Should Private Schools be Closed?

steddyeddy wrote: »

I would be in favour of parents having to pay into the school their child goes to.

So how will the "poorer" students get by then? You give out about a handful of private schools in existence but when push comes to shove you want to abolish free education!


You are a mass of contradictions.

Could you clarify the system you want.

And what about grind schools etc.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I

I used to give grinds to students at an inner city school. It was soul crushing because the students were no less smart than the rich suburbanite children. Some were intensely bright, worldwise, and cynical beyond their years but the problems that were stacked against them were absurd. The exact opposite of a meritocracy. It was sickening and actually turned me into the rabid socialist I am today.

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I could go around my old school today and improve it 100% if I was allowed to fire some of the "teachers" that worked there.

What problems are these and how would ridding the country of private education solve or alleviate them?

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll get back to these posts after work but I'll start by repeating one fact backed up by two pieces of evidence. I don't want to get rid of private schools. A: I briefly went to one and B: a charity I was involved in paid for disadvantaged kids to go to them.

The difference in my results and the results of the disadvantaged students after private school was significant.

I don't want to get rid of the top schools but that doesn't mean that I think the two tier situation that exists is right.

It isn't a 2 tier system. That is exaggerated. All schools provide the same curriculum. It is up to the school management to ensure its applied successfully. Some schools do it better than other. Some children have advantages entering education due to parental motivation and social skills which allow them to prosper academically.
I would prefer my kids to go to a good school regardless. Of course. But I wouldn't judge the merits of a school simply due to the fact I have to pay a few quid for them to enter it.

You qualify your opinion by using an example of a summer school? (You said earlier you attended it for a year yesterday, no?? apologies if I am wrong, I just recall something you said like that!). That was one long Summer! Just a joke btw! I know you didnt mean it that way!

I mean, these "summer" schools are generally grind schools of some sort. They arent basic educational models that represent a day to day version of a private school.

I went to CBS in Kildare and have a mix of friends from Newbridge College and public school backgrounds. Similarly in University, similar split. No academic difference, social skills disparity that can be equated by the fact we went to different schools. Obviously are family backgrounds are different. I come from a farming background. Some others may have very wealthy families. I have achieved academically and surpassed many of the private school guys. I start an apprenticeship in a solicitor firm next week.

Some of the lads and girls who went to Newbridge college are qualified electricians, army officers, guards whilst others are down the "office proffessional " route.

4 guys from my year of LC (about 120 students) are doctors, some others are pharmacists, I know a guy who nearly went to live on bloody Mars!!

It was a well managed school. Like most other public schools. Obviously you will have some poor schools but all teachers comme from the same academic background so its not the fact that you have to pay into one school and not into the other that is the problem here.

It is more a focus on the actual pupils themselves and a lot to do with parenting support as well.

The Talking Bread wrote: »

It isn't a 2 tier system. That is exaggerated. All schools provide the same curriculum. It is up to the school management to ensure its applied successfully. Some schools do it better than other. Some children have advantages entering education due to parental motivation and social skills which allow them to prosper academically.
I would prefer my kids to go to a good school regardless. Of course. But I wouldn't judge the merits of a school simply due to the fact I have to pay a few quid for them to enter it.

You qualify your opinion by using an example of a summer school? (You said earlier you attended it for a year yesterday, no?? apologies if I am wrong, I just recall something you said like that!). That was one long Summer! Just a joke btw! I know you didnt mean it that way!

I mean, these "summer" schools are generally grind schools of some sort. They arent basic educational models that represent a day to day version of a private school.

I went to CBS in Kildare and have a mix of friends from Newbridge College and public school backgrounds. Similarly in University, similar split. No academic difference, social skills disparity that can be equated by the fact we went to different schools. Obviously are family backgrounds are different. I come from a farming background. Some others may have very wealthy families. I have achieved academically and surpassed many of the private school guys. I start an apprenticeship in a solicitor firm next week.

Some of the lads and girls who went to Newbridge college are qualified electricians, army officers, guards whilst others are down the "office proffessional " route.

4 guys from my year of LC (about 120 students) are doctors, some others are pharmacists, I know a guy who nearly went to live on bloody Mars!!

It was a well managed school. Like most other public schools. Obviously you will have some poor schools but all teachers comme from the same academic background so its not the fact that you have to pay into one school and not into the other that is the problem here.

It is more a focus on the actual pupils themselves and a lot to do with parenting support as well.

I think when you have a system that funds schools - some of which have swimming pools, weight rooms and golf courses attached to them, and some of which beg parents for money so they can extend the photocopy ration by several sheets per pupil per term you have a system that is not two tiered - it is many tiered and the gap between the top and bottom tiers is Everest-like........

......and just because all teachers go through the same system doesn't mean they are all equally good.....and just because they are all paid the same doesn't mean there aren't inducements to work in certain schools......

.....would you prefer to work in a school of modest class sizes, well equipped class rooms, with ample supplies and Christmas presents that include vouchers to some of the best restaurants in Dublin.......or work in one where the classes are crowded, supplies are scarce, equipment is obsolete and parents are as likely to verbally abuse you as thank you at Christmas.

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Again, that is the school management and Department of Education's fault. That won't be solved by getting rid of private education schools. In fact it has little correlation.

"Punishing" and "rewarding" were 2 words used yesterday to describe the respective impact on children who enter the public or private systems.

It is simple supply and demands economics.

Having to play rugby (in some private schools, it is part of the curriculum essentially!!) or being able to have a swim after school isn't an academic booster!
Those resources are outside schooling system anyway. Then it boils down to the individual pupil themselves whether they engage in them. The private school kids are pating for these resources and if a parent has worked in a manner that they can afford to pay for a school with such resources, so be it.

And, yes, from speaking to my friends there are plenty of awful teachers in private schools also. Just like any school.

Yes it will.

If you are running an operation where a significant proportion of your costs are borne by a third party then that frees up funds for use elsewhere.

The fact is private schools having their salary budget covered by DES means they have discretionary funds available that public schools can only dream about......and that's only from fees, before you get on to the 4 and 5 figure 'voluntary' contributions they hit parents up for.

Really, if it was such a level playing field wouldn't all schools, have swimming pools attached to them

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes it will.

If you are running an operation where a significant proportion of your costs are borne by a third party then that frees up funds for use elsewhere.

The fact is private schools having their salary budget covered by DES means they have discretionary funds available that public schools can only dream about......and that's only from fees, before you get on to the 4 and 5 figure 'voluntary' contributions they hit parents up for.

Really, if it was such a level playing field wouldn't all schools, have swimming pools attached to them

Exactly

Don't know of too many public schools with weights rooms either

Oh, and we had a weigh room in our school, a library, gaelic pitches, an indoor soccer pitch, a vending machine and a prefab where students snuck behind for a fag!

Noone gave a cr$p about or used the first two! The others, we wouldn't have got through school without them! #ProperResources

The Talking Bread wrote: »

No, because public schools aren't afforded such amenities. It doesn't mean students won't prosper academically or learn to swim. It is far from the be all and end all having such resources available. They are merely attractions and benefits of paying high fees.

The fact is the backgrounds these kids come from play a major part in academic . Having a weights room and swimming pool doesn't mean a damn thing if your parents don't motivate you or you aren't able to apply yourself academically.

The way SteddyEddy was going on was that once you enter the domain of attending a public school your chances to succeed academically decrease significantly.


Of course, having better disciplinary mechanisms in place and more motivated and monitored teachers over you helps but it is not the be all and end all if you can't apply yourself either.

That's one way of looking at it - of course if you invert the logic and normalise on public school performance you could say that private schools give a bump and "your chances to succeed academically decrease increase significantly."

From today's Irish Times.....

Each year, the tables show very large numbers of students who go to college attended schools in socially advantaged communities, and that they tend to opt predominantly for universities and teacher-training. Higher Education Authority (HEA) data shows these institutions have the lowest drop-out rates (from 4 per cent in teacher-training colleges to 9 per cent in universities). Is that surprising, given the supports these students receive from their parents?

The HEA data also shows students from schools in less-advantaged communities get far fewer places in high-points university courses, and tend to progress to institutes of technology. HEA shows these students have more difficulties completing college, with drop-out rates of up to 20 per cent common. Student Universal Support Ireland (Susi) figures show a large proportion of successful grant applicants go to ITs rather than universities, confirming the social-class divide reflected in institutions’ student intake.

Pupils from private schools are tightening their grip on places in high-points third-level courses, despite millions of euro being spent on programmes to widen access to higher education.

Some 20 of the top 25 schools which send the highest proportion of students to high-points courses are fee-paying, according to figures published in The Irish Times today.

The annual Feeder Schools supplement gives a school-by-school breakdown of how many students are progressing to higher education and where they are going.

While there are just over 50 fee-paying schools nationally out of about 700 secondary schools, they are increasingly dominating many of the top university places.