How come Tinder is so difficult?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:08PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

How is building your self esteem by wearing makeup "pushing down" a problem. At the end of the day we are here to enjoy life and you can't do that without self esteem.
It isn't as if the world is going to run out of skin concealer in the next few years and these young women are going to have to go cold turkey and suffer the consequences of their decision to wear makeup in the first place whilst those who go au natural live in this happy bubble for ever.

Same with shaving. Being clean shaven isn't natural in itself. Whilst it is done for health (cleanliness) reasons, it is done to look good, respectable and attractive also.

Because it’s a crutch, you’re not actually fixing your self esteem issues.

It’s like saying telling a guy with the issue about his height that you know these shoes that can give him an extra three inches in height. Is that solving his problem or will he feel just as bad in a situation where he cant wear those shoes?

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:08PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Twist my words however you want, anyone who properly wants to read my post will understand the point I am making.

Again you put forward your opinion that every woman does it out of complete insecurity and that is the only reason they buy their mascarra. You are entirely wrong with that. But it's your opinion. If you are a girl and have those insecurities, that is your personal mindset.
If you are a guy and reading into the mindset of every woman, good luck to you!

I didn't say that anywhere. You seem to be misinterpreting me.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:09PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Then why cant we have an honest open discussion about makeup like we can about height? Once it is mentioned people come out of the woodwork in defense of the right to wear makeup.

On famous people you could say the exact same about most male actors who are made to appear taller in movies.

There is plenty of talk about the reasons people wear makeup. In fact you are involved in one now!

Goya · 08-12-2016 06:10PM

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not arguing men don't have insecurities. They do, of course. But that's beside the point.

What's at issue here is whether women wear make-up because they are insecure about their looks, and you all seem to be admitting it, but not admitting it at the same time. It's farcical at this stage.

You know, it's ok to have insecurities. You're not perfect. Nobody is.

Yeah of course most people have insecurities. Someone with none would probably be obnoxious - but why just the focus on make-up? Are you saying simply dressing up to look nice on a night out = a sign of insecurity and that it would be healthier to make no effort?

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 06:10PM

zulutango wrote: »

I didn't say that anywhere. You seem to be misinterpreting me.

You didn't explicitly however you made several posts scoffing at the idea that women wear make up as a form of expression

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:11PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

We're having one, but some posters aren't interested in acknowledging the pov of others and are insisting that their opinion on the matter is fact.

Well it's not when a side has completely hypocritical opinions when it comes to two issues of insecurity and cannot explain why.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 06:11PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Well it's not when a side has completely hypocritical opinions when it comes to two issues of insecurity and cannot explain why.

hypocritical how?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:13PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

because makeup is a fashion item!!! is wearing fashionable clothes also a sign of insecurity ?

If you cant go out the front door without wearing clothes that are not high end fashion then yes, it is a sign of insecurity.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:14PM

Flimpson wrote: »

Yeah of course most people have insecurities. Someone with none would probably be obnoxious - but why just the focus on make-up? Are you saying simply dressing up to look nice on a night out = a sign of insecurity and that it would be healthier to make no effort?

I'm just responding to those who have disavowed the notion that wearing make-up and insecurity are linked. They clearly are. Now, it doesn't apply to the women here, because they wear make-up as a form of artistic expression, which is a different thing altogether and more linked to style/fashion/grooming.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:15PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Well it's not when a side has completely hypocritical opinions when it comes to two issues of insecurity and cannot explain why.

At least you recognise this mindframe you have. Progress on your behalf.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:16PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

You didn't explicitly however you made several posts scoffing at the idea that women wear make up as a form of expression

Actually, I didn't. I agreed make-up can be used a form of artistic expression.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:17PM

zulutango wrote: »

Actually, I didn't. I agreed make-up can be used a form of artistic expression.

Again, progress. And noone disagreed with you that some women are insecure about ageing skin.
So what is the debate?

Surreptitious · 08-12-2016 06:19PM

Anyways I got no dates on Tinder, only people looking for sex so will delete it. Not like I expected anything from it either way. I can see how men would struggle on it for sure.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:20PM

zulutango wrote: »

I'm just responding to those who have disavowed the notion that wearing make-up and insecurity are linked. They clearly are. Now, it doesn't apply to the women here, because they wear make-up as a form of artistic expression, which is a different thing altogether and more linked to style/fashion/grooming.

Quote some posts here which wholly disagree that some women wear makeup out of insecurity and then elaborate on that. This isn't a forum of debate if noone is disagreeing with this point.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:22PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Quote some posts here which wholly disagree that some women wear makeup out of insecurity and then elaborate on that. This isn't a forum of debate if noone is disagreeing with this point.

What are you disagreeing with so?

Goya · 08-12-2016 06:23PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I understand saying not to let height define you but many women let makeup define them and I have found from having this conversation before that there is a deafening silence when it comes to making similar harsh but fair comments towards them.

I know 4 women who I have been close to who refuse to be seen without makeup and others who I know who complain about not getting enough sleep yet feel like they have to get up 1.5 hours before they leave to get themselves ready for work.

I just don’t see the same level of ‘get over it’ when it comes to using makeup as a crutch, it seems like it’s a taboo subject amongst women to speak against.

Just seeing this now as tis a very busy thread!

Foxtrol, the above use of make-up definitely seems to be borne out of insecurity and people who insist it isn't, seem deluded.

In my case though, I wear minimal eye make-up and lip-liner, and no foundation. And that's it. And only to events, the way everyone gets groomed for events. Not to work, not to the shops, not out walking/running. So I do object to being told that I and others wear make-up purely due to being insecure about my looks, because my relationship with make-up is nothing like that of the women you know.

Now if I was told I can't make eye contact with people when I walk into a room because of insecurity/shyness, then I'd totally agree. I have insecurities like anyone but I don't get the zoning in on make-up for any woman - it depends! Main factors are - amount worn, reasons for wearing it, and how frequently it's worn.

mzungu · 08-12-2016 06:25PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you cant go out the front door without wearing clothes that are not high end fashion then yes, it is a sign of insecurity.

Well, I'd argue that's more a sign of consumerism, rather than anything to do with insecurity.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:25PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Again, progress. And noone disagreed with you that some women are insecure about ageing skin.
So what is the debate?

Come off it! They all disagreed back when the point was made. :pac:

But now it seems you all agree.

Now, what proportion of women do you think wear make-up as a form of artistic expression and what proportion wear it out of insecurity?

Olishi4 · 08-12-2016 06:25PM

Amirah Alive Sediment wrote: »

The hostility that comes up in the make up conversation, and the peculiar insistence that in relation to make up making a moderate effort to improve your appearance as you see it means you're insecure... I can see how that leads to defensiveness.

Of course it can be a sign of insecurity. Of course it can be taken to damaging extremes. But that's not true in the majority of cases. It's something people do because they enjoy or because like most adults who leave the house they try and look their best. If you want to shoehorn the word insecurity into that it's up to you.

I like wearing makeup. My mam only wore makeup when she was going somewhere special but I'd sit and watch her and talk to her while she got ready. Also remember when I was about 5 or 6 getting my hands on some of her nail varnish and destroying the place.

I don't wear that much. I dont know if its insecurity but more just how I like to present myself when I'm out.

I started experimenting with makeup when I was about 14 and the reactions of other people where funny. My mams friends were like "awh she's getting so grown up", my own peers were like "why?", a few lads my own age made out like I was vain, my mam and dad thought it was funny, my older brother didn't even notice but a few of his pals did and all that over a bit of mascara :pac: I just thought it looked nice!

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:28PM

Olishi4 wrote: »

I just thought it looked nice!

Did you not think you looked nice without it?

Olishi4 · 08-12-2016 06:33PM

zulutango wrote: »

Did you not think you looked nice without it?

Sure but I was just trying out a different look. There were many lads at the same time who had that curtain hairstyle dripping with hair gel.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:33PM

zulutango wrote: »

What are you disagreeing with so?

I am disagreeing with what you are insinuating by * these posts. You are backtracking somewhat but your posts indicate here that there are posters here who are saying women wear make up wholly for artistic expression. Now if you aren't saying that or mean different, perhaps word your posts differently as we can only go by what you are posting.

*

zulutango wrote: »

The women here say that make-up is to make them look nicer but it's not because they're insecure about their looks. It's a remarkable twist of logic.

Some have claimed it's a form of artistic expression, which is probably true for some, but I doubt it's true for the majority.

It's almost as if stubbornness is taking over, and getting in the way of honest discussion. Despite saying it's about insecurity in a roundabout way, they can't actually admit that it's about insecurity. Because then they'd be (a) admitting to insecurity when obviously they are perfect and (b) wrong.

zulutango wrote: »

So, you're saying it is linked to insecurity about their looks so? Finally ..

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's about insecurity. You seem to agree.

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not arguing men don't have insecurities. They do, of course. But that's beside the point.

What's at issue here is whether women wear make-up because they are insecure about their looks, and you all seem to be admitting it, but not admitting it at the same time. It's farcical at this stage.

You know, it's ok to have insecurities. You're not perfect. Nobody is.

zulutango wrote: »

I'm just responding to those who have disavowed the notion that wearing make-up and insecurity are linked. .

zulutango wrote: »

Come off it! They all disagreed back when the point was made. :pac:

But now it seems you all agree.

Now, what proportion of women do you think wear make-up as a form of artistic expression and what proportion wear it out of insecurity?

Foxtrol · 08-12-2016 06:37PM

dottie_lottie wrote: »

hypocritical how?

Because posters are happy to give advice to a guy who feels pressure over his height to move past it while twist themselves in knots not to make similar comments when it comes to discussing women who have insecurities about makeup.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:39PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Because posters are happy to give advice to a guy who feels pressure over his height to move past it while twist themselves in knots not to make similar comments when it comes to discussing women who have insecurities about makeup.

How would you advise him? Noone told him simply to get over it. They advised him why and what ways he should approach the mental predicament he is in.
Avoid the question if you wish.

zulutango · 08-12-2016 06:39PM

The very first response was when somebody said there was a thousand reasons why people wear make up. I asked to list some. Somebody else said artistic expression. I said fine, but really is it mostly about artistic expression? Pretty much everybody disagreed that it was about insecurity. Now you're saying that it is to some extent.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 06:45PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Because posters are happy to give advice to a guy who feels pressure over his height to move past it while twist themselves in knots not to make similar comments when it comes to discussing women who have insecurities about makeup.

I'll quote electro bitch for you then...

Amirah Alive Sediment wrote: »

And I don't know about everyone else here but I've been having conversations about looks and insecurity with other women since I was like fourteen. If I had a euro for every time I've said or been told "shut up and stop complaining you daft bitch you look great" I'd be rich.

I know women who are the kind never to be seen without makeup, and of course i've told them(albeit in different words) "to get over it" "noone is actually looking at you" "noone cares what you look like" "you'll ruin your skin with all that" "it's not good for your skin to workout with makeup on"

But at no point in the thread were we discussing what to say to women who wear a lot of makeup out of insecurity, nor did any women come on talking about wearing makeup out of insecurity, that's why noone has brought it up.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-12-2016 06:46PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Because posters are happy to give advice to a guy who feels pressure over his height to move past it while twist themselves in knots not to make similar comments when it comes to discussing women who have insecurities about makeup.

But in the context of this thread those are hypothetical women and real guys. There aren't any women here saying they think how they look without makeup is crippling them romantically, what there are is posters evoking the spirit of those women in order to... I dunno, criticise the advice given? Because they have a whataboutery fetish?

And then women responding from our own perspective, which is all we can do. The explanations being given are very easy to understand.

Goya · 08-12-2016 06:46PM

zulutango wrote: »

The very first response was when somebody said there was a thousand reasons why people wear make up. I asked to list some. Somebody else said artistic expression. I said fine, but really is it mostly about artistic expression? Pretty much everybody disagreed that it was about insecurity. Now you're saying that it is to some extent.

Masking insecurity is definitely one of the reasons for wearing (usually a lot of) make-up.
I think people were objecting to the way you were saying earlier that wearing any bit of make-up at all, including just on a night out to dress up (the way nearly everyone dresses up on a night out) was a sign of insecurity.

The Talking Bread · 08-12-2016 06:47PM

zulutango wrote: »

The very first response was when somebody said there was a thousand reasons why people wear make up. I asked to list some. Somebody else said artistic expression. I said fine, but really is it mostly about artistic expression? Pretty much everybody disagreed that it was about insecurity. Now you're saying that it is to some extent.

quote the particular post and it might help to see the point you are makin (arguing about)

And yes, makeup is now a fashion accessory that almost every woman in their late teens, 20s, 30s and beyond adorn. So I a not sure how you can evaluate who doesn't or who does wear it purely out of insecurity?

Triceratops Ballet · 08-12-2016 06:49PM

zulutango wrote: »

The very first response was when somebody said there was a thousand reasons why people wear make up. I asked to list some. Somebody else said artistic expression. I said fine, but really is it mostly about artistic expression? Pretty much everybody disagreed that it was about insecurity. Now you're saying that it is to some extent.

Noone has denied that some women wear it out of insecurity, we said that people who say ALL women wear makeup out of insecurity are wrong, and we've offered some of the alternative reasons women wear makeup.

How come Tinder is so difficult?

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