But shur its free, and "its a human right" so why not :pac:

Although rain is due later this week, the pattern seems to be a few rainy days, followed by a few dry weeks. So given that the ground is already fairly dry, water shortages in Dublin are looking quite likely for later in the summer, unless the weather patterns change.
It seems to be all down to a lot of persistent north and easterly winds, which is not our usual thing in Ireland.

I have to agree with you.

It will be interesting in the context of the water charges debate to see whether rationing is required in Dublin this year.

I noticed yesterday that the Liffey was already quite low.

recedite · 09-05-2017 10:45pm

Forest fires as well. Just shows that even in the whest the ground must be bone dry, and we're only at the start of the summer.

The politicians still seeing water as a limitless commodity though. Like Nero, playing the fiddle. Until the capital city actually runs dry, and then they will run around like headless chickens.

Shannon flooding action?

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