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anyone else fed up hearing about abortion already

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Comments

  • #362
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,029 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    Would you like to point out the flaws and bias in your statistics?

    all of the above cite their sources. what sources are you relying on to say they are wrong?


  • #363
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    ...................

    I wouldn't like for figures to be misrepresented.

    87% of abortions were performed at 12 weeks or less

    and 1.6% (or 2,914 abortions) occurred after 20 weeks.


    Have you a source for this so we all can have a look ?


  • #364
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    Would you like to point out the flaws and bias in your statistics?

    There is none that I am aware of. Regale me.


  • #365
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    That does not seem to match my experience. Do you have any figures you can cite to support this "most" claim. I have direct experience from online and off line debates in public and in private on the subject of abortion, and have researched a lot to do with it. And the quantity of people I have met who are pro-choice but without any kind of time limit I can literally count on one hand and still have fingers left over to have a kit-kat.

    What about AbortionRightsCampaign.ie, the largest grassroots pro-abortion rights campaign in Ireland?
    What should be the time limit on abortion access?

    In countries where abortion is legal and accessible, late term abortions are very rare. In the U.S 92% of abortions are carried out within the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. Only 1.2% take place on or after 21 weeks.

    When late term abortions do take place they are normally due to the discovery of a fatal foetal abnormality or concern for the health or life of the pregnant person.

    Making abortion legal and accessible means abortions take place earlier and are safer for women. When asked, the majority of women who have had abortions say they would have liked to have had them sooner, but financial limitations, lack of knowledge about, and difficulty in accessing, abortion services can cause delays in abortion access, which in turn leads to more late term abortions. Due to our restrictive laws and cost of travel, women who live in Ireland tend to have abortions later than those who live in the UK. 1/3 of Irish abortions are carried out at 10 weeks compared to 1/5 of UK women. Liberalising abortion laws here would mean abortions are carried out earlier.


  • #366
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    thee glitz wrote: »
    What about AbortionRightsCampaign.ie, the largest grassroots pro-abortion rights campaign in Ireland?

    That doesn't say anything to even remotely back up the statement that "Most pro abortion folk don't give a toss about time limit, it is the political ideology behind supporting it which matters to them."

    They literally quote some figures and use them to argue that legalising abortion would lead to less late term abortions. That strikes me as the complete opposite of 'not giving a toss about time limit'.


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  • #367
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Billy86 wrote: »
    That doesn't say anything to even remotely back up the statement that "Most pro abortion folk don't give a toss about time limit, it is the political ideology behind supporting it which matters to them."

    They literally quote some figures and use them to argue that legalising abortion would lead to less late term abortions. That strikes me as the complete opposite of 'not giving a toss about time limit'.

    That is from their own faq. They must have felt visitors would be interested in that specific question, decided to ask it of themselves, and then failed to answer it. Not incompletely or with a vague answer, but not at all.


  • #368
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    thee glitz wrote: »
    That is from their own faq. They must have felt visitors would be interested in that specific question, decided to ask it of themselves, and then failed to answer it. Not incompletely or with a vague answer, but not at all.
    Like I said, nowhere do they say they don't care about late term abortions, they argue that legalising abortion would lead to a reduction in them which is pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to reach for here.


  • #369
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Like I said, nowhere do they say they don't care about late term abortions, they argue that legalising abortion would lead to a reduction in them which is pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to reach for here.

    What should be the time limit on abortion access according to abortionrightscampaign.ie?


  • #370
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    thee glitz wrote: »
    What should be the time limit on abortion access according to abortionrightscampaign.ie?
    Where do they say that they don't give a toss about late term abortions?


  • #371
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Where do they say that they don't give a toss about late term abortions?
    In their faq section where, when asked to do so (by themselves), they don't specify any limit.


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  • #372
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    thee glitz wrote: »
    In their faq section where, when asked to do so (by themselves), they don't specify any limit.

    And they try to show that legalising it would lead to less late term abortions. So if as your view they don't give a toss about late term abortions, why would they use that as a reason for legalisation of abortion?


  • #373
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Billy86 wrote: »
    And they try to show that legalising it would lead to less late term abortions. So if as your view they don't give a toss about late term abortions, why would they use that as a reason for legalisation of abortion?
    To mislead people presumably. Why won't they answer their own question?


  • #374
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    thee glitz wrote: »
    To mislead people presumably. Why won't they answer their own question?


    Because what is really needed is no criminal law restricting abortion at all



    Canada is like that, works well :

    Canada is one of the very few countries in the world that has no criminal law restricting abortion at all


  • #375
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    thee glitz wrote: »
    What about AbortionRightsCampaign.ie, the largest grassroots pro-abortion rights campaign in Ireland?

    The user who replied to you already pointed out what I would have said too. This quote of yours does not back up the statement that "most" do not give a toss about a time limit. In fact they are saying the EXACT opposite, that a legal abortion on demand would help to make abortions happen EARLIER. Which means they are showing concern for when abortions occur.

    So rather than prove the statement, you showed evidence supporting the exact opposite of the statement. Good work.... I guess. :)
    thee glitz wrote: »
    In their faq section where, when asked to do so (by themselves), they don't specify any limit.

    That does not show they do not give a toss about any time limit though. It just shows they suck at answering questions. As you point out, they failed to answer the question asked.

    That is poor form and they should be lambasted for it. And you will be happy to hear I just emailed their site telling them exactly that in no uncertain terms.

    But until they answer the question CORRECTLY, it is not evidence supporting the statement that "most" people do not care because:

    A) The answer given does not support the claim, we need a better answer to hear their actual opinion on the matter
    and
    B) One single organisation is not "most" anyway.


  • #376
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    thee glitz wrote: »
    To mislead people presumably. Why won't they answer their own question?

    Mislead people how, it's factually true: accessible abortion means that people who would have had later term abortions have them earlier instead. If you keep reading the FAQ page (which I definitely concede could do with an edit), the question is further addressed - questions of a time limit are not a priority, repealing the eighth is. Which makes sense, because even in the countries with the most liberal abortion legislation, late term abortions are vanishingly rare. Pro-life people are fcuking obsessed with them though.

    As you pointed out they're Ireland's largest grassroots pro-choice organisation, they necessarily represent a multiplicity of views, that and I'd guess an FAQ page being written by multiple contributors has resulted in that answer. I've contacted them to point out the issue, I'm sure you have too :)


  • #377
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    thee glitz wrote: »
    To mislead people presumably. Why won't they answer their own question?

    1. Awww

    2. Thx, never saw that website

    www.abortionrightscampaign.ie

    before, must donate a few euro


  • #378
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    thee glitz wrote: »
    What should be the time limit on abortion access according to abortionrightscampaign.ie?

    They love late term abortions
    The decision whether or not to have an abortion should be left to the woman’s own conscience, in consultation with her health-care providers. Late-term abortions are no exception.


  • #379
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    If I were advising the pro life campaign I would stress the importance of highlighting the terrible problem the pro abortion side have with the time limit.
    In this thread a poster insists that there is no baby until birth has occurred and the umbilical cord cut
    It's a fetus from conception till first independent breath
    If there's no baby then obviously there's no person.
    Even when I'm typing this it further reinforces my conviction that that is wrong wrong wrong
    Anyway, if it's not a baby, just an it from conception to delivery, then why put any limit on how late you can decide to stop its heart?


  • #380
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Several yes, thanks for asking.

    It is not a single citation either. The figures bear out year after year in the places such figures are maintained.

    For example here in 2013 "Facts about Abortion" under "WHEN DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?" they tell us that "89-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC)."

    Gutmacher bear this out in 2011 too with 91% happening then.... and actually 66% of them happening before 8 weeks.

    We see similar results when we move away from the US into Canada where we are seeing 89.4% done by 12 weeks.

    While in the UK we see pretty much the same thing with "(79% took place before 10 weeks gestation) with only one in ten taking place over 13 weeks gestation." leaving us with essentially 90% there too (one in ten after leaving nine in ten before).

    And, to go a bit more random, Norway say that "An increasing percentage of all abortions are performed before 9 weeks gestation." with "80.3 % of abortions took place by the end of the 8th week." and that "Terminations after the 12th week of pregnancy have to be approved by a local committee "

    So there is small variance from country to country but in general it levels out around the mark of 90% happening in or before the 12 week mark.
    I see you have removed the + from behind the 90% and "before 12 weeks" suddenly becomes "around the 12 week mark", that's not what you've been repeatedly saying :pac:

    Link a) doesn't say before 12 weeks
    Link b) from a pro abortion institute, 2011 was a anomily year in abortion numbers
    Link c) canada doesn't have manadatory reporting and there are no records for almost half of abortions
    Link d) not 12 weeks
    Link e) not 12 weeks


    Not to mention the cherry picking of countries to produce this shoddy misrepresentation of 90%+ under 12 weeks battlecry


  • #381
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    jameorahiely wrote: »

    They love late term abortions

    The decision whether or not to have an abortion should be left to the woman’s own conscience, in consultation with her health-care providers. Late-term abortions are no exception.





    http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/06/they-say-we-say/

    They say: Pro-choice groups want abortion ‘up until birth’.
    We say: Late-term abortions are extremely rare, however, they often coincide with the most difficult cases for women, girls and their families. Many late-term abortions occur as a result of diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality, or take place among young women who did not know they were pregnant or could not access services in a timely manner. Later-term abortions also result from circumstances of abuse and forced pregnancy. It’s important to resist stigmatising late-term abortions without understanding and having compassion for the challenging circumstances that they arise from.


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  • #382
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    They love late term abortions


    Why would anyone love late term abortions james ?


  • #383
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Because what is really needed is no criminal law restricting abortion at all



    Canada is like that, works well :
    I'd sooner be a foetus here tbh.

    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    The user who replied to you already pointed out what I would have said too. This quote of yours does not back up the statement that "most" do not give a toss about a time limit. In fact they are saying the EXACT opposite, that a legal abortion on demand would help to make abortions happen EARLIER. Which means they are showing concern for when abortions occur.

    So rather than prove the statement, you showed evidence supporting the exact opposite of the statement. Good work.... I guess. :)
    It does not show concern AT ALL. The answer provided does not address the question in any way.
    That does not show they do not give a toss about any time limit though. It just shows they suck at answering questions. As you point out, they failed to answer the question asked.

    That is poor form and they should be lambasted for it. And you will be happy to hear I just emailed their site telling them exactly that in no uncertain terms.
    I am happy to hear that - have a thanks.
    But until they answer the question CORRECTLY, it is not evidence supporting the statement that "most" people do not care because:

    A) The answer given does not support the claim, we need a better answer to hear their actual opinion on the matter
    and
    B) One single organisation is not "most" anyway.
    Sure we'll see what happens.
    Alivia Early Eyeball wrote: »
    Mislead people how, it's factually true: accessible abortion means that people who would have had later term abortions have them earlier instead. If you keep reading the FAQ page (which I definitely concede could do with an edit), the question is further addressed - questions of a time limit are not a priority, repealing the eighth is. Which makes sense, because even in the countries with the most liberal abortion legislation, late term abortions are vanishingly rare. Pro-life people are fcuking obsessed with them though.
    I know I'm not obsessed with them, but recognise that Many are.
    As you pointed out they're Ireland's largest grassroots pro-choice organisation, they necessarily represent a multiplicity of views, that and I'd guess an FAQ page being written by multiple contributors has resulted in that answer. I've contacted them to point out the issue, I'm sure you have too :)
    I appreciate that. I won't bother now that you too have, so thanks goes to you also.
    gctest50 wrote: »
    1. Awww

    2. Thx, never saw that website

    www.abortionrightscampaign.ie

    before, must donate a few euro
    Save yourself the few quid - Soros would sort them out if he saw fit.


  • #384
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    thee glitz wrote: »


    Save yourself the few quid - Soros would sort them out if he saw fit.

    Good point - wonder does he know of them ?


  • #385
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    marienbad wrote: »
    Why would anyone love late term abortions james ?
    Maybe they like the attention they get when pregnant but can't be bothered to raise the child? I don't know. Their body, their choice.


  • #386
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    Maybe they like the attention they get when pregnant but can't be bothered to raise the child? I don't know. Their body, their choice.

    You don't know then , at least we agree on something .


  • #387
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    marienbad wrote: »
    You don't know then , at least we agree on something .

    Are you pro late term abortions yourself?


  • #388
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    Are you pro late term abortions yourself?

    No James me boy just like I am not late term brain surgery , late term cancer treatment , late anything really .


  • #389
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    marienbad wrote: »
    No James me boy just like I am not late term brain surgery , late term cancer treatment , late anything really .

    Yor against late
    term brain surgery? Let them die? I hope you don't use the "we need abortion because women are dying" mantra. It would be a bit hypocritical of a position to hold.


    Anyway, I take it you are anti late term abortions (but maybe you're pro but don't feel comfortable declaring your support for them). What would you consider to be late term? When does a womans body and choice stop being her body and choice in your opinion?


  • #390
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    jameorahiely wrote: »
    Yor against late
    term brain surgery? Let them die?
    How about you James, are you for or against abortions where the mother and child are both facing certain death?


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  • #391
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    Billy86 wrote: »
    How about you James, are you for or against abortions where the mother and child are both facing certain death?

    If it's certain death both are facing, why do we need to kill them?

    How about you?


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