Louise O Neill on rape culture.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-01-2017 11:22PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

What’s your favourite post of yours?
I go on political rants every now and again, especially on my Facebook page, and I enjoy them. I’m not so sure how everyone else feels about them though…. I wrote about the UCD 500 story in February and the amount of people reading, liking, and re-sharing that post was unprecedented for me. It did generate a lot of trolling but that seems to be the price many women have to pay for daring to be political on social media.

I thought the only trol in all of that was Louise herself.

mzungu · 06-01-2017 11:41PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Back on topic-this...

http://www.thejournal.ie/louise-onei...urce=shortlink

And this doozy...keep in mind this is MONTHS after it was proven completely false

Ah yes, the UCD "scandal". Irelands very own contribution to fake news in 2016.

Widdershins · 06-01-2017 11:55PM

The fact that she has no shame about propagating fake news and the mindless manner in which hundreds of people took her word for it and re-shared her posts..amazing!

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 12:00AM

mzungu wrote: »

Ah yes, the UCD "scandal". Irelands very own contribution to fake news in 2016.

And the worst thing is...how many male students of UCD were essentially labelled sex offenders and perverts based on a false allegation that ran in the college newspaper and then 'leaked' to the media?

Like, crud like that sticks, one false allegation can stain you.

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 12:01AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

This is excellent and from someone who has been raped themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3_ty5jKkX0

She's articulated a lot of my thoughts on the subject. I wouldn't be of the libertarian persuasion but she's bang on there.

Essentially why I feel so tired with the whole thing at present is the hyperbole, the lack of nuance, and the lack of practical support out there.

I've never been so fed up with the current discourse on all sides as I am at present. Common sense, facts, measured reasoning are sorely lacking. And the thing is it's actually courageous to take the middle ground now, to be reasonable, because things have gotten so poisonous online.

Also I think Outlaw Pete you mentioned Last Tango in Paris? I've been listening to the excellent You Must Remember This podcast, which is all about old Hollywood, and there's an episode on it, made back in 2014 (!) the assault is mentioned, it was common knowledge for years, or at least in the public domain. Brando or Bertolucci never denied it either, so I'm not sure why people are getting the idea that it was a matter of society ignoring Maria Schneider. People just didn't care as far as I can see... which was awful, don't get me wrong, but I think it was a recognition that the film industry, especially arthouse, was so outside the normal bounds of society that no-one was surprised.

I don't think there's any other industry which had the blurred lines, extreme personalities and substance abuse that the entertainment industry had in the past. I don't think we can apply what was acceptable there as a broad generalisation of normal society.

Ulysses Gaze · 07-01-2017 12:20AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Back on topic-this...

http://www.thejournal.ie/louise-oneill-twitter-interview-3151701-Dec2016/?utm_source=shortlink

And this doozy...keep in mind this is MONTHS after it was proven completely false, but she calls it 'trolling'...yeah, providing evidence that a story was false is trolling...

What’s your favourite post of yours?
I go on political rants every now and again, especially on my Facebook page, and I enjoy them. I’m not so sure how everyone else feels about them though…. I wrote about the UCD 500 story in February and the amount of people reading, liking, and re-sharing that post was unprecedented for me. It did generate a lot of trolling but that seems to be the price many women have to pay for daring to be political on social media.

So by her logic proving someone is not guilty is providing evidence that they 'are' guilty?

Come on LON, you're 31, not 16.

No mention of the fact the story was fake - all emphasis on the reading, liking and re-sharing of her post.

She's a narcissist stuck in emotional arrested development.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 12:25AM

Widdershins wrote: »

The fact that she has no shame about propagating fake news and the mindless manner in which hundreds of people took her word for it and re-shared her posts..amazing!

That she keeps doing it, without any care for ruined lives, and already proven false allegations shows how potentially dangerous her mindset is.
If she wonders why rape allegations are often called into question, or disbelieved...it's because of this. Propagating false allegations as fact, when proven false, is just absolutely damaging to genuine victims of sexual assault and rape.
Women in politics-great, fine, all the more power to anyone who chooses to help their community-and means it.

Women discussing politics with false allegations and no evidence...wait, any gender discussing politics with false allegations and no evidence...no, that's not right. Not right at all. It's criminal, in my eyes.

Like, there was a recent article in the Irish Independent, during the Johnny Depp/ Amber Heard divorce where one of the opinion peaces painted a damning picture of Depp, and all without any evidence(this was following Heard's claims Depp was abusive). She cited a former quote from Ryder where Ryder had said 'her first boyfriend was abusive' and the columnist said, since Depp was Ryder's first boyfriend, he had been abusive with Ryder...yet weeks later, Ryder stated, openly, that Depp had never been abusive with her, and she was shocked by the allegations against Depp.
If that article had been published in the US, that article would have landed said columnist in jail. Sean Penn sued for lesser comments.

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 12:28AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

And the worst thing is...how many male students of UCD were essentially labelled sex offenders and perverts based on a false allegation that ran in the college newspaper and then 'leaked' to the media?

Like, crud like that sticks, one false allegation can stain you.

I'm fairly sure that it hasn't been widely disproven, in that, I think LON or possibly someone else wrote a piece saying "well it can't be proven but it's PROBABLY true."

Mud sticks as you say, and it'll probably follow those boys around.

Also I hadn't realised that in the States the colleges deal with sexual assault cases prior to handing them to the police? Not sure if my understanding is correct. If that's the case it's cracked. It's a criminal matter and should only be dealt with by police and courts. No wonder the colleges **** up in that case. My own university couldn't organise a semester 2 timetable, let alone an investigation into sexual assault.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 12:30AM

ivytwine wrote: »

She's articulated a lot of my thoughts on the subject. I wouldn't be of the libertarian persuasion but she's bang on there.

Essentially why I feel so tired with the whole thing at present is the hyperbole, the lack of nuance, and the lack of practical support out there.

I've never been so fed up with the current discourse on all sides as I am at present. Common sense, facts, measured reasoning are sorely lacking. And the thing is it's actually courageous to take the middle ground now, to be reasonable, because things have gotten so poisonous online.

Also I think Outlaw Pete you mentioned Last Tango in Paris? I've been listening to the excellent You Must Remember This podcast, which is all about old Hollywood, and there's an episode on it, made back in 2014 (!) the assault is mentioned, it was common knowledge for years, or at least in the public domain. Brando or Bertolucci never denied it either, so I'm not sure why people are getting the idea that it was a matter of society ignoring Maria Schneider. People just didn't care as far as I can see... which was awful, don't get me wrong, but I think it was a recognition that the film industry, especially arthouse, was so outside the normal bounds of society that no-one was surprised.

I don't think there's any other industry which had the blurred lines, extreme personalities and substance abuse that the entertainment industry had in the past. I don't think we can apply what was acceptable there as a broad generalisation of normal society.

Yes, the assault was known-but it wasn't an assault. The scene, as written, went as planned-the sex was simulated, there was no 'sex'. The only addition to the scene was the butter. Schneider did not know about the butter.

The director articulated this days after the 'allegation' suffered again.But the media does not want to publish that story. They just want to propagate a 'he raped her, Brando was a rapist'...
She was 19, still young to the industry, and as a young actress, open to ideas. He didn't rape her tho.

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 12:43AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

That she keeps doing it, without any care for ruined lives, and already proven false allegations shows how potentially dangerous her mindset is.
If she wonders why rape allegations are often called into question, or disbelieved...it's because of this. Propagating false allegations as fact, when proven false, is just absolutely damaging to genuine victims of sexual assault and rape.
Women in politics-great, fine, all the more power to anyone who chooses to help their community-and means it.

Women discussing politics with false allegations and no evidence...wait, any gender discussing politics with false allegations and no evidence...no, that's not right. Not right at all. It's criminal, in my eyes.

Like, there was a recent article in the Irish Independent, during the Johnny Depp/ Amber Heard divorce where one of the opinion peaces painted a damning picture of Depp, and all without any evidence(this was following Heard's claims Depp was abusive). She cited a former quote from Ryder where Ryder had said 'her first boyfriend was abusive' and the columnist said, since Depp was Ryder's first boyfriend, he had been abusive with Ryder...yet weeks later, Ryder stated, openly, that Depp had never been abusive with her, and she was shocked by the allegations against Depp.
If that article had been published in the US, that article would have landed said columnist in jail. Sean Penn sued for lesser comments.

And the evidence against Penn is a lot stronger. The Johnny Depp one was interesting because there was a definite element of wishful thinking among a lot of women as he was a heartthrob. But the fact that the woman he left for Heard defended him when she could have stayed silent speaks volumes.

Perhaps he was abusive to Heard, we're unlikely to know for sure.

I think the Examiner, which can be *really* sloppy about stuff at the best of times, is still adjusting to the fact that its content is available now to a worldwide audience. Not that long ago it could have published an article alleging Depp is a domestic abuser and unless he was on holiday in Ballydehob it would have never been brought to his attention. There's also the assumption that celebs are fair game, or aren't real people.

Likewise I don't think LON sees the UCD boys as real people, but rather akin to the villains in her novel. But as someone who grew up in rural Ireland should know, the rumour mill is usually full of ****e, and nothing was ever proven- nor any evidence found. Instead those lads will have to wonder about whether listing their course on their CV will stop them getting a job, because they're actual real humans.

mzungu · 07-01-2017 12:43AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

And the worst thing is...how many male students of UCD were essentially labelled sex offenders and perverts based on a false allegation that ran in the college newspaper and then 'leaked' to the media?

Like, crud like that sticks, one false allegation can stain you.

A few hundred male students in the faculty IIRC. Whomever wrote the original piece in the college newspaper had heard off one of their mates who heard from somebody else that there was a private group on FB with 200 male students from Ag Sci engaging in revenge porn ring. It took on a life of its own after that. I have no idea if the media became aware of it via the college article or through talk of it on social media.

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 12:48AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes, the assault was known-but it wasn't an assault. The scene, as written, went as planned-the sex was simulated, there was no 'sex'. The only addition to the scene was the butter. Schneider did not know about the butter.

The director articulated this days after the 'allegation' suffered again.But the media does not want to publish that story. They just want to propagate a 'he raped her, Brando was a rapist'...
She was 19, still young to the industry, and as a young actress, open to ideas. He didn't rape her tho.

Yeah you're right, I meant the butter thing. It's late!

She did feel terrible about it for the rest of her life though, and felt violated. To put it mildly, it was not a very nice thing for Bertolucci to have done. But yeah not rape. I just can't understand why it's becoming such a big deal now though. It's been known for years.

If it's any consolation to the Twitter outrage machine, Brando felt **** after the film too!

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 12:49AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that it hasn't been widely disproven, in that, I think LON or possibly someone else wrote a piece saying "well it can't be proven but it's PROBABLY true."

Mud sticks as you say, and it'll probably follow those boys around.

Also I hadn't realised that in the States the colleges deal with sexual assault cases prior to handing them to the police? Not sure if my understanding is correct. If that's the case it's cracked. It's a criminal matter and should only be dealt with by police and courts. No wonder the colleges **** up in that case. My own university couldn't organise a semester 2 timetable, let alone an investigation into sexual assault.

Well, the gardai concluded their investigation with a 'we have no evidence, we spoke to a lot of people, we found nothing'...and for me, that shows it never happened.

Even the email from the college said as much.

https://www.joe.ie/news/ucd-the-revenge-porn-facebook-page-was-all-unsubstantiated-hearsay/530849

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 12:57AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Well, the gardai concluded their investigation with a 'we have no evidence, we spoke to a lot of people, we found nothing'...and for me, that shows it never happened.

Even the email from the college said as much.

https://www.joe.ie/news/ucd-the-revenge-porn-facebook-page-was-all-unsubstantiated-hearsay/530849

That's a fairly strong statement by UCD. I didn't see this shared widely or if at all. I wonder how many of those who believed the original story have seen this. People had already moved on to the next thing to get outraged over. That's the problem- a lie can get around the world before the truth can get its boots on.
It's especially reprehensible that LON boasts about the traffic she got for a fake news story which has damaged reputations, and worse that nobody is challenging her.

mzungu · 07-01-2017 12:58AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that it hasn't been widely disproven, in that, I think LON or possibly someone else wrote a piece saying "well it can't be proven but it's PROBABLY true."

Mud sticks as you say, and it'll probably follow those boys around.

Also I hadn't realised that in the States the colleges deal with sexual assault cases prior to handing them to the police? Not sure if my understanding is correct. If that's the case it's cracked. It's a criminal matter and should only be dealt with by police and courts. No wonder the colleges **** up in that case. My own university couldn't organise a semester 2 timetable, let alone an investigation into sexual assault.

That was the general feeling of some vested interests in the aftermath. The innuendo continued as it was felt that most likely these 200 students had deleted all evidence of the group and were all staying silent on the matter. Think of that for a second, 200 people (1/3 or 1/4 of an entire faculty), most of whom don't know each other, managed to successfully get every member of the group to delete pictures and take an omertà like code of silence to not talk about this private group? Some people don't have to go to bed to dream!

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 01:02AM

ivytwine wrote: »

And the evidence against Penn is a lot stronger. The Johnny Depp one was interesting because there was a definite element of wishful thinking among a lot of women as he was a heartthrob. But the fact that the woman he left for Heard defended him when she could have stayed silent speaks volumes.

Perhaps he was abusive to Heard, we're unlikely to know for sure.

I think the Examiner, which can be *really* sloppy about stuff at the best of times, is still adjusting to the fact that its content is available now to a worldwide audience. Not that long ago it could have published an article alleging Depp is a domestic abuser and unless he was on holiday in Ballydehob it would have never been brought to his attention. There's also the assumption that celebs are fair game, or aren't real people.

Likewise I don't think LON sees the UCD boys as real people, but rather akin to the villains in her novel. But as someone who grew up in rural Ireland should know, the rumour mill is usually full of ****e, and nothing was ever proven- nor any evidence found. Instead those lads will have to wonder about whether listing their course on their CV will stop them getting a job, because they're actual real humans.

Yes, but the claims against Penn-that he tied up and beat Madonna, have already been refuted, by Madonna.

I have no doubt there was verbal abuse, but nothing physical-that said, there was more evidence of her being abusive (An ex girlfriend of hers in 2009) than there was of him. But some people really wanted to see him fall. I'm glad he didn't, but he's fighting back against her now, in the courts. So the ugly divorce continues. (It's funny how Mel Gibson gets more chances at redemption, despite him being an absolute cur at times).
But to be honest, I think their entire relationship was toxic.

Oh their sloppiness is unreal-O'Neill's articles don't take into account that 'Anyone' can read her stuff, anyone...including her parents, or exes. Her recent 'some people want to see you fail'...was just...it was like a teenager wrote it. But journalism here in Ireland...it can be really dodgy. When you see the ramblings of Holly Carpenter being printed in the indo, and lampooned on twitter, you just sit there and wonder 'what the absolute f***!'. Most journalism now is 'copy and paste twitter posts'...or one egregious 'interview' with an Irish comic was robbed, entirely, from Jarlath Regan's podcast. Without his permission.

RayM · 07-01-2017 01:03AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Well, the gardai concluded their investigation with a 'we have no evidence, we spoke to a lot of people, we found nothing'...and for me, that shows it never happened.

Even the email from the college said as much.

https://www.joe.ie/news/ucd-the-revenge-porn-facebook-page-was-all-unsubstantiated-hearsay/530849

The Gardai played no role in any investigation. UCD investigated it internally, over the course of two or three days, and nobody came forward with any proof that the Facebook group existed. Given that it was alleged to be a private, closed group, nobody would have been able to provide proof unless they were a member. And if it did exist, it is unlikely that anyone involved in such a group would be prepared to drop themselves and their friends in it.

Now I'm not saying that the group in question did or didn't exist, but less than one year earlier, there was a controversy surrounding the involvement of Ag Science students in a Facebook group entitled "Girls I'd shift if I was tipsy". And that group definitely existed.

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 01:16AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes, but the claims against Penn-that he tied up and beat Madonna, have already been refuted, by Madonna.

I have no doubt there was verbal abuse, but nothing physical-that said, there was more evidence of her being abusive (An ex girlfriend of hers in 2009) than there was of him. But some people really wanted to see him fall. I'm glad he didn't, but he's fighting back against her now, in the courts. So the ugly divorce continues. (It's funny how Mel Gibson gets more chances at redemption, despite him being an absolute cur at times).
But to be honest, I think their entire relationship was toxic.

Oh their sloppiness is unreal-O'Neill's articles don't take into account that 'Anyone' can read her stuff, anyone...including her parents, or exes. Her recent 'some people want to see you fail'...was just...it was like a teenager wrote it. But journalism here in Ireland...it can be really dodgy. When you see the ramblings of Holly Carpenter being printed in the indo, and lampooned on twitter, you just sit there and wonder 'what the absolute f***!'. Most journalism now is 'copy and paste twitter posts'...or one egregious 'interview' with an Irish comic was robbed, entirely, from Jarlath Regan's podcast. Without his permission.

Again we'll never know for certain, but I would be inclined to believe that Madonna might withdrawn her allegations under coercion- or the fact that she remained in love with him for a very very long time. The police reports are pretty disturbing.

I think there's definitely very little acknowledgement that some people just bring out the absolute worst in each other. Violence isn't justified ever, but it's not always black and white.

Mel Gibson... such an odd situation. And the stick Seth McFarlane got for pointing out that he was anti-Semitic was mental. Hollywood is a strange, strange place.

I trained to be a journalist and to be honest it's not the most talented or intelligent that succeed. Sometimes it's just the ones who'll stick at it no matter how ****e it gets. Irish media is in dire straits, it really is. But it's not helped by the fact that the circles are so small. Even I'd be reluctant to criticise LON too openly as it's not a million miles beyond possibility that I'd run into her. We already have mutual Facebook friends. So it's all back scratching, unless you're an isolated crank living in the wilds like Kevin Myers, or you just don't give a ****e like Gene Kerrigan.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 01:17AM

RayM wrote: »

The Gardai played no role in any investigation. UCD investigated it internally, over the course of two or three days, and nobody came forward with any proof that the Facebook group existed. Given that it was alleged to be a private, closed group, nobody would have been able to provide proof unless they were a member. And if it did exist, it is unlikely that anyone involved in such a group would be prepared to drop themselves and their friends in it.

Now I'm not saying that the group in question did or didn't exist, but less than one year earlier, there was a controversy surrounding the involvement of Ag Science students in a Facebook group entitled "Girls I'd shift if I was tipsy". And that group definitely existed.

Well, as the email notes, there was also a picture put up of a model in a swimsuit, taken from a web page-but she wasn't in the college.

Yet as John Power notes-not a single victim came forward either. Okay, say for example, 200 students slept with two girls each...you're telling me that not even 1 out of 400 girls would come forward? Not one?

But no, that tale doesn't matter to people. They want to vilify people. When 'her.ie' said it didn't even matter if it was true or not...well, sorry, that's a dangerous ideology. It's 'judge, jury and executioner' in one article.

The 'girls id shift' guy got elected to the UCDSU, and that happened months before the UCD 200 story-less than a year to be precise. So I can imagine that may have triggered such a tale...but notably, and to further disprove the UCD200 tale...that group could be seen, viewed, and accessed. So there was evidence there, no doubt about that.
There was no evidence of a slut shaming page.

mzungu · 07-01-2017 01:28AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I trained to be a journalist and to be honest it's not the most talented or intelligent that succeed. Sometimes it's just the ones who'll stick at it no matter how ****e it gets. Irish media is in dire straits, it really is. But it's not helped by the fact that the circles are so small. Even I'd be reluctant to criticise LON too openly as it's not a million miles beyond possibility that I'd run into her. We already have mutual Facebook friends. So it's all back scratching, unless you're an isolated crank living in the wilds like Kevin Myers, or you just don't give a ****e like Gene Kerrigan.

Aye, add to this the amount of nepotism thrown into the mix in Irish media circles makes it nigh on pretty darn hard to break through and earn a living off it.

RayM · 07-01-2017 01:41AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yet as John Power notes-not a single victim came forward either. Okay, say for example, 200 students slept with two girls each...you're telling me that not even 1 out of 400 girls would come forward? Not one?

I'm not telling you anything. I'm not even trying to prove that the Facebook group existed. If it did exist, and was a closed, private group - accessible only to invited members - there is no way that any of the women in question would have known about it. Therefore, how could they have come forward?

RabbleRouser2k wrote:

The 'girls id shift' guy got elected to the UCDSU, and that happened months before the UCD 200 story-less than a year to be precise. So I can imagine that may have triggered such a tale...but notably, and to further disprove the UCD200 tale...that group could be seen, viewed, and accessed. So there was evidence there, no doubt about that.
There was no evidence of a slut shaming page.

The 'Girls I'd shift' group could be seen, viewed and accessed by anyone until it was mentioned in the University Observer - at which point it was hastily deleted. I'm not sure how that disproves the existence of any subsequent groups. Its existence shows that there was a pre-existing culture and that such a group would hardly be unprecedented. Had it not existed, I don't think the 'UCD200' story would have taken off the way it did.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 02:02AM

RayM wrote: »

I'm not telling you anything. I'm not even trying to prove that the Facebook group existed. If it did exist, and was a closed, private group - accessible only to invited members - there is no way that any of the women in question would have known about it. Therefore, how could they have come forward?

The 'Girls I'd shift' group could be seen, viewed and accessed by anyone until it was mentioned in the University Observer - at which point it was hastily deleted. I'm not sure how that disproves the existence of any subsequent groups. Its existence shows that there was a pre-existing culture and that such a group would hardly be unprecedented. Had it not existed, I don't think the 'UCD200' story would have taken off the way it did.

The 'you're telling me' was rhetorical, sorry about that.
The way folks would figure it out is because there is always one idiot out there who blabs-or makes a 'sordid' comment to those depicted. Again, 200 members (or 500 if you're LON) would easily 'share' those photos. People share fb messages all the time-it only takes one 'hey, do you have the picture of....' and then send it on, and there is the evidence.
As does a fake fb account-which again, is easy to do.

I mean, look how quickly that Tyrone footballer was outed after he filmed gay porn. And that was only weeks later. These things get out pretty quickly.

Even an 'anonymous' screengrab, or screenshot, is all one needs-and I was surprised someone didn't photoshop something for a simple slice of 'evidence'.
Nothing.

Outlaw Pete · 07-01-2017 04:32AM

Re: the whole UCD 200 debacle..

Louise came out with a lot of waffle around that time but one of the most infuriating things which she said was in response to it being put to her that photos of naked male students sometimes get passed around without consent also:

"You really can't compare the two as female nudity and male nudity are treated in such different way. Male nudity won't have the same negative impact on a man's social standing.

"There isn't the same amount of shame attached to male sexuality as there is to female sexuality. We have been shamed and silenced for hundreds of years and we carry that history with us.

"There is no point in comparing the two as the impact and the consequences are completely unequal for men and women for having photos shared."

And yet Louise tells us young men today need feminism.... ha! Like a hole in the bloody head they need it.

The above quote was taken from a radio interview Louise gave around the time the UCD 200 story broke and when she was publicly back slapping herself any opportunity she could get (when she wasn't too busy screaming in cottages out in the sticks that is). You can listen to the interview here.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-01-2017 05:57AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Re: the whole UCD 200 debacle..

Louise came out with a lot of waffle around that time but one of the most infuriating things which she said was in response to it being put to her that photos of naked male students sometimes get passed around without consent also:

And yet Louise tells us young men today need feminism.... ha! Like a hole in the bloody head they need it.

The above quote was taken from a radio interview Louise gave around the time the UCD 200 story broke and when she was publicly back slapping herself any opportunity she could get (when she wasn't too busy screaming in cottages out in the sticks that is). You can listen to the interview here.

I personally believe more and more people are seeing the emptyness of feminism-one study's feminism in college, realises that it's a hollow way of viewing the world (it's very easy to program one's mind out of it too, takes a short while, a week or so in total, completely) and then slowly but surely realises 'okay, there is some truth to this, SOME, but in total, it's full of short comings'. Like, the viewing of art that involves the human figure...be it male or female, feminists will likely think is the male gaze, but only with the female gaze.
Yet admiring beauty is just ingrained, it's totally biological, cannot be changed or controlled (even Freud knew that). Michaelangelo's David, the Pieta, and much more are just admired for their sheer beauty, a feat that somehow a human being managed to create. Yet in feminist ideology...it's crass.
Total BS I find.

Interesting point about nudity-notice how you had all these feminists freaking out over the 'fappening' yet when Justin Bieber and Orlando Bloom had nudes leaked...it was featured on the RTE website for crying out loud! Even got sent around twitter with the 'oh, those pics were taken in the open, they don't count'...well, Kate Middleton's pics were also in the open, and look how people freaked out over them too? We had all this 'don't print those pics', which a few papers did and told 'free speech'...and yet a guy its okay? Michael JAckson's dead body was printed on the front page of many papers, during the trial...like, that's a totally disgusting invasion of privacy.
I know a few of those who were 'featured' in the fappening just laughed it off-they weren't ashamed of their bodies. Kirsten Dunst just criticised iCloud, and another actress jokingly tweeted 'Happy Christmas!'.

Oh, and lets not forget how shamed Anthony Wiener was over his 'selfie' habit.

MAn, remember when 'Niamh Donnolly' from Fr Ted was an exaggerated parody? Who knew we would have an actual real life 'ND'?

Wibbs · 07-01-2017 09:08AM

RayM wrote: »

Had it not existed, I don't think the 'UCD200' story would have taken off the way it did.

Translation: "there is no smoke without fire". Brilliant. *slow handclap*

hatrickpatrick · 07-01-2017 09:19AM

RayM wrote: »

The 'Girls I'd shift' group could be seen, viewed and accessed by anyone until it was mentioned in the University Observer - at which point it was hastily deleted. I'm not sure how that disproves the existence of any subsequent groups. Its existence shows that there was a pre-existing culture and that such a group would hardly be unprecedented. Had it not existed, I don't think the 'UCD200' story would have taken off the way it did.

I personally don't see anything wrong with that one. Groups of men and groups of women have been having private discussions among themselves about members of the opposite sex that they'd like to get naked with since time immemorial. Unless people are actually being harassed, what exactly is the harm in people discussing who they find attractive? That's completely different to the idea of setting up a group with the intention of committing harassment or worse.

midnight city · 07-01-2017 09:35AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I trained to be a journalist.

Genuine question here, having been through college to train as a journalist why are they overwhelmingly liberal left in outlook?

ivytwine · 07-01-2017 09:47AM

midnight city wrote: »

Genuine question here, having been through college to train as a journalist why are they overwhelmingly liberal left in outlook?

I don't know that they are. I mean I'm pretty leftwing socially (liberal is yet another meaningless American import) but on crime etc I'd be a little bit more to the right. There was a fair old mix in my course, but trainee journalists are overwhelmingly female now, so that might have something to do with it.

My course was rubbish but we definitely didn't get pushed in one direction or the other. In fact we were taught that as long as your opinion was backed up by facts you could write what you want.

There are still plenty of right-leaning journos and papers. The most successful newspaper website is the Daily Mail after all.

Also there is a chilling effect in place because conditions are so poor for young journalists. For example if you're economically left (ie a socialist) I don't think you'd advertise it if you wanted to get a job with INM (who own so much of Ireland's media). So people who don't fit into the consensus will probably leave MSM. I don't like Ian O'Doherty or Kevin Myers but there's no young successors to those guys; they waited til they were established before they became controversialists.

Also LON isn't actually a trained journalist.

midnight city · 07-01-2017 09:51AM

I wonder does a lot of pressure to stay 'on message' come from the editors and the owners.

Wibbs · 07-01-2017 09:52AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Unless people are actually being harassed, what exactly is the harm in people discussing who they find attractive?

It seems it depends on who is doing the discussing. "Feminists" like O'Neill can wax lyrical about men they'd shag and that's fine, even encouraged, but woe betide if the waxing goes the other direction. Women are always victims, it's always men's fault. The level of hypocrisy with someone like O'Neill is quite staggering. As is the logic disconnect. Pure Chick Think(™).

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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