Suburb after suburb after suburb...

Grayson · 09-01-2017 09:57PM

Surprised no-one's posted this yet.

Electric Sheep · 09-01-2017 10:07PM

pilly wrote: »

On the other hand I've been in capital cities where you rarely see a child because people don't want to live in a high rise environment with kids and so move outside the city and commute in by train to work. It kind of sucks a bit of life out a city I think to not see kids around the place.

That was an issue in the USA in the past, but I have noticed that in the past 20 years, the flow has been in the opposite direction. More and more families are choosing to remain in the city in apartments (including the high rise complex in which I have lived for over 20 years) as they realize the quality of life is better in the city. No long commutes, easy access to high quality parks and recreation facilities, cultural facilities such as museums, etc. When we moved here there were very few children, now there are lots, and a new playground built for them as well as a large green area that is perfect for outdoor play.

Irish people tend to think "Ballymun Flats" whenever they think of high rise apartments, but it does not have to be like that. When the residents are paying market rent in well managed, well maintained apartment buildings, designed with the quality of life of the residents in mind the quality of life is far superior to living 3 bed semi detached houses that require long commutes to work and to all the advantages that the city offers to the whole family.

Of course, in Ireland I think there is a huge snobbery element to the whole thing, as with many things.

KingBrian2 · 09-01-2017 10:41PM

CaptainR wrote: »

My dad was out visiting his brother in Ongar who lives in a relatively new estate, they went to the local for a pint. One thing dad noticed was that the pub didn't seem real. He reckoned it was like a film set because it was so new. It had no character and just seemed so bland. It actually put him off enjoying the evening.

Someone else mentioned trees being planted to liven up an area, I've other family who live in older areas with big mature trees and they actually hate them. They shed leaves into there gardens and all over the footpath. They also destroy footpaths with the roots and can actually disturb the front garden walls by going under them.

Trees in a city are wonderful. This land was covered in nature long before we came and living close to nature studies have found is beneficial to our health and makes the city a lovely place. New York City is all the more better with Madison Square Garden.

muddypaws · 09-01-2017 10:47PM

A friend and his partner bought an apartment in this development in North London, it is a lovely place, a lot of us thought they were mad to go for it, they bought off plan, as Tottenham Hale wasn't exactly a nice part of London. However, the development is fantastic, there is a real community there, with space for children to play. They have a large balcony on their apartment, big enough for BBQs with friends, and a full size table tennis table so not much different to a lot of back gardens (or yards) in inner city homes in London. Obviously the website is very glossy but the development actually is lovely and pretty much as it is portrayed on the site.

http://www.halevillagelondon.com/

CelticRambler · 09-01-2017 10:47PM

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

In all my years I don't think I have ever met an Irish person who lives in places like the IFSC, Grand Canal Dock or the redeveloped parts of Smithfield.

I grew up in D14, and my biggest financial regret was not buying a two-bed apartment on Batchelor's Walk after I'd viewed it back in 90-something. I got a good new job in England, accommodation provided, and had money to spare but thought it'd be just a bit too tight to commit to a mortgage.

Now, every time I go back "home" I think of how much easier it'd be, and how much more fun I'd have in Dublin if I didn't have to get the bus into town everytime there was something on. I've got two young-adult children that would have got great use out of that city centre apartment over the last few years and two more who'd use it in the next few ... if I'd had it.

Nika Bolokov · 09-01-2017 10:56PM

It's a broader mentality change than just that of the planners.

I bought an apartment beside a Luas stop in South Dublin and many people seem to consider me a reckless financial maniac and ask ....would you not have bought a house ?

I know a lot of people who are buying a great house in a non descript village in Meath and commuting to Dublin in alledgedly only 45 minutes. Spending 3 hours a day commuting to buy a house is considered better than buying a cheaper apartment near where you work.

When that changes and apartment demand picks up ( you can currently get 2 bed apartments in Dublin 9 for 180k v 280 for a 2 bed house in Kildare) the market will force higher densities.

Bracken81 · 09-01-2017 10:56PM

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Isn't the reason Dublin doesn't have many high buildings because the bedrock is weak?
I could swear I read that somewhere.

Basically the rock under Dublin isn't strong enough to allow the building of really tall buildings on top of it.

Which is a good thing in my opinion, means Dublin doen'st look the same as anywhere else.
All the central European cities look the same, city square, old inner city, nice buildings and obligatory former-Jewish quarter and then nasty legoland blocks as far as the eye can see

Maybe years ago......when engineering was pants this was the case

Look at Dubai.....they've built a whole city on sand
Largest building in the world too :-)

Larbre34 · 09-01-2017 11:26PM

The reason Dublin never went high rise on a wider scale is quite simple. Sunlight.

An emminent urban planner in the 70s was obsessed by the potential dimness of the cityscape due to the loss of it and so it seeped into every major policy milestone of the next 40 years.

Very hard to retrofit a city given how far wrong we've gone in Transport, Planning and Land Use. But we dont have a choice but to try. Its worth remembering Dublin has the same footprint as Madrid. Greater Madrid's population is 550% that of Dublin.....

ThisRegard · 09-01-2017 11:40PM

I'm an unrepentant suburb lover, done right they're a great place to live. I done my apartment living abroad with private swimming pools and sports facilities but still prefer the space you get from suburban living.

I've seen Blanchardstown mentioned as being particularly sprawly, I don't think it is. I reckon the confusion stems from the likes of Ongar and Littlepace being lumped in with it. It's pretty much just the other side of the Phoenix Park. Dublin 15 is quite big, but that's much more than just Blanchardstown.

pilly · 09-01-2017 11:44PM

newacc2015 wrote:

Call me selfish. But if I had a choice between a large city centre apartment, where I could walk to work within 10 mins and be surrounded by cafes, shops, bars etc or have a house with a garden that is 60-90 min commute each way to work. I would choose the apartment any day.

Not everyone works in the city though?

Harry Palmr · 09-01-2017 11:51PM

A garden is a great resource if you're willing to use it as such.

09-01-2017 11:53PM

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

newacc2015 wrote: »

Call me selfish. But if I had a choice between a large city centre apartment, where I could walk to work within 10 mins and be surrounded by cafes, shops, bars etc or have a house with a garden that is 60-90 min commute each way to work. I would choose the apartment any day.
.

To be fair Irish people

a- don't like apartment living

Probably because we don't provide good apartments, with decent storage facilites, play facilities for children, shared units available for short-term rents for visitors, pets, monitored secured parking and more. It breaks my heart to go through apartment developments in Stepaside and see the 'no ball playing' signs up. It's no wonder kids are hanging round in lift lobbies causing trouble instead.

newacc2015 · 10-01-2017 01:02AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

I hope we don't go down the high rise route because I do think it would ruin the character of the city. I don't like the imposing feel of block after block of apartments, even ones built to a high standard.

What character of the city is that? One where the streets are empty at 12pm in the middle of the city as no one lives in it? The one where we live in isolated generic 3 bed semi-ds with no public transport? There is nothing imposing about high rise if you get used to it. Would you really notice the difference between a 30 storey apartment block over an 8 storey apartment block in somewhere like Dublin 8 by Heuston? More than likely not

Earthhorse · 10-01-2017 01:19AM

newacc2015 wrote: »

What character of the city is that? One where the streets are empty at 12pm in the middle of the city as no one lives in it? The one where we live in isolated generic 3 bed semi-ds with no public transport? There is nothing imposing about high rise if you get used to it. Would you really notice the difference between a 30 storey apartment block over an 8 storey apartment block in somewhere like Dublin 8 by Heuston? More than likely not

Oh right, I didn't realise late night activity was synonymous with character. Of course the streets of the suburbs are thronged with people at that hour. I said that public transport should be improved; you don't need to build high to do that. Getting used to imposing high rise buildings is precisely what I don't want to do. Of course humans can get used to anything. Would you really notice another identikit housing estate popping up on the outskirts of Dublin South? More than likely not.

CelticRambler · 10-01-2017 01:44AM

newacc2015 wrote: »

What character of the city is that? One where the streets are empty at 12pm in the middle of the city as no one lives in it?

Ah now ... ! :pac:

It's a standing joke amongst us non-French here in France that the town centres (even the bigger ones) are completely dead by 8pm, and they'd have plenty of people living in them.

On the other hand, I shared a 2am stroll through Dublin back in September with two classmates born-and-reared-in-the-southside-suburbs (Leopardstown and Killiney), now living well away from home. They couldn't get over the number of people out and about in the city - because usually when they came back to Dublin, they went straight to their suburban families and didn't go out at night!

JupiterKid · 10-01-2017 02:42AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Maybe people like having gardens if they've got children for them to run about in???

You can still have high density residential areas with 3/4 storey housing with gardens. Just look at the older Dublin suburbs like Drumcondra, Rathgar and Sandymount.

I myself live in an apartment complex in the older inner suburbs of Dublin that was built in the mid 1970s. There are communal gardens and quite a few young children in the complex and they seem pretty happy to play in the communal spaces. The soundproofing is quite good too. I actually think older purpose built apartments are much better in terms of space and build quality than the shoeboxes thrown up in the bubble era - Priory Hall is a case in point.

Likewise, much of the commuter belt housing estates built in the "boom" were rather badly built and planned.

Graces7 · 10-01-2017 04:05AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

A garden is a great resource if you're willing to use it as such.

These days the fashion is to put great rocks in the middle of a bit of grass and call it a garden... Few seem to grow food.

Chuchote · 10-01-2017 04:20AM

If we wanted, say, to make Dublin have the best of Paris and Berlin, we'd need to knock down great swathes of the city centre to build broader streets lined with five-storey solid redbrick apartment blocks, with apartments with the square footage of 3-bed semis, and with large garden parks.

Trying to build high in narrow Dublin streets would just result in dark, miserable canyons.

And if we want a city centre that's vibrant and alive we'd need to make the city cyclable rather than concentrating on cars. Where people cycle, and where there are safe parking facilities for bicycles, you get local shops and cafes and a local community where people talk to their neighbours and meet them in those shops and cafes and cinemas and libraries and parks.

Where cars are used, we'd need multi-storey car parks integrated into the areas, so parked cars wouldn't take up a third of the roads the way they do now.

And we'd need a mix of social classes - with good social housing like the HLMs in the central arrondissements of Paris, which are indistinguishable from private housing and which are inhabited by a mix of well-off and struggling people. None of the ghettoisation that now happens in Dublin, where in some cases good tenants who would lift a whole flatblock are driving out by effective one-extended-family control of the block.

Graces7 · 10-01-2017 05:53AM

The title reminds me of a school trip to London by train ( decades ago when we had only steam trains),

We thought we were nearly there when the houses started... but they just went on and on and on.

Hans Bricks · 10-01-2017 10:52AM

I'd be one of these "Celtic tiger cubs "who was born and grew up in the early 90s when everywhere west of the m50 started to really sprawl with 3 bed, semi-ds.

I reckon I could live in your low rise 3 - 5 storey apartments for a few years before I'm 30. But the idea of my own permanent , semi d home in greater Dublin, or some commuter town like Adamstown or Naas is engrained in me unfortunately. I just couldn't imagine a high rise lifestyle in and around the north/south circular roads or canal. As appealing as a quick commute to the city centre for work and social life would be, I'm lucky in the sense I work in a great job on the edge of Dublin and I'm less than a ten minute drive to work.

Could you really imagine asking most people my age and under 30 if they would rather a high rise apartment as their home for life after growing up with a front and back garden in suburban Dublin ? Im speaking personally but I'd be surprised if most of the people I grew up with didn't share the same desire for a suburban life in the future.

Chuchote · 10-01-2017 10:57AM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Could you really imagine asking most people my age and under 30 if they would rather a high rise apartment as their home for life after growing up with a front and back garden in suburban Dublin ? Im speaking personally but I'd be surprised if most of the people I grew up with didn't share the same desire for a suburban life in he future.

It's true - there's something nice about being able to potter around in your own garden, have your little pond with frogs and fish and your flowers and the odd vegetable and a place for the kids and the dog to romp.

It's something ingrained in us in Ireland all right, but friends in Paris find it completely normal to grow up in apartments and use the parks as their play space. But then they have some fabulous parks - one I love near Porte Maillot has iron table-tennis tables along it where you always see kids playing, as well as the more usual playground things, and sculptures, and different styles of gardens going for a couple of kilometres along an old rail line. When the surface rail was replaced with RER, it was made into a linear park, unlike Dublin where it would probably have been made another road crammed with fume-spewing cars and buses and trucks.

CaptainR · 10-01-2017 01:16PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Trees in a city are wonderful. This land was covered in nature long before we came and living close to nature studies have found is beneficial to our health and makes the city a lovely place. New York City is all the more better with Madison Square Garden.

The boxing and hockey arena?

Widdershins · 10-01-2017 01:58PM

Johnboner wrote: »

10 storeys? Won't help much. There should be no limit, there should be 100 storey buildings if required the reason for not allowing to build tall buildings is absolutely ridiculous.

I'd imagne that would be cold and dreary because of the sun being obscured.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-01-2017 02:06PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

Is it because there simply isn't room for people to personalise their space, compared to estates built in the 60s. I grew up in a D14 suburban estate (still the family home) and it was relatively boring at the time. Now, though, it has a degree of character, as little by little my parent's peers added extensions, porches, a garage (or converted the one that was there), a wider drive, or a second house in the corner garden.

That was possible because they had a decent separation between their house and the one next-door. My two sisters have middle of the road semi-d's and barely enough room to squeeze the wheelie bin down the side of the house, so any modifications they've done are limited to internal changes or sacrificing half the back garden for an extra bit of kitchen, none of which can be seen from out the front.

I think it's more the lack of any focal point. No village, town, main street or anything like that. Also, because of the lack of facilities - schools, library, community centre and so on, people tend to spend most of their time in their cars, travelling to other areas for these amenities. That's a big problem with newer suburbs. Houses and apartments are thrown up, and then the developers move on. It should be mandatory to provide certain facilities, and to build a 'place of community', not just an 'estate'.

seamus · 10-01-2017 02:17PM

Chuchote wrote: »

It's true - there's something nice about being able to potter around in your own garden, have your little pond with frogs and fish and your flowers and the odd vegetable and a place for the kids and the dog to romp.

This is the thing. Most people don't do this.

Many people are attached to this sentimental idea of having a garden, but then don't use it very much. Run the mower over it 4 times in the summer, put a shabby paving stone path leading to the shed and bring some beach chairs out into the sun twice a year.

A half-decent balcony will do the same thing and save you on maintenance.

An apartment living culture has a bit of a "build it..." strategy necessary. We don't have a lot of good quality apartments for long-term living. Good big ones are out on the edge of nowhere and you have to drive everywhere, or it's a pokey 1/2-bed in the city centre that's great for a young person but no good for a family.

If we built more large apartments (3-bed+) in the city centre, people would come to realise that having a garden isn't all its cracked up to be, and an apartment culture would slowly build.

But without high-rise, building apartments is about cramming in as many as you can within the tiny box the city council will let you build.

jobbridge4life · 10-01-2017 02:38PM

Obsession with owning a house and also owning a car is part of the problem IMHO. A large swathe of Irish people just will not consider apartments as being equal to a house, you could show them a well built, well proportioned apartment with great access to local amenities and they'd still consider it inferior to a cardboard house in some cul-de-sac 50km from Dublin.

Of course this issue is exacerbated by the dearth of truly livable apartments in the city.

wakka12 · 10-01-2017 02:57PM

Chuchote wrote: »

If we wanted, say, to make Dublin have the best of Paris and Berlin, we'd need to knock down great swathes of the city centre to build broader streets lined with five-storey solid redbrick apartment blocks, with apartments with the square footage of 3-bed semis, and with large garden parks.

Trying to build high in narrow Dublin streets would just result in dark, miserable canyons.

And if we want a city centre that's vibrant and alive we'd need to make the city cyclable rather than concentrating on cars. Where people cycle, and where there are safe parking facilities for bicycles, you get local shops and cafes and a local community where people talk to their neighbours and meet them in those shops and cafes and cinemas and libraries and parks.

Where cars are used, we'd need multi-storey car parks integrated into the areas, so parked cars wouldn't take up a third of the roads the way they do now.

And we'd need a mix of social classes - with good social housing like the HLMs in the central arrondissements of Paris, which are indistinguishable from private housing and which are inhabited by a mix of well-off and struggling people. None of the ghettoisation that now happens in Dublin, where in some cases good tenants who would lift a whole flatblock are driving out by effective one-extended-family control of the block.

Dark narrow streets with tall buildings on each side don't have to be depressing. Ever visited the barcelona gothic quarter? Its probably the most beautiful place Ive ever visited and sunlight doesn't reach street level through the tall surrounding apartment blocks even when the sun is at its highest point even in summer

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-01-2017 03:05PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Obsession with owning a house and also owning a car is part of the problem IMHO. A large swathe of Irish people just will not consider apartments as being equal to a house, you could show them a well built, well proportioned apartment with great access to local amenities and they'd still consider it inferior to a cardboard house in some cul-de-sac 50km from Dublin.

Of course this issue is exacerbated by the dearth of truly livable apartments in the city.

I totally agree. A lot of apartments actually have more floor space than some newer houses. Likewise gardens in a lot of new houses are absolutely tiny and come with no privacy whatsoever.

In fact, a huge amount of new houses are really just glorified apartments - teensy sitting rooms with galley kitchens, no proper hallways, a 'bathroom' that can only fit a shower, and only one decent sized bedroom - the others barely able to fit anything except the bed. But because they have a staircase and a couple of feet of space out the back, people will pay a lot more for them.

milli milli · 10-01-2017 03:29PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Dark narrow streets with tall buildings on each side don't have to be depressing. Ever visited the barcelona gothic quarter? Its probably the most beautiful place Ive ever visited and sunlight doesn't reach street level through the tall surrounding apartment blocks even when the sun is at its highest point even in summer

Irish housing design & planning is different from a place like Barcelona.
We try to make the most of the sunlight & heat as we get so little of it, whereas a place like Barcelona needs relief & shelter from the sun as it's a sunny climate.

Electric Sheep · 10-01-2017 03:32PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I'd imagne that would be cold and dreary because of the sun being obscured.

It's already cold and dreary, and the sun is obscured by the clouds most of the time.

Suburb after suburb after suburb...

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