AIG requiring NCT/Engineer's report on classics

kadman · 12-01-2017 12:01pm #1

Heard on the grapevine, industry level, that this is going to happen.

No longer will classic death traps be allowed to participate in
social and domestic motoring.

Nct testing or otherwise is going to be the order of the day, if you
want to drive your classic. And it doesn,t matter what year it is.
Pre 80 included.

No doubt heaps of rust buckets will now hit donedeal by the score.

I feel safer already:D

cormie · 12-01-2017 12:03pm

And here I was on the lookout for a pre 1980 car to avoid the hassle of an NCT :pac:

TherapyBoy · 12-01-2017 12:05pm

Will the tests for these cars be restricted in some way? How do you test a 1960's Mercedes for example on emissions/braking/suspension etc, it will never be comparable to a modern car.

jimgoose · 12-01-2017 12:06pm

I shall be interested to see what they make of my 1930 Duesenberg Model J Walker La Grande Torpedo Phaeton. :cool:

davo2001 · 12-01-2017 12:08pm

Source?

biko · 12-01-2017 12:39pm

I'll believe it when an official source confirms it

Atlantic Dawn · 12-01-2017 12:41pm

Any stats on how many classics were involved in serious crashes or deaths, I don't recall any major incidents featuring in the media at any time.

kadman · 12-01-2017 1:18pm

One type of confirmation is when your insurance company asks for an NCT or engineers report,
same thing now, before they will offer cover for your classic, that needed no report last year.

Second confirmation could be that the engineers report has to come from a SQI, and not the local
back alley greasemonkey.

And third level of confirmation is that its a new policy by insurers across the board.

And finally...................who have the government been meeting in the last weeks trying
to reduce yur insurance costs.......

TherapyBoy · 12-01-2017 1:56pm

It's meaningless. If they're testing pre 1980 cars they'll have to be tested to manufacturers standards at the time of manufacture.
Post your source.

kadman · 12-01-2017 2:26pm

Source......try insuring a classic now.....without an NCT or engineers report.

Short answer is you cant, ergo testing in some shape or form is compulsory.

cormie · 12-01-2017 2:43pm

Can you even NCT a pre 1980 car now though? You can't just show up to NCT centre to NCT a car without an invitation?

Maybe it's just insurers imposing their own rules as a way to cut out a certain market they deem "outside of their risk appetite", the usual ****e.

macplaxton · 12-01-2017 2:50pm

cormie wrote: »

Can you even NCT a pre 1980 car now though?

You can and always have been able to do a voluntary one. Nearly nobody does.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/should-classic-cars-be-immune-from-nct-tests-1.1265856

I think the official figures are around about 100 done this way. (Can't find the exact figures yet, but I think most of them were PCV / wedding car sort of things)

macplaxton · 12-01-2017 2:58pm

Slightly OT but related as it's do with actual EU mandatory testing rather than "backdoor" mandatory testing by insurers.

Member States can do what they like for historic vehicles.

They can test them, or they can exempt them.

Member States also have the right to exclude from the requirement to undergo compulsory roadworthiness testing certain vehicles that are considered to be of historic interest. They may also establish their own testing standards for such vehicles provided they do not lead to the application of stricter standards than those which the vehicles concerned were originally designed to meet. (RSA - VINTAGE VEHICLES Public Consultation Vehicle Standards October 2014)

Article 2.2

Member States may exclude the following vehicles registered in their territory from the scope of application of this Directive:
—
vehicles operated or used in exceptional conditions and vehicles which are never, or hardly ever, used on public roads, such as vehicles of historical interest or competition vehicles;

Article 3.7

‘vehicle of historical interest’ means any vehicle which is considered to be historical by the Member State of registration or one of its appointed authorising bodies and which fulfils all the following conditions:
— it was manufactured or registered for the first time at least 30 years ago;
— its specific type, as defined in the relevant Union or national law, is no longer in production;
— it is historically preserved and maintained in its original state and has not undergone substantial changes in the technical characteristics of its main components;

Member States have wiggle room on the above and can interpret what is and isn't original (e.g. Austin 7 specials which were modified a long time back and preserved that way could be treated differently to a 1970s car with a new body hammered over the top of it) but they can't just give an exemption on age alone.

I can see some distinction being made between daily drivers and occasional use cars.

Article 23.1

Member States shall adopt and publish, by 20 May 2017, the laws, regulations and administrative measures necessary to comply with this Directive. They shall immediately inform the Commission thereof.
They shall apply those measures from 20 May 2018.

Member States have to apply the rules from 2018, but they need to set out their stall a year before, so time is running short.

millington · 12-01-2017 3:13pm

Just off the phone with Axa. Mentioned this and he hadn't a clue what I was on about.

kadman · 12-01-2017 3:30pm

millington wrote: »

Just off the phone with Axa. Mentioned this and he hadn't a clue what I was on about.

Did you get a quote for a pre 80 classic, were you asked for an engineers report or NCT?

What exactly did you ask him?

millington · 12-01-2017 4:55pm

kadman wrote: »

Did you get a quote for a pre 80 classic, were you asked for an engineers report or NCT?

What exactly did you ask him?

No but I insured a 1986 classic which is out of NCT as it is off the road and there was no questions asked. He never mentioned NCT until I brought up the story from this thread and he hadn't heard of anything.

DakarVert · 12-01-2017 5:01pm

I hate these types of threads.... Word will get out and people will quote it as fact for the next 6months.

Is their any actual proof or did you just speak to someone awkward when trying to get insurance?

kadman · 12-01-2017 6:10pm

It was a request for an NCT or engineers test form , for a classic car renewal that was on cover last year.

And the affirmation that this is a new thing thats requested by insurance under writers.

I cant supply any more proof, without kidnapping the insurance agent and water boarding him.

What proof will the insurance give you..........surely refusal to insure without the test docs is

proof enough??

kadman · 12-01-2017 6:19pm

Quote from e mail reply,

This is a relatively new thing. XXXXXXXXXXX have recently introduced this, either
NCT or an engineer's report for the

End quote.

Neilw · 12-01-2017 6:29pm

kadman wrote: »

Source......try insuring a classic now.....without an NCT or engineers report.

Short answer is you cant, ergo testing in some shape or form is compulsory.

I insured a car yesterday with no questions asked about nct or an engineers report, it was an 84 car.

kadman · 12-01-2017 6:34pm

Neilw wrote: »

I insured a car yesterday with no questions asked about nct or an engineers report, it was an 84 car.

Was it a classic policy??

Neilw · 12-01-2017 6:52pm

kadman wrote: »

Was it a classic policy??

Yes.

kadman · 12-01-2017 7:08pm

Neilw wrote: »

Yes.

Nice one.

Yesterday I was asked for nct or engineers report for a 74 car that was on cover last year, along with an 87 vintage vehicle. 87 one is DOE,d.

Car is mechanically tip top, body could do with a bit of tidying, but I wont be doing it this year due to other projects.

Apparently its as new thing from AIG

kadman · 12-01-2017 7:40pm

Neilw wrote: »

I insured a car yesterday with no questions asked about nct or an engineers report, it was an 84 car.

Insurance methods dont need to impose your car for an nct.

Its already law for an 84 car.

My car was 74 , hence the possible underhand method of forcing
testing on my car, that at the moment does not need a test.

Dont get me wrong, I think all 2 ton metal objects travelling on the road need testing.

elperello · 12-01-2017 7:46pm

Are there any proper statistics re. the number of accidents caused by pre 1980 non tested vehicles.

Neilw · 12-01-2017 7:47pm

kadman wrote: »

Insurance methods dont need to impose your car for an nct.

Its already law for an 84 car.

My car was 74 , hence the possible underhand method of forcing
testing on my car, that at the moment does not need a test.

Dont get me wrong, I think all 2 ton metal objects travelling on the road need testing.

I had a 79 on the policy too, never a word about tests or engineer reports.

jca · 12-01-2017 7:54pm

macplaxton wrote: »

You can and always have been able to do a voluntary one. Nearly nobody does.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/should-classic-cars-be-immune-from-nct-tests-1.1265856

I think the official figures are around about 100 done this way. (Can't find the exact figures yet, but I think most of them were PCV / wedding car sort of things)

Any vehicle regardless of age if it's being used for hire or reward (PSV) must by law have an Nct and a suitability test.

TherapyBoy · 12-01-2017 8:35pm

So this is not a government department mandated change to the NCT system for cars registered before 1980, or a new certification needed by an engineer for classic/vintage motors. It's just something one insurance company requested from you.
Glad we cleared it up.

Neilw · 12-01-2017 8:50pm

TherapyBoy wrote: »

So this is not a government department mandated change to the NCT system for cars registered before 1980, or a new certification needed by an engineer for classic/vintage motors. It's just something one insurance company requested from you.
Glad we cleared it up.

Scaremongering.

elperello · 12-01-2017 10:14pm

Glad to see that clarified.

The only thing that gets a lot of people through the Winter is the thought that come Spring there will be lots of Morris Minors, VW Beetles, Ford Anglias etc etc out and about at shows and on runs giving lots of pleasure to owners and the public as well as raising funds for charitable causes.

Long may they prosper without the dead hand of so called safety measures.

shawnee · 12-01-2017 11:30pm

kadman wrote: »

Source......try insuring a classic now.....without an NCT or engineers report.

Short answer is you cant, ergo testing in some shape or form is compulsory.[/QUOTE

Scaremongering again, must be the new year. No problem insuring a classic without nct and there is no immediate plans to change the laws. Enjoy your hobby:P:P:P

john hanrahan · 12-01-2017 11:32pm

hi
i have 2 cars on a classic policy with no modern car, i rang the insurance a few weeks ago as i was thinking of buying a more modern car, the classic's were driving me nuts, asking what was the youngest car i could put on the policy.

i was told amonst other things that from next august? any car added to the policy would have to have an NCT i am assuming that is for a car where an NCT is required as that was the age of the cars i was asking about.

i won't have to have the cars currently on the policy NCT'd although one is as its a 1993 the other is a 1976 only cars added after august, also she said they were no longer insuring 4x4 or commercial vehicles.

that is with AIG, so its the insurance company requiring it

80sDiesel · 12-01-2017 11:45pm

Fake news. One insurer wants an NCT on all classics and now sudden it's the law. Gotta love the internet huh!

Dades · 13-01-2017 11:28am

Envisaged actual scenario: Insurers will require an NCT for any post-79 car to issue a policy. i.e. Any car that currently by law requires an NCT cert to be on the road needs to have one. Fair enough.

Worst case scenario: Pre-80 cars may require some sort of report to get insured.

While it's easy for insurers to change policies, I can't see the present toothless government bothering their arses to actually change the law. I also very much doubt tightening the screw on vintage vehicles would make a blind bit of difference to spiraling insurance costs, or road traffic accidents.

zilog_jones · 13-01-2017 12:35pm

I'd be concerned that NCT testers won't know how to drive classic cars properly. I'm sure there are many people under 35 or so who have never driven a car with no power steering, no servo-assisted brakes, manual chokes, etc. - never mind pre-war stuff with manual ignition advance/retard and non-standard pedals. I've heard of enough cases of testers breaking modern cars, would you trust them?

If they ever do make tests mandatory for such cars, there should probably be special dispensation to allow the owner to take it through the test.

macplaxton · 13-01-2017 1:13pm

MOD edit: I've changed the thread title to better reflect the actual situation

w124man · 13-01-2017 7:34pm

Of course we all know that your insurance company can, if they wish to, invalidate your insurance should you not have a valid NCT at the time of a claim.

We all also know that your insurance company can, if they wish to, invalidate your insurance should you have an accident and their assessor - if they want to employ one to investigate - says the car was not fit for the road at the time of the accident.

We all know that don't we because we have all read the small print, haven't we!!

ajmboyce · 14-01-2017 12:39am

kadman wrote: »

Source......try insuring a classic now.....without an NCT or engineers report.

Short answer is you cant, ergo testing in some shape or form is compulsory.

There is absolutely no problem insuring a classic as i have just done so your statements are inaccurate also what percentage of accidents are classic cars involved in? Do you know? Do you live in an imaginary world where "rust buckets"as you called them roll about like tumbleweed? The vast majority of people tend to look after their classic,vintage and veteran cars better than most everyday cars are looked after. So as for feeling a whole lot safer you must be jumping outside of your skin with nerves if the odd classic with a few scabs of rust happens buy to make you feel that unsafe you must live in a little bubble what about a bicycle should they be tested too?? I think you are just stirring the pot and are full of spoof.

Dades · 15-01-2017 12:07am

I hate to say it, the fixing of the NCT cutoff date at 1/1/80 was probably a good thing. Otherwise there would be a load of chancers just picking up 80's car and driving them around in any condition for the 'chape tax' and test-free driving.

70's cars require at least some form of commitment to drive regularly.

The downside is it pretty much condemns most 80s and 90s cars to the scrapheap as the increased complexity and electrics make it harder and harder to get through a test.

Thinkingaboutit · 15-01-2017 12:21am

ajmboyce wrote: »

There is absolutely no problem insuring a classic as i have just done so your statements are inaccurate also what percentage of accidents are classic cars involved in? Do you know? Do you live in an imaginary world where "rust buckets"as you called them roll about like tumbleweed? The vast majority of people tend to look after their classic,vintage and veteran cars better than most everyday cars are looked after. So as for feeling a whole lot safer you must be jumping outside of your skin with nerves if the odd classic with a few scabs of rust happens buy to make you feel that unsafe you must live in a little bubble what about a bicycle should they be tested too?? I think you are just stirring the pot and are full of spoof.

Yes, OP has posted what's called #fakenews. The idea that engineer's reports are needed to insure one suggests he's confused. I've insured one for ten years or more without even a hint of asking for one. Perhaps he's thinking of modified cars, but that post suggests he isn't thinking. Classic cars tend to show far more evidence of care, than some seven year old covered in nicks and unrepair scratches, and with the beginnings of rust where some damage occurred.

elperello · 15-01-2017 12:33am

Dades wrote: »

I hate to say it, the fixing of the NCT cutoff date at 1/1/80 was probably a good thing. Otherwise there would be a load of chancers just picking up 80's car and driving them around in any condition for the 'chape tax' and test-free driving.

70's cars require at least some form of commitment to drive regularly.

The downside is it pretty much condemns most 80s and 90s cars to the scrapheap as the increased complexity and electrics make it harder and harder to get through a test.

You have a point about chancers but where would they get the cars that would stand up to everyday use. The commitment needed to keep an old car on the road would soon drive most chancers back to more modern cars.

The problem about 80's and 90's cars will need to be addressed before we lose a big chunk of motoring heritage but I'm not holding my breath!

Wibbs · 17-01-2017 11:37am

Dades wrote: »

The downside is it pretty much condemns most 80s and 90s cars to the scrapheap as the increased complexity and electrics make it harder and harder to get through a test.

That's a worry alright.

Well, in Ireland anyway, they'll survive fine elsewhere, not least with our fellow petrolheads in the UK(maybe even moreso now with Brexit). I personally know of a couple of British lads who have come over here to pick up cars from both decades and on the cheap too, because of our insane insurance and government guff drives the price way down compared to over there.

kyote00 · 18-01-2017 12:44am

The other half is a "domestic engineer" of some skill.... does that count....

kadman · 18-01-2017 10:47am

da_hambo wrote: »

I have got a classic 83 with AIG due for renewal next week and I indeed did get an email looking for an NCT certificate or engineer report or they wont renew me this year. I explained it would be impossible with the car hibernating for the winter to get an NCT in such a short space of time and they replied that AIG could not cover me without one.
Those that have gotten a classic policy recently please Pm me with insurance company and or contact name. Thanks!

But by law you have to have an NCT for your car its 83, nothing unusual
about that.

BUt in my case, my car is 76, and has been insured for the last 10 years as a classic, and was informed that the new thing is for an NCT or engineers report, by the insurance broker. Thats unusual if its going to be the norm.

At the moment its only AIG as far as I,ve been able to find out.

And for those that think I,m new to classics, I,m not. I,ve been insuring
and driving classics for most of my driving career, and its long as I,m 62.
And up until a week ago I,ve never been asked for an NCT or an engineers report in all that time.

I am waiting on replies from other insurance, as soon as I get them, i,ll post

TherapyBoy · 18-01-2017 2:58pm

kadman wrote: »

And for those that think I,m new to classics, I,m not. I,ve been insuring
and driving classics for most of my driving career, and its long as I,m 62.

Calling them "rust buckets" & "death traps" in your original post had us fooled.

kadman · 18-01-2017 3:48pm

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Calling them "rust buckets" & "death traps" in your original post had us fooled.

Trust me I,ve seen a lot of rustbuckets at shows, that shouldn,t be on the road,
and from so called experts.

But thats another thread.

jca · 18-01-2017 5:01pm

kadman wrote: »

Trust me I,ve seen a lot of rustbuckets at shows, that shouldn,t be on the road,
and from so called experts.

But thats another thread.

That's for sure. P.S. The apostrophe (') is on the same key as the (@)

kadman · 18-01-2017 6:00pm

jca wrote: »

That's for sure. P.S. The apostrophe (') is on the same key as the (@)

So..........

All the future action plans regarding insurance and the government plans
are in the appropriate document online, apostrophe,,,,,,,,s included:p

kadman · 18-01-2017 6:27pm

Just took this from the online discussion document between the Government and Insurance companies.
I think the points in reference to NCT/CRW proof is an interesting proposal.

In the current situation a pre 80 car needs no test, but insurance companies can demand one presumably if they decide to. And they give insurance, not the government.

10.2 Maximising the use of the NCT/CRW

At present, there is a lack of a facility available to insurance companies to verify whether a driver holds a valid NCT/CRW.

What is proposed?

The establishment of the database of insured and uninsured drivers and the Master Licence Record will provide insurance companies with the
facility to check for proof of the NCT/CRW before offering insurance, or at the renewal stage.
The benefits of this proposal are significant in the view of the Working Group as it should remove a number of unsafe vehicles from our roads.

Once the Master Licence Record is up and running (see Recommendation 30
above for more detail),an insurance company will be able to use the driver licence number to readily access information such as the valid NCT cert when selling insurance.

The Working Group recommends a general protocol be developed between the insurance industry and the NVDF to provide for insurers checking for proof of NCT/CRW.

The Working Group considers it is in the best interests of the insurers and the insured that these checks are done. The introduction of this recommendation should lead to a follow-on reduction in the number of claims.

jca · 18-01-2017 6:36pm

kadman wrote: »

So..........

All the future action plans regarding insurance and the government plans
are in the appropriate document online, apostrophe,,,,,,,,s included:p

I think you mean comma,,,,,:P

TherapyBoy · 18-01-2017 6:56pm

kadman wrote: »

Just took this from the online discussion document between the Government and Insurance companies.
I think the points in reference to NCT/CRW proof is an interesting proposal.

In the current situation a pre 80 car needs no test, but insurance companies can demand one presumably if they decide to. And they give insurance, not the government.

10.2 Maximising the use of the NCT/CRW

At present, there is a lack of a facility available to insurance companies to verify whether a driver holds a valid NCT/CRW.

What is proposed?

The establishment of the database of insured and uninsured drivers and the Master Licence Record will provide insurance companies with the
facility to check for proof of the NCT/CRW before offering insurance, or at the renewal stage.
The benefits of this proposal are significant in the view of the Working Group as it should remove a number of unsafe vehicles from our roads.

Once the Master Licence Record is up and running (see Recommendation 30
above for more detail),an insurance company will be able to use the driver licence number to readily access information such as the valid NCT cert when selling insurance.

The Working Group recommends a general protocol be developed between the insurance industry and the NVDF to provide for insurers checking for proof of NCT/CRW.

The Working Group considers it is in the best interests of the insurers and the insured that these checks are done. The introduction of this recommendation should lead to a follow-on reduction in the number of claims.

You need to stop doing this. The article you have posted above contains nothing whatsoever about insurance companies or the government implementing a national car test or any form of testing for cars registered before 1980. It simply says that insurance companies would like to have access to a database that will associate a car with a drivers license number & therefore the insurance company can tell whether the car has a valid current NCT or not before they will insure it.

Nothing about vintage or classic cars.

AIG requiring NCT/Engineer's report on classics

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