Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

Chaos Black · 05-01-2017 04:54PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Personally I never understood how Irish men and women could join a foreign army that could be deployed to Irish streets to quell or kill Irish men and women.
But they was always a cohort of Irish who had no problem with this. Glad to see the numbers so low currently.

Iirc, they were far more likely to be deployed throughout the dominion of the British Empire, which they at the time, were part of. Regardless of political stance on Irish nationalism or religious creed, it was a job that many Irish worked historically, as it fed the family.

05-01-2017 04:56PM

seamus wrote: »

Why not? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You can be loyal to multiple agents at the same time unless two of them are in conflict. Even then you're not betraying a loyalty unless you're directly acting against one of those agents. If the UK and Ireland were at war, but an Irishman was a member of the British Army and serving on the other side of the planet, completely disconnected from any Anglo-Irish conflict, then there's no issue.

You'll also note the use of the word "could be" in that paragraph from the US.

Even in the ultra-nationalist United States, you don't automatically lose citizenship for fighting in a foreign army against your own country.

Like I say, there is no logical nor established argument that a country can assume or demand to have the loyalty of its citizens.

In fact, one could argue that the crime of treachery is inherently anti-democratic because it doesn't allow for citizens to defend their nation against a corrupt government.

I specifically said a soldier in conflict didn't I? And it's a bit naive to think simply being removed from the conflict means there is no issue, simply by doing other duties you are freeing up other combat soldiers and involved

The US say could be, because they still want the option of trying you as a citizen with all the harsher penalties available if they catch you.

Like you say indeed

FrancieBrady · 05-01-2017 04:57PM

Chaos Black wrote: »

Iirc, they were far more likely to be deployed throughout the dominion of the British Empire, which they at the time, were part of. Regardless of political stance on Irish nationalism or religious creed, it was a job that many Irish worked historically, as it fed the family.

And deprived a good few Irish families of their bread winner over the decades.

I suppose it depends on the orientation of your moral compass, but there are some jobs I would not take regardless of my ambitions or needs.

osarusan · 05-01-2017 05:12PM

seamus wrote: »

Nobody had to swear allegiance to Ireland to get their Irish passport. So I don't see why swearing it to another country should cause you to lose it.

Naturalised citizens have an oath of fidelity to the state.

Cool_CM · 05-01-2017 05:23PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Swear away to anything that doesn't mean you could be ordered to fight against your state.

It's not that unusual a position, it is the law in Austria

Surely it's up to the person joining another nation's army to decide whether or not that is important to them. I'd imagine that, for their own well being, the armed forces in question would have the cop on not to assign somebody to an area where a possible conflict of interests would arise.

In this situation, I don't think that Austria makes the best of comparisons given that they generally do not allow for dual citizenship and that they still have compulsory military service. As far as I'm aware Austria (in all of its forms) never allowed for citizens to voluntarily join a foreign army. In terms of revoking citizenship, however, they did make an exception for anybody who volunteered their services to fight against the Third Reich.

It's also worth noting that until 1966, you also lost your Austrian citizenship if you served in a foreign civil service or automatically obtained the citizenship of a foreign national (specifically husband) through marriage.

Fratton Fred · 05-01-2017 05:26PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Even had Labour failed to take a single seat in Scotland, he'd still have been PM.

I really didn't think it was so controversial to suggest that England exerts control over the UK. Bear in mind this stems from a one poster calling another a 'clown' for having the temerity to casually refer the the British Armed Forces as the "English Army". Seriously like.

it is factually not true though. The British Armed forced come from all walks of British life.

You try telling these lads they are in the English army http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/33379.aspx

(hint: it might be worth doing this from a great distance)

Del.Monte · 05-01-2017 05:27PM

Jayop wrote: »

I see a few of the usual t**lls are here to try to get bites so I'm outa here.

Pot and kettle...

FrancieBrady · 05-01-2017 05:35PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Pot and kettle...

Presumably, a 't..ll' in Jayop's opinion is somebody on an Irish forum who has a problem with the historical record of a foreign army on Irish soil.
How this 'army' has come to be seen as a benign career path by some Irish people is actually quite flabbergasting.

Maximus Alexander · 05-01-2017 05:38PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it is factually not true though. The British Armed forced come from all walks of British life.

You try telling these lads they are in the English army http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/33379.aspx

(hint: it might be worth doing this from a great distance)

I'm sure those lads are well aware that their nation is not sovereign and that the lion's share of the power lies in England. The nationality of the individual soldiers is not really relevant to that. Is this actually an offensive thing I'm saying? I genuinely wouldn't have thought so.

A Little Pony · 05-01-2017 05:41PM

Many Irish joined the Army as they hated the IRA as much as the next man. Good luck to them, everyone has to pay bills and put food on the table. I don't judge any man for doing what he can to provide for his family and himself.

Professor Moriarty · 05-01-2017 05:41PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many Irish joined the Army as they hated the IRA as much as the next man. Good luck to them, everyone has to pay bills and put food on the table. I don't judge any man for doing what he can to provide for his family and himself.

No, they didn't.

FrancieBrady · 05-01-2017 05:44PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many Irish joined the Army as they hated the IRA as much as the next man. Good luck to them, everyone has to pay bills and put food on the table. I don't judge any man for doing what he can to provide for his family and himself.

There were not too many IRA killed on Bloody Sunday or in Ballymurphy or in numerous other incidents of only the most recent conflict were children and civilians were killed. And it now is emerging/or worthy of inquiry many of these may not have been an accident, with collusion with an indigenous faction, loyal to British rule seems likely.
Benign force alright!

Fratton Fred · 05-01-2017 05:44PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'm sure those lads are well aware that their nation is not sovereign and that the lion's share of the power lies in England. The nationality of the individual soldiers is not really relevant to that. Is this actually an offensive thing I'm saying? I genuinely wouldn't have thought so.

Their nation? Britain? of which Scotland makes up a significant part? That is sovereign, unless you are a Brexiter I suppose.

I would imagine the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish in the British Army would find it very offensive.

A Little Pony · 05-01-2017 05:52PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many Irish joined the Army as they hated the IRA as much as the next man. Good luck to them, everyone has to pay bills and put food on the table. I don't judge any man for doing what he can to provide for his family and himself.

There were not too many IRA killed on Bloody Sunday or in Ballymurphy or in numerous other incidents of only the most recent conflict were children and civilians were killed. And it now is emerging/or worthy of inquiry many of these may not have been an accident, with collusion with an indigenous faction, loyal to British rule seems likely.
Benign force alright!

Many didn't like them. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to join the Garda or British Army.

Professor Moriarty · 05-01-2017 05:54PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many didn't like them. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to join the Garda or British Army.

Yes, of course. Because joining the BA is the same as becoming a Garda. Life is simple, isn't it?

Hanwellian · 05-01-2017 05:54PM

To be fair, the vast majority of personnel in the British Army would never and have never seen any combat.

There are many jobs within the Army, saying that ( if you could get into it ) the RAF would offer some really good trades and these qualifications and experience are sought by employers when they leave the service. Hypothetically, if Ireland were attacked, who do you think would be coming to your defence?

FrancieBrady · 05-01-2017 05:58PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes, of course. Because joining the BA is the same as becoming a Garda. Life is simple, isn't it?

It would be a great defence for joining the UVF or any other loyalist paramilitary group too.

A Little Pony · 05-01-2017 06:00PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many didn't like them. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to join the Garda or British Army.

Yes, of course. Because joining the BA is the same as becoming a Garda. Life is simple, isn't it?

Why not? Irish people join both in large enough numbers. Remember the UK are allies with Ireland now.

Professor Moriarty · 05-01-2017 06:03PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Why not? Irish people join both in large enough numbers. Remember the UK are allies with Ireland now.

Cop yourself on.

A Little Pony · 05-01-2017 06:05PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Why not? Irish people join both in large enough numbers. Remember the UK are allies with Ireland now.

Cop yourself on.

What is wrong with being allies?

The_Valeyard · 05-01-2017 06:06PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Like Belfast? Or Derry?

I'm thinking Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Birmingham.

FTA69 · 05-01-2017 06:26PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it is factually not true though. The British Armed forced come from all walks of British life.

You try telling these lads they are in the English army http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/33379.aspx

(hint: it might be worth doing this from a great distance)

Meh, the Scottish regiments were the biggest tossers out of them all.

Falthyron · 05-01-2017 06:42PM

votecounts wrote: »

The majority will only advance to a body bag all for a foreign army, do anything else to advance like a course,work placement, etc

As opposed to slaving away accumulating back problems, general health problems, working in an office for a foreign company making millions while you struggle to pay your taxes, only to die of a heart-attack in your 50s?

Armies today do a lot more than point a gun and shoot, or be shot.

Junkyard Tom · 05-01-2017 06:44PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Many Irish joined the Army

Before the troubles a lot of young Catholics from the six counties joined the BA because they couldn't get work in the once sectarian shithole you call home. They were a valuable asset to the PIRA when they got out.

WUMs aside, I think there should be consequences for any Irish citizen who joins a foreign army (especially the one that caused so much misery on this island). They should be excluded from working in the civil service for a start.

Faith+1 · 05-01-2017 06:46PM

They have a policy of sending the Irish in the first wave.... think it's called Operation Human Shield

Junkyard Tom · 05-01-2017 06:47PM

Faith+1 wrote: »

They have a policy of sending the Irish in the first wave.... think it's called Operation Human Shield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqJwD35wWhY

Professor Moriarty · 05-01-2017 06:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It would be a great defence for joining the UVF or any other loyalist paramilitary group too.

Let us not forget the UDR. Or the FCA. Same thing now that we're allies, apparently.

Falthyron · 05-01-2017 06:49PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

WUMs aside, I think there should be consequences for any Irish citizen who joins a foreign army (especially the one that caused so much misery on this island). They should be excluded from working in the civil service for a start.

Are you serious? Irish men/women who work in a highly-regarded, well-trained, service should be denied the opportunity to bring back their knowledge and help to improve our own service? This is what is wrong with this country. Everything is parochial and we are unwilling to think outside the box. Should we do the same to Irish men/women who go and work for the U.K. government or their civil service? The same system 'that caused so much misery on this island'?

Are you aware of the fact that Irish men led European and British armies long before the First World War? At a time when ability, experience, and merit mattered more than the geographical location of their birth. We should be hiring the brightest and best to help this country move forward, not rejecting them for their 'transgressions' based on parocial, myopic, and ignorant criteria.

Didas · 05-01-2017 06:50PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Before the troubles a lot of young Catholics from the six counties joined the BA because they couldn't get work in the once sectarian shithole you call home. They were a valuable asset to the PIRA when they got out.

WUMs aside, I think there should be consequences for any Irish citizen who joins a foreign army (especially the one that caused so much misery on this island). They should be excluded from working in the civil service for a start.

The British Army won't be attacking the Bogside any time soon. The Troubles are over almost 20 years, let people move on.

I'd completely respect and understand an Irish person not joining the Bristish Army, or even wearing a poppy, based on their history here, but at the same time anyone going to get a job with the BA in modern times should be equally free from negative judgement.

FrancieBrady · 05-01-2017 06:54PM

Falthyron wrote: »

Are you serious? Irish men/women who work in a highly-regarded, well-trained, service should be denied the opportunity to bring back their knowledge and help to improve our own service? This is what is wrong with this country. Everything is parochial and we are unwilling to think outside the box. Should we do the same to Irish men/women who go and work for the U.K. government or their civil service? The same system 'that caused so much misery on this island'?

Are you aware of the fact that Irish men led European and British armies long before the First World War? At a time when ability, experience, and merit mattered more than the geographical location of their birth. We should be hiring the brightest and best to help this country move forward, not rejecting them for their 'transgressions' based on parocial, myopic, and ignorant criteria.

There is no doubt that Irishmen have served in the British army. Even when they were killing and suppressing Irish people.
Some Irish will always do this.

Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

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