Stupid ABS ...I demand an off switch

peasant · 12-01-2017 8:46pm #1

Holy sh*t! All of 3 hailstones on the road and my car will not stop !

So ...first "snow" of the year, first "snow" in the new (to me) car...go to the big parking lot where there is some untouched "snow" left ant try out how this car reacts when it gets slippy.

First let me say ...it's on brand new Nankang summer tyres (obviously not chosen by me but stuck on by the dealer without asking me and before I bought it) which are - surprisingly- quite good on dry and wet roads but by just looking at them you'd know they won't be up to much in snow.

So anyhow ..here I am on "snow" ...actually just a freshly put down layer of hailstones, not frozen, just a tad slippy ...more mush than anything really.

Put the shoe down and ..yees, four wheel drive works. Massive wheelspin in 2WD, hardly any traction at all, but very convincing forward motion in 4WD ...so far so good.

Now for the braking:
Holy mother of inertia ...there's no stopping at all ..nothing, nada. The brake pedal is doing a high speed samba underfoot, the noises out of the ABS unit are mimicking a barrage of machine guns at the Somme...but the car just keeps on going. A speed of 20 - 30 km/h equals a stopping distance of 20 - 30 m...thank feck the parking lot was empty :eek:

So I need to get out to check the surface ...there must be black ice under that mushy hail mess ...surely.
Nope...perfectly grippy asphalt under a layer of not even 1 cm of hailstones.

An old jaloppy without ABS would slip for less than a blink of an eye and then just
stop. like that. just stop.

Yet my modern car with ABS, ESP, auto 4wd, hill start assist, hill descent control etc, etc has the stopping distance of an oil tanker :rolleyes:

Please please ...all you car manufacturers and safety gurus ...pleeeeease give us ABS that can be switched off.

Would not want to think about what it would be like to have to drive my yoke in town traffic on a snow covered road ...I think I'd rather walk

EDIT

Ohh ..and I forgot ...the ESP does indeed have an off switch ...why not the ABS, hmm?

Special Circumstances · 12-01-2017 9:19pm

Last I remember you had a synchro or am I misremembering? Been way too long since I've seen a post from you!

If it isn't too modern surely there is a fuse you could pull without disabling half the other systems or putting it in limp mode?

oppenheimer1 · 12-01-2017 9:20pm

It's not the ABS that prevented the car from stopping. It's the shite tyres.

peasant · 12-01-2017 9:37pm

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Last I remember you had a synchro or am I misremembering? Been way too long since I've seen a post from you!

If it isn't too modern surely there is a fuse you could pull without disabling half the other systems or putting it in limp mode?

Don't get me wrong...I quite like ABS, in almost all situations

I'd still like an off-switch though...for those "other" scenarios....like today

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's not the ABS that prevented the car from stopping. It's the shite tyres.

Agreed...the tyres are crap on snow...having said that, without ABS even the crap tyres would have been able to dig down to asphalt in no time an stopped

Allinall · 12-01-2017 9:37pm

Switching off ABS definitely won't make your car stop any quicker, or in a shorter distance.

punisher5112 · 12-01-2017 9:38pm

Back in 10 when we had the proper bad conditions the abs kicked in released the brakes and had to put car away off to other side of road to avoid going straight through a junction and the 2 cars stopped at lights.

It can be great but under them conditions was actually a hinder.

peasant · 12-01-2017 9:46pm

Allinall wrote: »

Switching off ABS definitely won't make your car stop any quicker, or in a shorter distance.

not true

This is a motorbike on gravel instead of a car on snow...but the principle stays the same. On extremely slippery surfaces where there is a soft top layer on top of a hard underground (be that gravel on hard packed earth or hailstones on asphalt) braking is much quicker without ABS

btw... this bike does have a an off-switch:D
(for exactly that reason as it is a gravel road bike)

the bike brakes three times: 1) with ABS 2) w/o ABS rear brake only 3) w/o ABS both front and rear brake

Supergurrier · 12-01-2017 9:53pm

Nankangs in snow and you want esp and abs off ?

Braver than me OP

Leonard Hofstadter · 12-01-2017 10:24pm

In the olden days Audi used to allow you switch off the ABS if the car had it for exactly the scenarios the OP has described. Definitely the early 90s ones had it.

Special Circumstances · 12-01-2017 10:26pm

Allinall wrote: »

Switching off ABS definitely won't make your car stop any quicker, or in a shorter distance.

Incorrect.

Sitec · 12-01-2017 10:27pm

Good rule of thumb is .. The softer the surface the softer you press the brake. If you mash on the brakes without ABS you just under-steer. ABS allows the driver to steer and brake at the same time although you might not stop as quickly.

Wibbs · 12-01-2017 11:14pm

Funny enough P I had this very experience many moons ago in the first ABS equipped car I ever drove. Only in my case it was a loose gravel road. I had to apply the brakes in a hurry and… well let's just say I was glad the seats were of the wipe down variety. My eyes and sphincter went big and round.

Just as you describe the thing juddered the pedal, made much of clicking, but stopping was a vague notion in my uncertain future. Many evocations to various deities were uttered almost at the speed of the ABS controller unit.

IMHO and it is just MH of course, ABS is a bloody lifesaver, most of the time, but on certain loose surfaces not so much. Without, the tyres will dig a furrow through the loose down to grip as it were. With, the tyres will skate for far longer across the loose.

It would also be MH and maybe a bit out there, but I think some drivers rely far too much on such safety features and have lost some "road craft" because of it. The "oh the ABS, airbags and traction control will keep me "safe"". For myself anyway I am convinced that my cars lack of all of the above has made me a much more careful driver, because my cowardice and self preservation kicks in. Basically I feel more vulnerable and my skill or lack of it as the case is, makes it's presence felt.

I seem to recall that some older cars had the option to switch off ABS? Like hold down the pedal on start up while doing something else and it would be set to OFF?

Special Circumstances · 12-01-2017 11:20pm

peasant wrote: »

Don't get me wrong...I quite like ABS, in almost all situations
I'd still like an off-switch though...for those "other" scenarios....like today

If there's a specific fuse you can add a switch/relay to do the job no problem. To me it's the equivalent of people (Satan worshippin deviants definitely) with certain road/off road machines having "quick release" droplinks for handling on road and better articulation/traction offroad.

Obviously your insurance would be void in a land where "aftermarket radios" are verboten but at least your vehicle would be safer in certain conditions.

ZENER · 13-01-2017 1:42am

Isn't the purpose of ABS to let you maintain control is such circumstances ? If the wheels are locked and skidding then steering away from danger isn't going to work too well is it ?

Ken

Atlantic Dawn · 13-01-2017 2:27am

Traction control off is so much more fun than ABS on or off. I've had 2 cars with it and with the switch off it's night and day with the foot down.

gctest50 · 13-01-2017 2:28am

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If there's a specific fuse you can add a switch/relay to do the job no problem.

A problem you might have with that is there may not be a load-valve on the rear suspension

And the traction, active diff and all that will go ( bonus pain : they may have made they diff a bit weaker since the electronics will give it an easier time

You need to ask your local Satan worshippin deviant (easy spotted with the quick-release rose-jointed drop links

) to disable it in software

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I
To me it's the equivalent of people (Satan worshippin deviants definitely) with certain road/off road machines having "quick release" droplinks for handling on road and better articulation/traction offroad.

beauf · 13-01-2017 3:28am

ZENER wrote: »

Isn't the purpose of ABS to let you maintain control is such circumstances ? If the wheels are locked and skidding then steering away from danger isn't going to work too well is it ?

Ken

My understanding is that it allows you to steer but also modulates the braking so it doesn't lock up. Locking up isn't just a loss of control but it's slows you down slower than the tires still moving. The ABS keeps the braking at that optimum point.

One of our cars abs the other mine has none. For me the abs wins hands down. In 2010 turning abs on/off had no effect in my opinion because it was equally bad on summer tyres. I've decent all seasons on the abs car now.

On YouTube there's loads of clips of 4x4s on summer tyres getting stuck in mild conditions, light snow etc.

Del2005 · 13-01-2017 4:04am

peasant wrote: »

Holy sh*t! All of 3 hailstones on the road and my car will not stop !

So ...first "snow" of the year, first "snow" in the new (to me) car...go to the big parking lot where there is some untouched "snow" left ant try out how this car reacts when it gets slippy.

First let me say ...it's on brand new Nankang summer tyres (obviously not chosen by me but stuck on by the dealer without asking me and before I bought it) which are - surprisingly- quite good on dry and wet roads but by just looking at them you'd know they won't be up to much in snow.

So anyhow ..here I am on "snow" ...actually just a freshly put down layer of hailstones, not frozen, just a tad slippy ...more mush than anything really.

Put the shoe down and ..yees, four wheel drive works. Massive wheelspin in 2WD, hardly any traction at all, but very convincing forward motion in 4WD ...so far so good.

Now for the braking:
Holy mother of inertia ...there's no stopping at all ..nothing, nada. The brake pedal is doing a high speed samba underfoot, the noises out of the ABS unit are mimicking a barrage of machine guns at the Somme...but the car just keeps on going. A speed of 20 - 30 km/h equals a stopping distance of 20 - 30 m...thank feck the parking lot was empty :eek:

So I need to get out to check the surface ...there must be black ice under that mushy hail mess ...surely.
Nope...perfectly grippy asphalt under a layer of not even 1 cm of hailstones.

An old jaloppy without ABS would slip for less than a blink of an eye and then just
stop. like that. just stop.

Yet my modern car with ABS, ESP, auto 4wd, hill start assist, hill descent control etc, etc has the stopping distance of an oil tanker :rolleyes:

Please please ...all you car manufacturers and safety gurus ...pleeeeease give us ABS that can be switched off.

Would not want to think about what it would be like to have to drive my yoke in town traffic on a snow covered road ...I think I'd rather walk

EDIT

Ohh ..and I forgot ...the ESP does indeed have an off switch ...why not the ABS, hmm?

This is why I always laugh when people say you need a 4x4 for snow/ice. Getting going is the easy bit it's the getting stopped that counts and when there's F all grip on the road the only thing that'll get you stopped safely is to be going slowly in the 1st place. The only way to get traction on snow/ice is studs or chains anything else you're relying on luck to get you stopped safely.

Esel · 13-01-2017 7:08am

Hailstones, gravel, is not liked by ABS, afaik.

Special Circumstances · 13-01-2017 10:12am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Traction control off is so much more fun than ABS on or off. I've had 2 cars with it and with the switch off it's night and day with the foot down.

gctest50 wrote: »

And the traction, active diff and all that will go ( bonus pain : they may have made they diff a bit weaker since the electronics will give it an easier time

This "traction control" you speak of? "Active diff"?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 13-01-2017 10:20am

If the nankang tyres have a V pattern thread then they will have zero traction in snow/ice. Even cheap Chinese tyres with a regular block thread pattern would be better as there is something to bite into the tarmac, the V pattern when spinning on ice/snow cannot bite into the tarmac as there are no leading edges on the thread. Goodyear F1's and any other tyre with a V thread pattern (regardless of cost) will be the same.

galwaytt · 13-01-2017 10:21am

It's your tyres, not the ABS.

All the ABS does is - and I know you know this already, but bear with me - is sense when traction is broken, then cut in.

Which means the traction, your tyres, have slipped. It's just doing what it's supposed to: it doesn't know whether snow, ice, or pea soup on the road.

The other influence could be the age of the vehicle: older vehicles have a rather crude ABS, whereas new ones are far more sophisticated.

Consider motorcycles with mandatory ABS: useless on gravel. But newest bikes have an 'off road' mode which changes it's behaviour so allowing an amount of lock, or slip, by %. Gotta buy a recent one though.

And your ABS doesn't have an off switch - and won't ever have one - because it's mandated by EU EWVTA rules (Whole Vehicle Type Approval Rules). Now mandatory on motorcycles too.

Wibbs · 13-01-2017 10:41am

galwaytt wrote: »

It's your tyres, not the ABS.

All the ABS does is - and I know you know this already, but bear with me - is sense when traction is broken, then cut in.

Which means the traction, your tyres, have slipped. It's just doing what it's supposed to: it doesn't know whether snow, ice, or pea soup on the road.

Oh I agree, but as you note:

Consider motorcycles with mandatory ABS: useless on gravel.

In the majority of cases with the vast majority of drivers ABS is a boon and has most certainly saved lives and many of them, but tyres or no, there are certain surface conditions where ABS is less effective than not. On the balance sheet of safety though ABS is a clear winner.

And your ABS doesn't have an off switch - and won't ever have one - because it's mandated by EU EWVTA rules (Whole Vehicle Type Approval Rules). Now mandatory on motorcycles too.

True dat.

PS Love your sig.

Special Circumstances · 13-01-2017 11:49am

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It's one of those things in the vast majority of cases ABS is extremely useful its only in unusual cases where its not. Same with airbags in some rare cases they can be more harm than good. I personally think ABS is the most important safety feature in a car.

Not so, a teeny weeny engine is according to insurance company stats - in 19 dickety 2 an ABS-less ford was much easier to insure than a japanese saloon with twice as many airbags and ABS (but a preposterous 2L petrol engine).

mickdw · 13-01-2017 11:51am

As someone said earlier, Audi back in early 90s had an off switch on the dash. Abs was automatically switched on at each start up. It was a very sensible system tbh and the manual did state that the switch was to allow you to turn off abs in the limited situations where skidding might allow shorter stopping distance. They mentioned loose gravel surface as an example.
I would like to have such a switch still tbh.

jacksie66 · 13-01-2017 11:54am

This post has been deleted.

NiallBoo · 13-01-2017 11:55am

OSI wrote: »

What "V" ?

That's the Eagle F1 asymmetric 2

The Eagle F1 looks like this:

Special Circumstances · 13-01-2017 12:00pm

mickdw wrote: »

I would like to have such a switch still tbh.

13-01-2017 12:08pm

Del2005 wrote: »

This is why I always laugh when people say you need a 4x4 for snow/ice. Getting going is the easy bit it's the getting stopped that counts and when there's F all grip on the road the only thing that'll get you stopped safely is to be going slowly in the 1st place. The only way to get traction on snow/ice is studs or chains anything else you're relying on luck to get you stopped safely.

You also have 4 wheels giving you engine braking also remember which can make a very big difference. Yes you have to go slow but say going down a steep hill at a steady speed 4 wheel drive will give you a lot more control and "hold you" much more than two wheel drive

unkel · 13-01-2017 12:56pm

peasant wrote: »

in the new (to me) car...

What beast of a 4WD car did you get?

peasant · 13-01-2017 1:16pm

unkel wrote: »

What beast of a 4WD car did you get?

2010 Nissan X-trail ...nice big boot to stuff the St. Bernhard mix into

Stupid ABS ...I demand an off switch

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