Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 11:05PM

rockatansky wrote: »

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

Exactly, a cul de sac echoing with faux outrage.

Think what it would mean for the future of this country if an Irish government made a stand and insisted the British removed their embargo and all the affected people on all sides got what they wanted from an open honest process?

That would be a huge unprecedented prize.

Jawgap · 11-12-2016 11:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you get to the bit where they tell you to develop your own critical faculties and read the writings and interpretations of both sides? I got a lot out of that, made me realise that history without the engagement of said faculties is fiction peppered with facts.

Well yeah........on my masters. Anyway, they wouldn't have let me get this far into my PhD (only 18 months to go!) if I didn't have the requisite faculties.

Btw, primary source material is far superior to secondary source stuff, even if it is mor difficult to work with.

rockatansky · 11-12-2016 11:12PM

billy few mates wrote: »

I for one hope Gerry Adams remains at the helm of Spin Feign for many many years to come, he's the gift that keeps on giving as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 11:17PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Well yeah........on my masters. Anyway, they wouldn't have let me get this far into my PhD (only 18 months to go!) if I didn't have the requisite faculties.

Btw, primary source material is far superior to secondary source stuff, even if it is mor difficult to work with.

Yeh, I have some of that primary source stuff on the Heavy Gang and other activities of the Irish security forces.

BTW, not all historians with PhD's and Masters manage to impress readers. Bargain Books beside Eason's is full of their work. Do you know it.

Jawgap · 11-12-2016 11:26PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, I have some of that primary source stuff on the Heavy Gang and other activities of the Irish security forces.

BTW, not all historians with PhD's and Masters manage to impress readers. Bargain Books beside Eason's is full of their work. Do you know it.

Lucky them. I'd love to walk into a physical book store and see something I wrote, even if it was in bargain books!

Anyway, my stuff is very boring - of interest only to 'statos' and anoraks like myself, although it did get me a 'walk on' part at a couple of fancy conferences, so there is that. I'm not doing it to get rich or even to give up the day job, I just like to read, a lot!

My advice would be to write something up using the material you have and send it for publication to somewhere like History Ireland.

billy few mates · 11-12-2016 11:31PM

rockatansky wrote: »

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 11:33PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Lucky them. I'd love to walk into a physical book store and see something I wrote, even if it was in bargain books!

Anyway, my stuff is very boring - of interest only to 'statos' and anoraks like myself, although it did get me a 'walk on' part at a couple of fancy conferences, so there is that. I'm not doing it to get rich or even to give up the day job, I just like to read, a lot!

My advice would be to write something up using the material you have and send it for publication to somewhere like History Ireland.

I think I'll wait for a truth process. Don't trust historians, victors or otherwise.

rockatansky · 11-12-2016 11:39PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

Not to their voters it wont. This type media and opposition hysterics is not really having the desired effect. When Gerry is on the Radio or when Dail time is spent reliving past instances related to the troubles, most people just turn it off or change over. In theory this should be damaging to Sinn Fein, but the reality is somewhat different.

billy few mates · 11-12-2016 11:41PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/noel-whelan-should-we-believe-gerry-adams-or-brian-stack-s-son-1.2897978

rockatansky · 11-12-2016 11:46PM

billy few mates wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/noel-whelan-should-we-believe-gerry-adams-or-brian-stack-s-son-1.2897978

It's an opinion piece. None of that is new information.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 11:47PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

As per the OP and the timewasting question. Do you think it would be better if we just locked up all the information and allowed people to consolidate their power like FF and FG did at the foundation of the state? Would that be healthier, more moral or just wonderfully expedient for the power hungry?

Godge · 12-12-2016 12:33AM

rockatansky wrote: »

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

People forget that between the Euro elections and the general election, only one party lost votes - Sinn Fein. Every other party saw an increase in the number of votes that they got. Now, it is normal to see an increase from Euro election to general election because of the higher turnout in the general election. It is almost unheard of to see a decrease in actual votes as happened Sinn Fein.

This fact has been conveniently forgotten everywhere except possibly in SF inner circles where it will have caused some worry.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 12:42AM

Godge wrote: »

People forget that between the Euro elections and the general election, only one party lost votes - Sinn Fein. Every other party saw an increase in the number of votes that they got. Now, it is normal to see an increase from Euro election to general election because of the higher turnout in the general election. It is almost unheard of to see a decrease in actual votes as happened Sinn Fein.

This fact has been conveniently forgotten everywhere except possibly in SF inner circles where it will have caused some worry.

I have yet to see a committed political party who will give up the ghost because of fluctuations in votes. Perhaps those ones that were set up because politicians couldn't get their own way, like the PD's or Renua maybe, but a party like SF I think you might be waiting.

Godge · 12-12-2016 12:44AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As you were about lies, we can all assess what he was at. And that was before it was alleged TDs were being approached to name the two. At least Farrell had his 15 mins I suppose.

Nothing to do with Farrell's 15 minutes.

Mary Lou's breach of parliamentary privilege to name Des O'Malley has come back to bite SF in the arse, and even then Farrell didn't breach parliamentary privilege.

Didn't stop the SF acolytes in the media whinging and crying about it.

Godge · 12-12-2016 12:45AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have yet to see a committed political party who will give up the ghost because of fluctuations in votes. Perhaps those ones that were set up because politicians couldn't get their own way, like the PD's or Renua maybe, but a party like SF I think you might be waiting.

Where did I say that they would or should give up the ghost?

I just pointed out their unique achievement.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 12:49AM

Godge wrote: »

Where did I say that they would or should give up the ghost?

I just pointed out their unique achievement.

How many slumps in vote have FF or FG had over the years? Your point is abouyt nothing really.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 12:57AM

Watching the Week In Politics there and a few thought's:

When will a journalist ask a FF or FG politician what they think the consequences of getting Adams to inform would be. Or has said politician ever had to do something that was, in their opinion, for the greater good.
Or ask, why is it that some equal Dail time is not given to attacking the lack of cooperation from the British on full disclosure.

Why has no journalist challenged the assertion made again and again that a death in the republic could not be related to the conflict. The ultimate insult to those affected and partitionism gone mad.

Fleawuss · 12-12-2016 01:03AM

The Stack murder was an attack on the Irish state. The legitimacy of Ireland was never accepted by Provos and others who tried to monopolies the name of Republican for themselves. That's the essential problem of SFs attempts to get into govt. For years they denied the legitimacy of the state and now they want to run it. Adams is caught between that past and that future, hence all the emphasis on truth commissions for everyone. He wants the past dealt with in one big lump and he wants to lump the murders of Gardai and soldiers and prison officers in there too.

I think he should be told to fcuk off. Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The only truth commission we need is a court of law.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 01:15AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

The Stack murder was an attack on the Irish state. The legitimacy of Ireland was never accepted by Provos and others who tried to monopolies the name of Republican for themselves. That's the essential problem of SFs attempts to get into govt. For years they denied the legitimacy of the state and now they want to run it. Adams is caught between that past and that future, hence all the emphasis on truth commissions for everyone. He wants the past dealt with in one big lump and he wants to lump the murders of Gardai and soldiers and prison officers in there too.

I think he should be told to fcuk off. Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The only truth commission we need is a court of law.

If Ireland wasn't involved in the conflict/war why did it spend our money securing a border for unionists and the British, why did it censor Irish citizens, deploy and provision a Heavy Gang?

Of course we were all part of the conflict/war, why would Ireland be part of the agreement that saw it end if it had nothing to do with us?
Regina Doherty revisionist nonsense to be honest with you.
*We won't mention Jack Lynch's scardey cat attempt to get involved.

12-12-2016 01:17AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Ireland wasn't involved in the conflict/war why did it spend our money securing a border for unionists and the British, why did it censor Irish citizens, deploy and provision a Heavy Gang?

Of course we were all part of the conflict/war, why would Ireland be part of the agreement that saw it end if it had nothing to do with us?
Regina Doherty revisionist nonsense to be honest with you.
*We won't mention Jack Lynch's scardey cat attempt to get involved.

Where did Ireland secure a border?
I lived beside the border and I never saw any Irish army securing the border?

Fleawuss · 12-12-2016 01:30AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Ireland wasn't involved in the conflict/war why did it spend our money securing a border for unionists and the British, why did it censor Irish citizens, deploy and provision a Heavy Gang?

Of course we were all part of the conflict/war, why would Ireland be part of the agreement that saw it end if it had nothing to do with us?
Regina Doherty revisionist nonsense to be honest with you.
*We won't mention Jack Lynch's scardey cat attempt to get involved.

Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The border was secured (badly) to try to stop the country being used by lunatics as a base for their lunacy. The border was secured for Ireland. Section 31 was used to stop propaganda from the revisionists and rejectionists in the Provos provoking more bloodshed. But the fact remains that Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. Now the self styled rejectionists of the Provos might have felt that were at war with Ireland but that was just them.

Ireland was part of the agreement on Good Friday to give an all Ireland dimension to the settlement to remind Unionist idiots and Provo idiots that a United Ireland is an aspiration of real Irish republicanism and endures despite the lunacy the Provos and the British murder gangs brought. But Ireland was not at war. We also had to give up the constitutional claim to the North because of the failure of the Provo murder campaign.

Revisionism is what SF have been trying to do since they accepted that they were riddled with spies and double agents, had lost support in their heartlands for violence and that they had achieved none of their aims.

Finally, I don't like you trying to use "we" about Ireland. For all of the the troubles the majority of voters rejected the Provos. SF need to ditch the Adams generation and see if they can find political traction outside welfare and working class estates. That won't happen as long as people remember the blood and carnage.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 01:30AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Where did Ireland secure a border?
I lived beside the border and I never saw any Irish army securing the border?

Wow. Just wow!
My town had over 80 gardai stationed in it at one time, today there are 2 or 3.
Have a read,
http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/policing-the-border-during-the-troubles/

12-12-2016 01:31AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wow. Just wow!
My town had over 80 gardai stationed in it at one time, today there are 2 or 3.
Have a read,
http://humanrights.ie/civil-liberties/policing-the-border-during-the-troubles/

Yep, Gardai in a station, same as my own town.
Not securing a border though!
The only army securing the border were English army.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 01:43AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep, Gardai in a station, same as my own town.
Not securing a border though!
The only army securing the border were English army.

Sorry, can't be bothered debating this one.
They were just resting in the station, for free. Okie doke

*It was a British Army BTW.

12-12-2016 01:48AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, can't be bothered debating this one.
They were just resting in the station, for free. Okie doke

*It was a British Army BTW.

Oh I know who they were & why they were there.
Maybe because Of The IRA?

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 01:49AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The border was secured (badly) to try to stop the country being used by lunatics as a base for their lunacy. estates. .

The only bit of that I need to quote. We agree, they were involved then.

I disagree on describing them as lunatics.

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 01:53AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh I know who they were & why they were there.
Maybe because Of The IRA?

You know who who were?

You know they were the British Army, but you called them the English Army?

12-12-2016 01:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know who who were?

You know they were the British Army, but you called them the English Army?

Listen buttercup, I know people in that army & they call themselves English & British.
Maybe a big deal for you, not for them.
And really not important

weldoninhio · 12-12-2016 02:00AM

kbannon wrote: »

...and yet the majority of people choose anyone but SF.

And yet the gained 5x the seats they had after the last election.

Who do you vote for?? Not many stories about FF handcuffing people to carts and dropping live grenades into their pockets during the War of Independence. But "that's the past" now

FrancieBrady · 12-12-2016 02:02AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Listen buttercup, I know people in that army & they call themselves English & British.
Maybe a big deal for you, not for them.
And really not important

It is when you couple it with the rather bewildering statement that we didn't aid in securing a border.

Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

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