Calls to slash the top rate of tax for Irish workers by a huge 7%

Hollister11 · 03-01-2017 2:03pm #1

https://fora.ie/ireland-marginal-tax-rate-cut-3163822-Dec2016/

The Small Firms Association wants the marginal tax rate cut from 52% to 45%.

In its end of year statement issued today, the Small Firms Association (SFA), which represents over 8,500 small businesses in Ireland, also called on the government to increase the entry point for the marginal rate of tax.

As it stands, the the marginal rate kicks in at €34,000. Ireland’s headline marginal tax rate is 52% for earnings above €70,044, one of the highest in the OECD.

I think this would be fantastic. The rate of tax is ridiculous. If you gross 100k, you only net 60K. Hardly fair.

Stheno · 03-01-2017 2:07pm

Hollister11 wrote: »

https://fora.ie/ireland-marginal-tax-rate-cut-3163822-Dec2016/

I think this would be fantastic. The rate of tax is ridiculous. If you gross 100k, you only net 40K. Hardly fair.

Eh no. If you gross 100k you net just over 60k
http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx

Thats not factoring in tax relief from the likes of pension contributions

Hollister11 · 03-01-2017 2:13pm

Stheno wrote: »

Eh no. If you gross 100k you net just over 60k
http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx

Thats not factoring in tax relief from the likes of pension contributions

Sorry meant 60K. It's still a disgusting amount of money to take off someone,

Stheno · 03-01-2017 2:15pm

Hollister11 wrote: »

Sorry meant 60K. It's still a disgusting amount of money to take off someone,

Who do you think should pay more to offset the liss to the exchequer

This thread is probably better suited the politics btw i cam move it if you want

Hollister11 · 03-01-2017 2:19pm

Stheno wrote: »

Who do you think should pay more to offset the liss to the exchequer

This thread is probably better suited the politics btw i cam move it if you want

If you thimk it's a better suit, Sure

Stheno · 03-01-2017 2:43pm

Moved from work and jobs new charter applies

greendom · 03-01-2017 2:47pm

what's the cost of such a cut and how will the difference be met ?

johnnyskeleton · 03-01-2017 3:46pm

greendom wrote: »

what's the cost of such a cut and how will the difference be met ?

I think it is a lobbying position from them rather than a costed genuine proposal. If they ask for 7% they might get 1-2% reduction.

boundlessSea · 03-01-2017 9:45pm

Current levels of taxation on income above the standard rate cutoff is immoral.

The tax paid on income between €40,000 and €50,000 is 49% (4900), this is far too high, a person earning €20,000 only pays 7.89% (€1500) in tax, people on lower income should be taxed around 15%, as it is not fair there is such a difference on taxation on income earned. People on lower incomes should pay a lot less in tax than higher earners, but not to this extent, as everyone benefits from state services like health care and education, and income distribution.

Rightwing · 03-01-2017 11:13pm

boundlessSea wrote: »

Current levels of taxation on income above the standard rate cutoff is immoral.

The tax paid on income between €40,000 and €50,000 is 49% (4900), this is far too high, a person earning €20,000 only pays 7.89% (€1500) in tax, people on lower income should be taxed around 15%, as it is not fair there is such a difference on taxation on income earned. People on lower incomes should pay a lot less in tax than higher earners, but not to this extent, as everyone benefits from state services like health care and education, and income distribution.

How else could we afford the massive PS wage bill ?

Paupers on €20K are barely surviving I'd imagine. Punters on the dole must be doing better than them unless you are entitled to family income supports and the 101 other benefits out there that we don't know about.

You can't really raise taxes on paupers, without cutting dole.

Permabear · 04-01-2017 1:48pm

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amcalester · 04-01-2017 1:59pm

Permabear wrote: »

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It's a great phrase the unions have come up with "Pay Restoration". It implies that salaries were unfairly or temporarily cut and thus should be restored.

It completely ignoring the fact that the unions agreed to the cuts and the 2008 salaries were too high in the first place.

Clampdown · 04-01-2017 2:08pm

I hate all this pay restoration nonsense. Outside of Dublin it is still difficult to find work. If we could get the still massive amount of unemployed people into full time work (not schemes), then sure, go ahead and restore pay/cut tax. But if you only do the latter than all you're doing is helping the people who were hurt least by the recession, who kept their jobs, not those of us left with nothing. We're still being left behind other than being forced into useless schemes that get you nowhere.

Borderfox · 04-01-2017 4:33pm

I'd prefer to see the tax rate left alone but the amount at which you pay the top rate raised

Permabear · 04-01-2017 6:40pm

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Billy86 · 04-01-2017 8:36pm

Take home pay, annually...

20k - €18,548.27 (92.7%)
25k - €21,756.94 (87%)
35k - €28,616.94 (81.8%)
50k - €36,266.94 (72.5%)
75k - €48,868.26 (65.2%)
100k - €60,868.26 (60.9%)
150k - €84,868.26 (56.6%)
250k - €132,868.26 (53.1%)
500k - €252,868.26 (50.6%)
1mn - €492,868.26 (49.3%)
1bn - €480,012,868.26 (48%) - because feck it, curiousity.

http://ie.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php (used this for my own paychecks a few times and it's always correct to the penny)

Halloween Jack · 04-01-2017 8:43pm

Permabear wrote: »

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If we are talking about entities making a contribution to society they profit from and being effectively 'out of the tax net' then its companies we want be focusing on. Not the workers who will spend the vast majority of their disposable income in the economy at large anyway, whereas our glorious multinationals will of course expatriate every penny 'earned' here

Permabear · 05-01-2017 1:58am

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fliball123 · 05-01-2017 10:52am

Permabear wrote: »

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Even without any payrises it has already reached 2008 pay levels the payrises being asked for will push it higher

oscarBravo · 05-01-2017 4:25pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Coupled with this, you can't increase tax rates on multinationals and leave them low for indigenous businesses, so you're disincentivising local businesses as well.

Like every simplistic answer to a complex problem, the "make businesses pay taxes so I don't have to" populist rallying cry makes very little sense on any level.

Godge · 05-01-2017 5:46pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Even without any payrises it has already reached 2008 pay levels the payrises being asked for will push it higher

That simply isn't true.

05-01-2017 6:37pm

Wish they'd do something for the likes of small earning self employed. Friend made 20k last year. He's self employed so had to give 20% of it to revenue. Would actually be better unemployed i'd imagine (not sure if he's entitled to medical card or the likes).

Stheno · 05-01-2017 7:46pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wish they'd do something for the likes of small earning self employed. Friend made 20k last year. He's self employed so had to give 20% of it to revenue. Would actually be better unemployed i'd imagine (not sure if he's entitled to medical card or the likes).

Is he single? If he was due to pay 1800 in paye, 800 in PRSI and 393 in USC if his credits are correct so a total of 2093 not 4000

Rightwing · 05-01-2017 7:53pm

Permabear wrote: »

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There may just be a few other reasons as well, such as, on the doorstep to the EU market, educated workforce, stable political environment, English speaking country.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Coupled with this, you can't increase tax rates on multinationals and leave them low for indigenous businesses, so you're disincentivising local businesses as well.

Like every simplistic answer to a complex problem, the "make businesses pay taxes so I don't have to" populist rallying cry makes very little sense on any level.

I'd imagine most indigenous businesses wouldn't mind paying the Apple/Google/Facebook tax rate.

05-01-2017 9:22pm

y'all seem confused.

public sector workers pay tax. they are taxpayers.

plenty of public sector workers earn in or around the 20k mark.

plenty of private sector workers werent particularly badly hit in the recession.

this thread was due to be about a proposed cut to the top rate of marginal tax, but in only two pages the above already needed pointing out.

Halloween Jack · 05-01-2017 9:30pm

Permabear wrote: »

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yeah they are here because our politicians are cheap to buy and they can decide themselves how much tax they pay. As for whether I like it or not? I don't like it, it's a strategy devoid of imagination that cannot succeed in the long term...

06-01-2017 1:36am

Stheno wrote: »

Is he single? If he was due to pay 1800 in paye, 800 in PRSI and 393 in USC if his credits are correct so a total of 2093 not 4000

I've no idea how it works out, but he had a reputable enough local accountant do it for him (so I'd presume it was all calculated correctly).

He is single, yeah. Accountant pretty much just said it's 20% of what you make.

That said, his accountant could well be a lazy git. If you've any further info on your comment there feel free to share as I'm not exactly in a very different boat myself.

Permabear · 06-01-2017 2:02pm

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Rightwing · 07-01-2017 7:08pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Too simplistic.
Considering Bulgaria and Bosnia have a 10% C tax rate, why haven't these countries been so successful ? Their must be more.

Companies are very select in where they choose to set up. Myriad of factors are always taken into account. Like it or not, Ireland scores well in most of these, including corporation tax rate.

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

Halloween Jack · 07-01-2017 7:43pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Too simplistic.
Considering Bulgaria and Bosnia have a 10% C tax rate, why haven't these countries been so successful ? Their must be more.

Companies are very select in where they choose to set up. Myriad of factors are always taken into account. Like it or not, Ireland scores well in most of these, including corporation tax rate.

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

They big companies aren't paying anywhere near 10%, that's why they are here, The sweetheart deals they get make sure of that.

Suryavarman · 08-01-2017 1:02am

Halloween Jack wrote: »

If we are talking about entities making a contribution to society they profit from and being effectively 'out of the tax net' then its companies we want be focusing on. Not the workers who will spend the vast majority of their disposable income in the economy at large anyway, whereas our glorious multinationals will of course expatriate every penny 'earned' here

The burden of corporation tax mostly falls on the shoulders of workers. If you increase corporation tax then you are just going to reduce wages.

Halloween Jack wrote: »

They big companies aren't paying anywhere near 10%, that's why they are here, The sweetheart deals they get make sure of that.

There are few loopholes in the Irish corporate tax code. Pretty much every MNC here is paying over 10% and close to 12.5% on their Irish profits.

Halloween Jack · 08-01-2017 1:29am

Suryavarman wrote: »

The burden of corporation tax mostly falls on the shoulders of workers. If you increase corporation tax then you are just going to reduce wages.

There are few loopholes in the Irish corporate tax code. Pretty much every MNC here is paying over 10% and close to 12.5% on their Irish profits.

Both of those points are absolute tripe

ancapailldorcha · 08-01-2017 1:31am

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Both of those points are absolute tripe

Post more constructively please.

Rightwing · 08-01-2017 1:41am

Suryavarman wrote: »

The burden of corporation tax mostly falls on the shoulders of workers. If you increase corporation tax then you are just going to reduce wages.

There are few loopholes in the Irish corporate tax code. Pretty much every MNC here is paying over 10% and close to 12.5% on their Irish profits.

Our system is flawed, the Apple case has proven this. It will be taken out of our hands soon, and the sooner the better. We are a very competitive nation so there will be a bit of crying, but we need to more mature in outlook. We don't hold the aces, that should be clear to all.

Wheeliebin30 · 08-01-2017 1:57pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Our system is flawed, the Apple case has proven this. It will be taken out of our hands soon, and the sooner the better. We are a very competitive nation so there will be a bit of crying, but we need to more mature in outlook. We don't hold the aces, that should be clear to all.

Apple pay 12.5% corporation tax on its profits in this country like every other company.

You're simply wrong.

jcon1913 · 08-01-2017 2:09pm

Stheno wrote: »

Who do you think should pay more to offset the liss to the exchequer

This thread is probably better suited the politics btw i cam move it if you want

Eh large multinationals. We could

1. Increase Employers PRSI ti the level of say Czech republic ( 10.75% now to say 25% )

2. Increase minimum wage with knock on increases throughout the economy to rebalance the share that labour gets versus the share capital gets

oscarBravo · 08-01-2017 2:47pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Eh large multinationals. We could

1. Increase Employers PRSI ti the level of say Czech republic ( 10.75% now to say 25% )

2. Increase minimum wage with knock on increases throughout the economy to rebalance the share that labour gets versus the share capital gets

It really would be nice if people proposing these half-baked ideas would get it into their heads that the majority of employers in this country are not large multinationals, and pause long enough to contemplate the effect of their proposals on small indigenous companies.

Idbatterim · 08-01-2017 2:50pm

we always hear about the benefits of low taxes, corporation tax. So someone tell me, why taxing labour to death at the marginal rate is a good idea! Of course its moronic, but its politically very difficult. Rectifying decades of ****e decision making. Get way more into the tax net, water charges and proper property taxes!

Remove the outrageous and immoral burden on higher income earners!

Also I would agree with the 45% as the absolute highest rate, regardless of income!

Idioteque · 08-01-2017 3:06pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Apple pay 12.5% corporation tax on its profits in this country like every other company.

You're simply wrong.

Eh where are you getting that from?...sure the whole case against currently stemmed from..."The executive arm of the European Union concluded that Ireland granted undue tax benefits to the U.S. tech giant, which is illegal under EU state aid rules, allowing Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014."

jcon1913 · 08-01-2017 3:08pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

It really would be nice if people proposing these half-baked ideas would get it into their heads that the majority of employers in this country are not large multinationals, and pause long enough to contemplate the effect of their proposals on small indigenous companies.

All companies benefit from services provided by Irish govt

Labour has taken a smaller share of profits relative to capital in recent years. This would rebalance it.

Wheeliebin30 · 08-01-2017 3:16pm

Idioteque wrote: »

Eh where are you getting that from?...sure the whole case against currently stemmed from..."The executive arm of the European Union concluded that Ireland granted undue tax benefits to the U.S. tech giant, which is illegal under EU state aid rules, allowing Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014."

I said in Ireland. They have paid 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland.

Revenue have verified this. What happens in European countries is not our business.

And what you quoted is only an allegation. It's going to court.

So you're wrong.

Idioteque · 08-01-2017 3:24pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I said in Ireland. They have paid 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland.

Revenue have verified this. What happens in European countries is not our business.

And what you quoted is only an allegation. It's going to court.

So you're wrong.

If a company makes for example €1billion in Ireland but does some accounting trickery to make it €1million in Ireland, technically it pays 12.5% on €1million but that's not the point.

Back to the op...I think it would be a good thing if they could re-jig top rate of tax somehow but it's a political minefield so I wouldn't hold out any hope

Wheeliebin30 · 08-01-2017 3:26pm

Idioteque wrote: »

If a company makes for example €1billion in Ireland but does some accounting trickery to make it €1million in Ireland, technically it pays 12.5% on €1million but that's not the point.

Exactly it's not the point because that's not what apple did.

oscarBravo · 08-01-2017 4:34pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

All companies benefit from services provided by Irish govt

For which we are duly grateful, and for which we pay corporation tax, employers' PRSI, VAT on the margin between sales and cost of sales, and local authority rates.

Labour has taken a smaller share of profits relative to capital in recent years. This would rebalance it.

Sorry, but running a business is a pragmatic exercise for me, not an intellectual one.

jcon1913 · 08-01-2017 6:08pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

For which we are duly grateful, and for which we pay corporation tax, employers' PRSI, VAT on the margin between sales and cost of sales, and local authority rates. Sorry, but running a business is a pragmatic exercise for me, not an intellectual one.

Here something for your pragmatic exercise: we'll all be low wage serfs if these multinational companies get their away. They play countries off against each other.

Low wage workers spend most of their money spending it in local businesses maybe ones like yours.

"That will make us an uncompetitive country" I hear you cry - that's just part of the MNC schtick to keep us in our place

Suryavarman · 08-01-2017 10:15pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Both of those points are absolute tripe

Then you'll be well able to provide evidence contradicting those claims I assume?

Rightwing wrote: »

Our system is flawed, the Apple case has proven this. It will be taken out of our hands soon, and the sooner the better. We are a very competitive nation so there will be a bit of crying, but we need to more mature in outlook. We don't hold the aces, that should be clear to all.

The Apple case didn't prove we have a flawed system, it showed that other countries have flawed systems. Apple paid 12.5% taxation (or close to it) on its Irish profits. Ireland's tax system is designed to get 12.5% of all corporations' Irish profits. The Apple case shows that our taxation system is far better than every other country in Europe or the OECD.

jcon1913 wrote: »

Eh large multinationals. We could

1. Increase Employers PRSI ti the level of say Czech republic ( 10.75% now to say 25% )

2. Increase minimum wage with knock on increases throughout the economy to rebalance the share that labour gets versus the share capital gets

In the medium to long term the cost of employers PRSI is borne entirely by the employee. All that such a policy would do is reduce wages by ~14%.

Most evidence on the matter points to the negative effects outweighing the positives when the minimum wage exceeds 50% of the median wage. Ireland's minimum wage is closer to 60% of the median wage.

Idioteque wrote: »

Eh where are you getting that from?...sure the whole case against currently stemmed from..."The executive arm of the European Union concluded that Ireland granted undue tax benefits to the U.S. tech giant, which is illegal under EU state aid rules, allowing Apple to pay an effective corporate tax rate of 1 per cent on its European profits in 2003 down to 0.005 per cent in 2014."

Which is completely irrelevant to Ireland as Ireland only taxes countries based on their Irish profits, America is the only country that taxes companies based on their global profits.

jcon1913 · 08-01-2017 11:07pm

Survayarman said:

In the medium to long term the cost of employers PRSI is borne entirely by the employee. All that such a policy would do is reduce wages by ~14%.

End quote

Any proof / studies?

Survarman again:

Most evidence on the matter points to the negative effects outweighing the positives when the minimum wage exceeds 50% of the median wage. Ireland's minimum wage is closer to 60% of the median wage.

End quote

Proof / studies / reports?

FreudianSlippers · 10-01-2017 10:25am

jcon1913 wrote: »

Here something for your pragmatic exercise: we'll all be low wage serfs if these multinational companies get their away. They play countries off against each other.

Low wage workers spend most of their money spending it in local businesses maybe ones like yours.

"That will make us an uncompetitive country" I hear you cry - that's just part of the MNC schtick to keep us in our place

Large multinationals pay significantly higher salaries/benefits than other employers in Dublin.

Permabear · 10-01-2017 12:42pm

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hatrickpatrick · 10-01-2017 1:02pm

Tax bands in Ireland are ridiculous. There needs to be at least one extra tier, probably more.

Rightwing · 10-01-2017 2:24pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Large multinationals pay significantly higher salaries/benefits than other employers in Dublin.

Correct, apart from the PS, which wants to match and even surpass these salaries which is a serious concern.

Calls to slash the top rate of tax for Irish workers by a huge 7%

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